6 ms·

The mantra of the fundamental materialist is always "it is only a coincidence" and it is quite useful to recite to explain away topics that might make one uncom

The mantra of the fundamental materialist is always "it is only a coincidence" and it is quite useful to recite to explain away topics that might make one uncomfortable. Another good one is "correlation is not equal to causation" (except when it agrees with my preconceived reality tunnel). If you repeat it enough times or with enough conviction it might even start to sound true! I attended Gunn in 2006 and this was happening in waves before I got there and continues to happen in waves since. There are guards that sit by the tracks (sometimes 24/7) to look out for students who are looking to take their lives in this specific way (buy them a coffee or donut on a cold night, they'll appreciate it). This is occurring at one of the most educated, affluent areas in the world. Hell even Radiohead poked fun at how perfect the place is. My AP CS class covered topics that weren't even included in my undergraduate CS degree at top ranked UC, and my social network from this school is more influential than any networks I made in college or graduate school. If the suicide rate did meet some statistical "norm" then that would be exceptional. Why are kids killing themselves in utopia? Why are some of the worlds most intelligent, rich, and power adults burying their children? EDIT: "paid guards" -> "guards".

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
AdreKnowChrome 11y ago
SGTM +1
mbillie1 11y ago
> Why are kids killing themselves in utopia? Why are some of the worlds most intelligent, rich, and power adults burying their children? I think the ideas that Palo Alto is "utopia," and that intelligence, wealth and power are all you need to make your children happy, are really quite telling. Perhaps expensive houses and influential careers are orthogonal to children's happiness and well-being, or perhaps even an intensely competitive career- and wealth-focused environment has negative side-effects with respect to one's family? I don't think that suburban ennui is anything new, and equating affluence and education to happiness is short-sighted in my mind.
- xahrepap 11y ago
  Anecdotal, but there are studies out there in child/family studies that back my experience: I'm a foster parent. My foster kids have more access to the riches of the world... are less hungry, have more toys, have more movies, bigger TVs, etc. Not to mention, I treat them in such a way that doesnt get the state to want to remove them from their home. However, one of my foster kids once said to me, "I really like you and your house. You have a nicer house than my parents and more toys. But I like living with MY parents more." This kid was <7 years old when (s)he said that. Even young children recognize that there is more to a parent/child relationship than "stuff". What it boils down to is: they want to be with their families. I've noticed that a lot of people who live in Palo Alto or similar areas work ... A LOT. Which means more time with their job and less time with their families.
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  Well I would hope that nobody would refer to Palo Alto as "utopia" unironically, but unfortunately that is basically the attitude that the Bay Area and California as a whole do seem to hold about themselves. It oozes from the place in a way that's more than a little offensive to visiting outsiders.
DanBC 11y ago
Suicide is common. In England suicide is the leading cause of death for men aged 20 to 34, and aged 34 to 49. For men the rate is about 19 deaths per 100,000 people. Suicide is less common in youths, which is why this cluster might be a statistically significant cluster. Or maybe it isn't, and it's just natural variation. We need to know the difference so that we can spend money wisely to prevent suicide; that's less likely if we don't understand where to spend the money.
- sjg007 11y ago
  Suicide is likely contagious, so any local grouping (e.g. kids in the same high school) is significant.
Glyptodon 11y ago
> "Why are kids killing themselves in utopia? Why are some of the worlds most intelligent, rich, and power adults burying their children?" Because certain groups of elites that self-select into a neighborhood share a collective social disease that ruins their children. Possibly they should pay to foster their children into more middle class neighborhoods and schools. Just because upper-class enclaves exist as goals to lure the beguiled doesn't mean they're actually utopias.
- mbillie1 11y ago
  > Just because upper-class enclaves exist as goals to lure the beguiled doesn't mean they're actually utopias. Very well put.
- selimthegrim 11y ago
  I remember reading about newly upwardly mobile African American parents in the suburbs insisting their children spend parts of the summer with their relatives and grandparents on the other side of the tracks just for this very specific reason. I wonder how much of a community there is that offers a level for these kids to feel engaged in (below PTA level) outside of their professional performance.
nekitamo 11y ago
>If the suicide rate did meet some statistical "norm" then that would be exceptional. Why are kids killing themselves in utopia? Why are some of the worlds most intelligent, rich, and power adults burying their children? Gunn '08 graduate here. It's because these intelligent, rich, and powerful adults are used to pushing themselves to the max, and they put the same pressure on their kids. However, not all children are like their parents, and a lot of them can't take the pressure. Growing up in Palo Alto is weird, especially if you've lived somewhere else. Everyone is pigeonholed into being academically successful, creative, bright, and happy. All the parents want their children to be successful like they are. All the teachers want to create a demanding and rigorous academic environment that pushes these kids to the limit. But no one ever asks the children what they want, or gives them room to develop an identity of their own. Instead, from the age of 7 you're expected to spend 8:00am - 3:00pm in school. After school your schedule is stuffed with extracurricular activities, ranging from sports to speech and debate to Kumon. Then you get home around 6-7pm and work on homework til midnight. Get up the next morning at 6:45am, rinse and repeat. If you don't follow this schedule, if you opt out and don't take the required extra-curriculars or get a B in Algerba 2A/Geometry instead of an A, you're viewed as a loser. You're on the path to becoming a nobody in life. You're nothing. So kids opt out by getting shit grades, playing video games, doing drugs, and some have serious mental issues and end up killing themselves. The adults then all get up in a panic. The teachers make long speeches about how they're here to help. The parents go to meetings and undertake inane measures such as posting guards at Caltrain, which doesn't really do anything. Meanwhile, nothing changes. The teachers continue to assign an insane academic load, and give no room to the kids to breathe with the endless homework assignments. The parents continue pressuring their kids, because "yeah that other kid killed himself, but surely that won't happen to my child. My child will grow up to be smart happy and ambitious like me..." ... right?
- sonoffett 11y ago
  I think you're right.
- AdreKnowChrome 11y ago
  turn on....tune in.....drop out....
maratd 11y ago
> Why are kids killing themselves in utopia? Why are some of the worlds most intelligent, rich, and power adults burying their children? Really? So you create a hyper-competitive environment where kids are constantly expected to perform and the image of perfection is demanded. In academics, athletics, work, and social life. From kids. Then you wonder why they off themselves when something falls through? Really? Maybe try not demanding so much from children and allow them to gradually learn how to handle failure? Fuck these artificial treadmills being created all over America. > My AP CS class covered topics that weren't even included in my undergraduate CS degree at top ranked UC This is not something to be proud of. It's sad and depressing. High school is a time for kids to learn social skills, not advanced computer science concepts.
- enupten 11y ago
  > This is not something to be proud of. It's sad and depressing. High school is a time for kids to learn social skills, not advanced computer science concepts. Unless they want to. I'm not entirely sure that most do.
- guelo 11y ago
  It's not just America.
api 11y ago
I prefer to call it "fundamentalist positivism" or "determinism" since it is not entirely clear that material behaves like this sort of materialist thinks, and there is abundant evidence that the right hemisphere has a legitimate role in cognition. Otherwise bravo sir. Hopefully this fundamentalism will go where other fundamentalism before it have gone. It's sort of obvious what's happening here: over pressure and conformism to prepare kids for high end drone roles in the new global economy. But I have no proof, and of course [citation needed] and all that. Perhaps I am suffering from the Dunning-Kreuger effect. Did I hit every cliche? Dunno... extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I live near Irvine in SoCal, and I wonder if similar things occur there. It's definitely one of those places where all the kids are expected to be above average and to perform, the schools operate as feeders for top-ten universities, and the parents tend to be a tad on the helicopter side. I have kids and rent right now. Not sure where we will buy, but it probably won't be Irvine. If my daughter ends up being (gasp!) artistic or just a "laid back" person, I don't want her jumping in front of the LA Metro Rail.
forgottenpass 11y ago
Why are kids killing themselves in utopia? It's not their utopia. It's their parents' utpoia.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Yeah, but what a first-world problem. They're killing themselves because, what, their Starbucks allowance is too small? They're living better lives than 99% of humanity through all of history. And they think they need a way out? Inconceivable. I'd rather think its some suicide cult.
  - sp332 11y ago
    You're thinking in terms of "stuff". If you have enough "stuff" you should be happy and not commit suicide. But it's not about stuff, it's about constantly being told that you're a failure. Or constantly being made terrified of failure, even if you're not failing at this particular moment.
    - emp_zealoth 11y ago
      You are goddamn right. That's how i feel - I am in a melee with depression and this is one of the core problems. Constant fear of failure, frustration - it often makes me disengage, stop caring, which in turn makes it all worse, since the real failures arrive. If there isn't anyone for those people to help, only to knock them down more (LOOK AT ALL THE STUFF YOU WERE GIVEN! WHY ARE YOU A FAILURE! GO STUDY! LOOK AT hypercompetitive peer WHY CANT YOU BE LIKE HIM)
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > They're killing themselves because, what, their Starbucks allowance is too small? If we're going to use simplifications of this cartoonish level, a more accurate (but still uselessly simplified) one probably would be "because they are surrounded by people for who think they should be happy because of the size of their Starbucks allowance". > They're living better lives than 99% of humanity through all of history. From the perspective of people who think that quality of life is identical to material riches; but while those things might be generally correlated, they aren't the same thing, and its quite possible to have low quality of life with plenty of material riches. And the fact that lots of people fail to recognize that exacerbates the problems of people who experience low quality of life while having material riches.
quietplatypus 11y ago
Exactly. I can't help but feel like the kind of parents who would let their child get to this point, or the peers of such parents, take some perverse pleasure in their children's deaths. "Is adult entertainment killing our children, or is killing our children entertaining adults?" - Marilyn Manson Not to mention the peers of the deceased, who probably have a similar sense of schadenfreude. The funny thing is you used to have to draft these kids to go to war to kill em with any efficiency---now you just feed them a line of bullshit (about grades and success or whatever) and they'll kill each other (and themselves) willingly right at home!
ScottBurson 11y ago
If you see this, sonoffett, please drop me a line (email in profile). I would love to chat with you about fundamental materialism.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

AdreKnowChrome 11y ago

SGTM +1

mbillie1 11y ago

> Why are kids killing themselves in utopia? Why are some of the worlds most intelligent, rich, and power adults burying their children? I think the ideas that Palo Alto is "utopia," and that intelligence, wealth and power are all you need to make your children happy, are really quite telling. Perhaps expensive houses and influential careers are orthogonal to children's happiness and well-being, or perhaps even an intensely competitive career- and wealth-focused environment has negative side-effects with respect to one's family? I don't think that suburban ennui is anything new, and equating affluence and education to happiness is short-sighted in my mind.

xahrepap 11y ago
Anecdotal, but there are studies out there in child/family studies that back my experience: I'm a foster parent. My foster kids have more access to the riches of the world... are less hungry, have more toys, have more movies, bigger TVs, etc. Not to mention, I treat them in such a way that doesnt get the state to want to remove them from their home. However, one of my foster kids once said to me, "I really like you and your house. You have a nicer house than my parents and more toys. But I like living with MY parents more." This kid was <7 years old when (s)he said that. Even young children recognize that there is more to a parent/child relationship than "stuff". What it boils down to is: they want to be with their families. I've noticed that a lot of people who live in Palo Alto or similar areas work ... A LOT. Which means more time with their job and less time with their families.
eli_gottlieb 11y ago
Well I would hope that nobody would refer to Palo Alto as "utopia" unironically, but unfortunately that is basically the attitude that the Bay Area and California as a whole do seem to hold about themselves. It oozes from the place in a way that's more than a little offensive to visiting outsiders.

DanBC 11y ago

Suicide is common. In England suicide is the leading cause of death for men aged 20 to 34, and aged 34 to 49. For men the rate is about 19 deaths per 100,000 people. Suicide is less common in youths, which is why this cluster might be a statistically significant cluster. Or maybe it isn't, and it's just natural variation. We need to know the difference so that we can spend money wisely to prevent suicide; that's less likely if we don't understand where to spend the money.

sjg007 11y ago
Suicide is likely contagious, so any local grouping (e.g. kids in the same high school) is significant.

Glyptodon 11y ago

> "Why are kids killing themselves in utopia? Why are some of the worlds most intelligent, rich, and power adults burying their children?" Because certain groups of elites that self-select into a neighborhood share a collective social disease that ruins their children. Possibly they should pay to foster their children into more middle class neighborhoods and schools. Just because upper-class enclaves exist as goals to lure the beguiled doesn't mean they're actually utopias.

mbillie1 11y ago
> Just because upper-class enclaves exist as goals to lure the beguiled doesn't mean they're actually utopias. Very well put.
selimthegrim 11y ago
I remember reading about newly upwardly mobile African American parents in the suburbs insisting their children spend parts of the summer with their relatives and grandparents on the other side of the tracks just for this very specific reason. I wonder how much of a community there is that offers a level for these kids to feel engaged in (below PTA level) outside of their professional performance.

nekitamo 11y ago

>If the suicide rate did meet some statistical "norm" then that would be exceptional. Why are kids killing themselves in utopia? Why are some of the worlds most intelligent, rich, and power adults burying their children? Gunn '08 graduate here. It's because these intelligent, rich, and powerful adults are used to pushing themselves to the max, and they put the same pressure on their kids. However, not all children are like their parents, and a lot of them can't take the pressure. Growing up in Palo Alto is weird, especially if you've lived somewhere else. Everyone is pigeonholed into being academically successful, creative, bright, and happy. All the parents want their children to be successful like they are. All the teachers want to create a demanding and rigorous academic environment that pushes these kids to the limit. But no one ever asks the children what they want, or gives them room to develop an identity of their own. Instead, from the age of 7 you're expected to spend 8:00am - 3:00pm in school. After school your schedule is stuffed with extracurricular activities, ranging from sports to speech and debate to Kumon. Then you get home around 6-7pm and work on homework til midnight. Get up the next morning at 6:45am, rinse and repeat. If you don't follow this schedule, if you opt out and don't take the required extra-curriculars or get a B in Algerba 2A/Geometry instead of an A, you're viewed as a loser. You're on the path to becoming a nobody in life. You're nothing. So kids opt out by getting shit grades, playing video games, doing drugs, and some have serious mental issues and end up killing themselves. The adults then all get up in a panic. The teachers make long speeches about how they're here to help. The parents go to meetings and undertake inane measures such as posting guards at Caltrain, which doesn't really do anything. Meanwhile, nothing changes. The teachers continue to assign an insane academic load, and give no room to the kids to breathe with the endless homework assignments. The parents continue pressuring their kids, because "yeah that other kid killed himself, but surely that won't happen to my child. My child will grow up to be smart happy and ambitious like me..." ... right?

sonoffett 11y ago
I think you're right.
AdreKnowChrome 11y ago
turn on....tune in.....drop out....

maratd 11y ago

> Why are kids killing themselves in utopia? Why are some of the worlds most intelligent, rich, and power adults burying their children? Really? So you create a hyper-competitive environment where kids are constantly expected to perform and the image of perfection is demanded. In academics, athletics, work, and social life. From kids. Then you wonder why they off themselves when something falls through? Really? Maybe try not demanding so much from children and allow them to gradually learn how to handle failure? Fuck these artificial treadmills being created all over America. > My AP CS class covered topics that weren't even included in my undergraduate CS degree at top ranked UC This is not something to be proud of. It's sad and depressing. High school is a time for kids to learn social skills, not advanced computer science concepts.

enupten 11y ago
> This is not something to be proud of. It's sad and depressing. High school is a time for kids to learn social skills, not advanced computer science concepts. Unless they want to. I'm not entirely sure that most do.
guelo 11y ago
It's not just America.

api 11y ago

I prefer to call it "fundamentalist positivism" or "determinism" since it is not entirely clear that material behaves like this sort of materialist thinks, and there is abundant evidence that the right hemisphere has a legitimate role in cognition. Otherwise bravo sir. Hopefully this fundamentalism will go where other fundamentalism before it have gone. It's sort of obvious what's happening here: over pressure and conformism to prepare kids for high end drone roles in the new global economy. But I have no proof, and of course [citation needed] and all that. Perhaps I am suffering from the Dunning-Kreuger effect. Did I hit every cliche? Dunno... extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I live near Irvine in SoCal, and I wonder if similar things occur there. It's definitely one of those places where all the kids are expected to be above average and to perform, the schools operate as feeders for top-ten universities, and the parents tend to be a tad on the helicopter side. I have kids and rent right now. Not sure where we will buy, but it probably won't be Irvine. If my daughter ends up being (gasp!) artistic or just a "laid back" person, I don't want her jumping in front of the LA Metro Rail.

forgottenpass 11y ago

Why are kids killing themselves in utopia? It's not their utopia. It's their parents' utpoia.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Yeah, but what a first-world problem. They're killing themselves because, what, their Starbucks allowance is too small? They're living better lives than 99% of humanity through all of history. And they think they need a way out? Inconceivable. I'd rather think its some suicide cult.
- sp332 11y ago
  You're thinking in terms of "stuff". If you have enough "stuff" you should be happy and not commit suicide. But it's not about stuff, it's about constantly being told that you're a failure. Or constantly being made terrified of failure, even if you're not failing at this particular moment.
  - emp_zealoth 11y ago
    You are goddamn right. That's how i feel - I am in a melee with depression and this is one of the core problems. Constant fear of failure, frustration - it often makes me disengage, stop caring, which in turn makes it all worse, since the real failures arrive. If there isn't anyone for those people to help, only to knock them down more (LOOK AT ALL THE STUFF YOU WERE GIVEN! WHY ARE YOU A FAILURE! GO STUDY! LOOK AT hypercompetitive peer WHY CANT YOU BE LIKE HIM)
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > They're killing themselves because, what, their Starbucks allowance is too small? If we're going to use simplifications of this cartoonish level, a more accurate (but still uselessly simplified) one probably would be "because they are surrounded by people for who think they should be happy because of the size of their Starbucks allowance". > They're living better lives than 99% of humanity through all of history. From the perspective of people who think that quality of life is identical to material riches; but while those things might be generally correlated, they aren't the same thing, and its quite possible to have low quality of life with plenty of material riches. And the fact that lots of people fail to recognize that exacerbates the problems of people who experience low quality of life while having material riches.

quietplatypus 11y ago

Exactly. I can't help but feel like the kind of parents who would let their child get to this point, or the peers of such parents, take some perverse pleasure in their children's deaths. "Is adult entertainment killing our children, or is killing our children entertaining adults?" - Marilyn Manson Not to mention the peers of the deceased, who probably have a similar sense of schadenfreude. The funny thing is you used to have to draft these kids to go to war to kill em with any efficiency---now you just feed them a line of bullshit (about grades and success or whatever) and they'll kill each other (and themselves) willingly right at home!

ScottBurson 11y ago

If you see this, sonoffett, please drop me a line (email in profile). I would love to chat with you about fundamental materialism.