4 ms·

Yes it is well written and the style is light and refreshing, but am I the only one who think this is horrific child abuse?

jimmaswell 11y ago
Yeah, making your kids dive into an alligator-filled body of water? How does any sane person not see that as deplorable? Would it be equally character-building to make them run across a freeway to find a dropped pair of sunglasses? What's wrong with everyone in this thread? Did they not read that part?
- marshray 11y ago
  When I lived in Florida, we called that "swimming".
  - jimmaswell 11y ago
    There are places in Florida to swim without alligators.
    - rosser 11y ago
      Yes. Indoor pools.
      - jimmaswell 11y ago
        Exactly, or outdoor pools.
- jordan0day 11y ago
  I've never lived near alligators, but my guess is that the father had, and had a decent understanding about the level of risk involved. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_alligator_attacks_in_the_United_States_by_decade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_alligator_attacks... There had been a grand total of 4 fatal alligator attacks in the USA in the 1980's. It seems to me that the father probably realized that there wasn't actually much danger involved for his boys. And I think your proposed scenario > Would it be equally character-building to make them run across a freeway to find a dropped pair of sunglasses? is a little disproportionate, risk-wise: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809-456.pdf http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809-456.pdf "Pedestrian fatalities from all crashes reached a low of 4,763 fatalities in 2000"
  - jimmaswell 11y ago
    Maybe most people have the intuition to avoid alligators, and much more people are around roadways than alligator areas. Either way it doesn't mean it isn't foolishy dangerous to get close to wild alligators.
    - jordan0day 11y ago
      > Either way it doesn't mean it isn't foolishy dangerous to get close to wild alligators. You're absolutely right. But what is "close?" An alligator swimming right alongside the boat? Sure, that's definitely too close. But what about an alligator on the riverbank, 100 yards away? Is that still too close? How about half a mile downstream? Again, I've never lived near gators, so I don't have an intuition on what is and is not a dangerous situation. Additionally, I feel like you're forgetting that oft-repeated (and generally true!) maxim: "They're more afraid of you than you are of them." Maybe the father in the story was being outrageously irresponsible. My gut tells me (and the story seems to intimate) that he knew what he was doing. That is, he probably intuited that the situation was low-risk. To use a different dangerous animal, people have been killed by grizzly bears, yet tens of hundreds of thousands of folks annually camp out in the backcountry. Are they being irresponsible, just because their is a risk involved?
      - waterlesscloud 11y ago
        This guy seemed to think it was fine to boat through a 100 or so of 'em. Not sure I'd have done it, but he came through fine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn-JNkpG89U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn-JNkpG89U I have been to the Okefenokee, and canoed and camped there. The gators are intimidating, but they really never did seem aggressive at all. They're literally all over, and at the visitor center area they can be quite close to the tourists, with no barriers. I was a lot more worried about snakes, really. Having said all that, I wouldn't put a kid in the water near one I could see. Why risk it? Rumored giant catfish, though, sure, why not? ;-)
- mst 11y ago
  They almost never attack except extremely young children. Crossing a road or taking a car ride is likely more dangerous.
CWuestefeld 11y ago
If you read through at all, you'll find at the end that he gives some consideration to whether everything really happened the way he remembered it. IMHO, within that envelope there's plenty of room to find a tribute to living life, rather than letting fears govern our fate.
- murbard2 11y ago
  Even assuming his fears as a kid were blown up, they are still real and the dad's attitude towards them is extremely cavalier. I had similar fears as a kid, and I grew out of them. Being pushed never did anything to alleviate those fears and caused me a tremendous amount of pain at the time.
  - jonknee 11y ago
    It appears the kid in question turned out just fine and has grown to cherish the memory.
  - slayed0 11y ago
    I obviously don't know your story or any of the specifics but it might be worth taking a second look at whether or not being pushed while you were scared helped you eventually outgrow those fears.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >Even assuming his fears as a kid were blown up, they are still real and the dad's attitude towards them is extremely cavalier. Yeah, it was another time, when you were overprotectivily cuddled 24/7, and people had fun and adventures in nature even when they were kids.
bmelton 11y ago
I sincerely hope so, but I suspect not. In the world I grew up in, I had to be home before the street lights came on. I had to "check in" periodically, but otherwise, lived an unfettered lifestyle. I was free to roam, and roam I did. My friends and I had a tree fort we'd built in the woods, pieced together from scrap wood we'd found, complete with a tire swing. We swam in the streams, we biked full speed through wooded trails fraught with potholes, tree roots, fallen branches. We scoured the neighborhood in larger and larger radii, exploring til we found danger, excitement, or boredom. My daughter doesn't live in this world, and may never know it. My daughter lives in a world where Child Protective Services can pick her up for being seen without a parent. My daughter lives in a world where she can be detained for walking to her grandmother's house alone. My daughter lives in a world where building a tree fort could be construed as cause for arrest. Maybe it's for the better. Maybe we should place safety above all else in our children's lives. Maybe our parents should all have been removed, and each of us would have been better cared for as wards of the state. I honestly don't know, but I know that in exploration, curiosity was fostered. I know that in roaming, I learned how to be self-sustaining; or at least as self-sustaining as a child can be expected to be.
- oqnet 11y ago
  I think we should be safe but I do think we should let people explore. It's crazy to think what I did just 20 years ago is now something people would be frightened of(run off and play with friends). I didn't have play dates I didn't have boundaries, I had parents who gave me morals and let me guide myself. I had adventures with friends I will never forget, I had games where we ruled until we went home. If someone got hurt(and it did) we got an adult, it was a simple concept. I have kids now and while they aren't as old as I was when I started roaming the neighborhood it saddens me that I'm frightened to let them. Not because I'm worried someone will harm them and/or kidnap them, but because I'm worried someone will call the cops and CPS will come. That I will have a blip on a piece of paper(or electronic file these days) and that it could lead to court orders and in an extreme my kid taken away if only for a little while. I know that the police have to do their job and if someone reports a kid wonder around they should respond. I just wish that they weren't forced to call CPS in every instance(they are required any time a minor is involved here), like they aren't capable of assessing a situation. We live in a different world, but I don't believe it is any less safe than it was 20 years ago.
calbear81 11y ago
Just like the way fishing stories become more embellished over time and retelling, I think the author recalls fondly experiences that he remembered as being dangerous (but in reality may not have been) that left a positive impact on the way he approaches life. I also think we as a society have become too protective of children. The ones that are protected from everything that could possibly hurt them usually grow up not having the curiosity and gall to put themselves in uncomfortable and potentially dangerous situations.

jimmaswell 11y ago

Yeah, making your kids dive into an alligator-filled body of water? How does any sane person not see that as deplorable? Would it be equally character-building to make them run across a freeway to find a dropped pair of sunglasses? What's wrong with everyone in this thread? Did they not read that part?

marshray 11y ago
When I lived in Florida, we called that "swimming".
- jimmaswell 11y ago
  There are places in Florida to swim without alligators.
  - rosser 11y ago
    Yes. Indoor pools.
    - jimmaswell 11y ago
      Exactly, or outdoor pools.
jordan0day 11y ago
I've never lived near alligators, but my guess is that the father had, and had a decent understanding about the level of risk involved. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_alligator_attacks_in_the_United_States_by_decade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_alligator_attacks... There had been a grand total of 4 fatal alligator attacks in the USA in the 1980's. It seems to me that the father probably realized that there wasn't actually much danger involved for his boys. And I think your proposed scenario > Would it be equally character-building to make them run across a freeway to find a dropped pair of sunglasses? is a little disproportionate, risk-wise: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809-456.pdf http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809-456.pdf "Pedestrian fatalities from all crashes reached a low of 4,763 fatalities in 2000"
- jimmaswell 11y ago
  Maybe most people have the intuition to avoid alligators, and much more people are around roadways than alligator areas. Either way it doesn't mean it isn't foolishy dangerous to get close to wild alligators.
  - jordan0day 11y ago
    > Either way it doesn't mean it isn't foolishy dangerous to get close to wild alligators. You're absolutely right. But what is "close?" An alligator swimming right alongside the boat? Sure, that's definitely too close. But what about an alligator on the riverbank, 100 yards away? Is that still too close? How about half a mile downstream? Again, I've never lived near gators, so I don't have an intuition on what is and is not a dangerous situation. Additionally, I feel like you're forgetting that oft-repeated (and generally true!) maxim: "They're more afraid of you than you are of them." Maybe the father in the story was being outrageously irresponsible. My gut tells me (and the story seems to intimate) that he knew what he was doing. That is, he probably intuited that the situation was low-risk. To use a different dangerous animal, people have been killed by grizzly bears, yet tens of hundreds of thousands of folks annually camp out in the backcountry. Are they being irresponsible, just because their is a risk involved?
    - waterlesscloud 11y ago
      This guy seemed to think it was fine to boat through a 100 or so of 'em. Not sure I'd have done it, but he came through fine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn-JNkpG89U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn-JNkpG89U I have been to the Okefenokee, and canoed and camped there. The gators are intimidating, but they really never did seem aggressive at all. They're literally all over, and at the visitor center area they can be quite close to the tourists, with no barriers. I was a lot more worried about snakes, really. Having said all that, I wouldn't put a kid in the water near one I could see. Why risk it? Rumored giant catfish, though, sure, why not? ;-)
mst 11y ago
They almost never attack except extremely young children. Crossing a road or taking a car ride is likely more dangerous.

CWuestefeld 11y ago

If you read through at all, you'll find at the end that he gives some consideration to whether everything really happened the way he remembered it. IMHO, within that envelope there's plenty of room to find a tribute to living life, rather than letting fears govern our fate.

murbard2 11y ago
Even assuming his fears as a kid were blown up, they are still real and the dad's attitude towards them is extremely cavalier. I had similar fears as a kid, and I grew out of them. Being pushed never did anything to alleviate those fears and caused me a tremendous amount of pain at the time.
- jonknee 11y ago
  It appears the kid in question turned out just fine and has grown to cherish the memory.
- slayed0 11y ago
  I obviously don't know your story or any of the specifics but it might be worth taking a second look at whether or not being pushed while you were scared helped you eventually outgrow those fears.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >Even assuming his fears as a kid were blown up, they are still real and the dad's attitude towards them is extremely cavalier. Yeah, it was another time, when you were overprotectivily cuddled 24/7, and people had fun and adventures in nature even when they were kids.

bmelton 11y ago

I sincerely hope so, but I suspect not. In the world I grew up in, I had to be home before the street lights came on. I had to "check in" periodically, but otherwise, lived an unfettered lifestyle. I was free to roam, and roam I did. My friends and I had a tree fort we'd built in the woods, pieced together from scrap wood we'd found, complete with a tire swing. We swam in the streams, we biked full speed through wooded trails fraught with potholes, tree roots, fallen branches. We scoured the neighborhood in larger and larger radii, exploring til we found danger, excitement, or boredom. My daughter doesn't live in this world, and may never know it. My daughter lives in a world where Child Protective Services can pick her up for being seen without a parent. My daughter lives in a world where she can be detained for walking to her grandmother's house alone. My daughter lives in a world where building a tree fort could be construed as cause for arrest. Maybe it's for the better. Maybe we should place safety above all else in our children's lives. Maybe our parents should all have been removed, and each of us would have been better cared for as wards of the state. I honestly don't know, but I know that in exploration, curiosity was fostered. I know that in roaming, I learned how to be self-sustaining; or at least as self-sustaining as a child can be expected to be.

oqnet 11y ago
I think we should be safe but I do think we should let people explore. It's crazy to think what I did just 20 years ago is now something people would be frightened of(run off and play with friends). I didn't have play dates I didn't have boundaries, I had parents who gave me morals and let me guide myself. I had adventures with friends I will never forget, I had games where we ruled until we went home. If someone got hurt(and it did) we got an adult, it was a simple concept. I have kids now and while they aren't as old as I was when I started roaming the neighborhood it saddens me that I'm frightened to let them. Not because I'm worried someone will harm them and/or kidnap them, but because I'm worried someone will call the cops and CPS will come. That I will have a blip on a piece of paper(or electronic file these days) and that it could lead to court orders and in an extreme my kid taken away if only for a little while. I know that the police have to do their job and if someone reports a kid wonder around they should respond. I just wish that they weren't forced to call CPS in every instance(they are required any time a minor is involved here), like they aren't capable of assessing a situation. We live in a different world, but I don't believe it is any less safe than it was 20 years ago.

calbear81 11y ago

Just like the way fishing stories become more embellished over time and retelling, I think the author recalls fondly experiences that he remembered as being dangerous (but in reality may not have been) that left a positive impact on the way he approaches life. I also think we as a society have become too protective of children. The ones that are protected from everything that could possibly hurt them usually grow up not having the curiosity and gall to put themselves in uncomfortable and potentially dangerous situations.