8 ms·

Witness Accounts Show the Power of False Memory

44 points by mturmon 11y ago

TillE 11y ago
I thought it was really odd that this never got discussed during the whole Brian Williams thing. Sure, sometimes people deliberately embellish their stories, but memory is a delicate thing that changes over time without you ever noticing. It's very very common to clearly remember something that never actually happened.
- tacoman 11y ago
  Yeah, definitely. I have a few memories like this. I can very clearly remember seeing the Easter bunny when I was a kid. Obviously this never happened, but I can describe the scenario and what the human-sized rabbit looked like. Also, I have a memory of my brother which is logistically impossible for me to have. These are just examples of things I realize aren't real memories because the situations were never possible. I was recently talking to some coworkers about a problem we had about 3 years ago. We all had different accounts of some of the details, but we were all about equally certain about our recollection of events. After digging through some old email, it turns out only one of the four of us was right. The fallibility of our memories is something I think most of us significantly underestimate.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    My favorite is having a chain of memories where A happened after B happened after C happened after D happened after A. At least one of them is wrong, but I don't know which, and unless I think about the entire chain at the same time, they all make sense.
  - emodendroket 11y ago
    I was completely convinced I played as Batman in Killer Instinct at the Wiz or something at a display kiosk until years later I looked it up and of course Batman never appeared in Killer Instinct.
- ohitsdom 11y ago
  I'm not sure the Brian Williams situation falls under this type of shock/faulty memory. Didn't he originally recount the story correctly, and only later change it? And I think physically being in a different helicopter for an entire ride is different than mistaking details in a quick, traumatic event.
  - zimpenfish 11y ago
    This is a good view of the situation: "While I can’t know what is in his mind, given what we know about memory it is reasonable to give Williams the benefit of the doubt. It is absolutely possible, even likely, that it is his memory that has shifted over the years, in a fashion consistent with memory research." http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/did-williams-lie/ http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/did-williams-li...
  - emodendroket 11y ago
    Recounting a story actually alters your memory of it. People think of memory like a recording that you just play back but it's more like, say, some hastily scribbled notes you made during a meeting, if you imagine that every time you read them, you had to then make a new copy and throw away the old one (tortured analogy but work with me here).
    - vidarh 11y ago
      We all have that relative whose tall tale gets taller each time it gets told. And it's not (usually) because they intentionally make it more outrageous each time.
      - emodendroket 11y ago
        There's that, yeah, but, to a certain extent, we're all that relative.
- zimpenfish 11y ago
  cf most 35-45 year old British people and "I used to hide behind the couch when the Daleks came on".
- emodendroket 11y ago
  As I recall (of course the premise of this article is that you shouldn't trust my recollection), it was discussed, but all the discussion I can remember was extremely dismissive, claiming this was just a lame excuse.
chernevik 11y ago
I watched the video ten times and I don't understand how this is a good shoot. You have two cops against a guy with a _hammer_ and the immediate solution is to shoot the guy? The first reaction of the assaulted cop is to run away from the attacker, which is understandable, I suppose, but really doesn't look like optimal hand-to-hand tactics. And her partner immediately draws his pistol and shoots the guy in the back. Why not grab him from behind and take him to the ground? Or whack him in the back of the head with a nightstick? I really have to question the training and capabilities here. Is part of the problem here that one of them isn't large enough and strong enough for the situation? I doubt that, proper training and attitude should be enough here. But if size is a crucial factor here then that person shouldn't be a cop. I expect cops to deal with something like this without killing people. Subduing people without killing them is part of the job. They didn't get it done here. To me this looks like manslaughter, and they certainly shouldn't be on the force.
- GrinningFool 11y ago
  He's not dead. Aside from that, the allegations are that that the guy had been randomly attacking people with hammers. And as we see here, he immediately attacked the officer, on sight. Was it the best choice? No. But the whole thing happened in just a few seconds, start to finish. I can't fault them or say it was a bad choice - I would likely have done the same upon seeing someone I worked with being beaten about the head with a hammer.
  - Kesty 11y ago
    >But the whole thing happened in just a few seconds The problem here is that the hist first reaction was take out the gun and shoot him. It shouldn't be his first choice. In this case it's hard to argue that a person randomly hitting people with an hammer on their heads didn't deserve it, but it's more a bad trending that can only domore harm than good
    - sp332 11y ago
      If someone is about to bash someone else with a hammer, what would your "first choice" be?
emodendroket 11y ago
I read an article about Ms. Loftus (whom this article also mentions) in Slate several years ago and it kind of got to me. Between that and various issues with forensic evidence you start to really be overwhelmed by the scope of the false conviction problem.
pjc50 11y ago
Relatedly, http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/05/man-knife-shot-dead-metropolitan-police-london http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/05/man-knife-sho... "It was the first fatal shooting by Metropolitan police officers since that of Mark Duggan in August 2011 which led to the worst riots in modern English history" (ie the Met hadn't had to shoot anyone for three years) and also "Witnesses differ in their recall of the number of shots fired, with accounts varying from three to 10".
jadell 11y ago
The Illustrated Guide to Law is doing a section on this right now: misconceptions of how memory works, how it really works, and how we fill in gaps in memory without realizing it or intending to. http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=3032 http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=3032 As an aside, I don't think the expert they quoted could have had a better paired name to go with their statement than: "Said Dr. Strange, 'It is surprising to the average person how quickly memories can be distorted.'" Read it in your best super villain voice.
- vidarh 11y ago
  If I was "Dr Strange", I'd make a point of wearing a suitable outfit inspired by the comics.

44 points by mturmon 11y ago

TillE 11y ago

I thought it was really odd that this never got discussed during the whole Brian Williams thing. Sure, sometimes people deliberately embellish their stories, but memory is a delicate thing that changes over time without you ever noticing. It's very very common to clearly remember something that never actually happened.

tacoman 11y ago
Yeah, definitely. I have a few memories like this. I can very clearly remember seeing the Easter bunny when I was a kid. Obviously this never happened, but I can describe the scenario and what the human-sized rabbit looked like. Also, I have a memory of my brother which is logistically impossible for me to have. These are just examples of things I realize aren't real memories because the situations were never possible. I was recently talking to some coworkers about a problem we had about 3 years ago. We all had different accounts of some of the details, but we were all about equally certain about our recollection of events. After digging through some old email, it turns out only one of the four of us was right. The fallibility of our memories is something I think most of us significantly underestimate.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  My favorite is having a chain of memories where A happened after B happened after C happened after D happened after A. At least one of them is wrong, but I don't know which, and unless I think about the entire chain at the same time, they all make sense.
- emodendroket 11y ago
  I was completely convinced I played as Batman in Killer Instinct at the Wiz or something at a display kiosk until years later I looked it up and of course Batman never appeared in Killer Instinct.
ohitsdom 11y ago
I'm not sure the Brian Williams situation falls under this type of shock/faulty memory. Didn't he originally recount the story correctly, and only later change it? And I think physically being in a different helicopter for an entire ride is different than mistaking details in a quick, traumatic event.
- zimpenfish 11y ago
  This is a good view of the situation: "While I can’t know what is in his mind, given what we know about memory it is reasonable to give Williams the benefit of the doubt. It is absolutely possible, even likely, that it is his memory that has shifted over the years, in a fashion consistent with memory research." http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/did-williams-lie/ http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/did-williams-li...
- emodendroket 11y ago
  Recounting a story actually alters your memory of it. People think of memory like a recording that you just play back but it's more like, say, some hastily scribbled notes you made during a meeting, if you imagine that every time you read them, you had to then make a new copy and throw away the old one (tortured analogy but work with me here).
  - vidarh 11y ago
    We all have that relative whose tall tale gets taller each time it gets told. And it's not (usually) because they intentionally make it more outrageous each time.
    - emodendroket 11y ago
      There's that, yeah, but, to a certain extent, we're all that relative.
zimpenfish 11y ago
cf most 35-45 year old British people and "I used to hide behind the couch when the Daleks came on".
emodendroket 11y ago
As I recall (of course the premise of this article is that you shouldn't trust my recollection), it was discussed, but all the discussion I can remember was extremely dismissive, claiming this was just a lame excuse.

chernevik 11y ago

I watched the video ten times and I don't understand how this is a good shoot. You have two cops against a guy with a _hammer_ and the immediate solution is to shoot the guy? The first reaction of the assaulted cop is to run away from the attacker, which is understandable, I suppose, but really doesn't look like optimal hand-to-hand tactics. And her partner immediately draws his pistol and shoots the guy in the back. Why not grab him from behind and take him to the ground? Or whack him in the back of the head with a nightstick? I really have to question the training and capabilities here. Is part of the problem here that one of them isn't large enough and strong enough for the situation? I doubt that, proper training and attitude should be enough here. But if size is a crucial factor here then that person shouldn't be a cop. I expect cops to deal with something like this without killing people. Subduing people without killing them is part of the job. They didn't get it done here. To me this looks like manslaughter, and they certainly shouldn't be on the force.

GrinningFool 11y ago
He's not dead. Aside from that, the allegations are that that the guy had been randomly attacking people with hammers. And as we see here, he immediately attacked the officer, on sight. Was it the best choice? No. But the whole thing happened in just a few seconds, start to finish. I can't fault them or say it was a bad choice - I would likely have done the same upon seeing someone I worked with being beaten about the head with a hammer.
- Kesty 11y ago
  >But the whole thing happened in just a few seconds The problem here is that the hist first reaction was take out the gun and shoot him. It shouldn't be his first choice. In this case it's hard to argue that a person randomly hitting people with an hammer on their heads didn't deserve it, but it's more a bad trending that can only domore harm than good
  - sp332 11y ago
    If someone is about to bash someone else with a hammer, what would your "first choice" be?

emodendroket 11y ago

I read an article about Ms. Loftus (whom this article also mentions) in Slate several years ago and it kind of got to me. Between that and various issues with forensic evidence you start to really be overwhelmed by the scope of the false conviction problem.

pjc50 11y ago

Relatedly, http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/05/man-knife-shot-dead-metropolitan-police-london http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/05/man-knife-sho... "It was the first fatal shooting by Metropolitan police officers since that of Mark Duggan in August 2011 which led to the worst riots in modern English history" (ie the Met hadn't had to shoot anyone for three years) and also "Witnesses differ in their recall of the number of shots fired, with accounts varying from three to 10".

jadell 11y ago

The Illustrated Guide to Law is doing a section on this right now: misconceptions of how memory works, how it really works, and how we fill in gaps in memory without realizing it or intending to. http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=3032 http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=3032 As an aside, I don't think the expert they quoted could have had a better paired name to go with their statement than: "Said Dr. Strange, 'It is surprising to the average person how quickly memories can be distorted.'" Read it in your best super villain voice.

vidarh 11y ago
If I was "Dr Strange", I'd make a point of wearing a suitable outfit inspired by the comics.