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The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills
- unexistance 11y agoIn my belief, we prioritize the responsibility God first, then obligation to parents (both sides if married) then to your immediate family It keeps thing simple for me & seems to be working so far Although, I'm guessing not adhering to social norm helps in a way
- ca3dmon 11y agowhat in god's name is that font literally unreadable!
- jfoutz 11y agoHelvetica is indeed a monster. One might even call it grotesque
- cbd1984 11y agoArial, I think.
- unexistance 11y agohah didn't notice that, I've set my firefox to force use my choice of font all the time
- xai3luGi 11y agoWow, I didn't think there was anyone else on the web who did that! Most people's browsers obey web designers rather than their users.
- a3voices 11y agoI think some people need proper perspective on life. We are all actors playing out silly games of ambition. Achievement is really no different than a life of non-achievement, although your human instincts tell you otherwise. Also there is no such thing as being perfect unless perhaps you are a strong artificial intelligence that is a million times smarter than humans.
- Dewie3 11y agoAnd taking your own life isn't such a big deal if it's all just a game. Achievements or none; they won't matter to you when you're in the ground.
- sliverstorm 11y agoWell, if none of it matters, might as well stick around. It's not like you have anything better to do.
- Dewie3 11y agoHow brilliant. How is that a better argument than "if you don't like it here, you might as well kill yourself."? Oh I see. Because you implicitly value "doing" as better than "not doing", no matter what. So in that case, "living" must be better than "not existing", but definition. Hence you should stay around. How brilliant. Got any more brilliant arguments which are by default true by your own axioms?
- sliverstorm 11y agoYou sound awfully angry. I'm not sure why. I'm not really saying either is better. Rather, each of us has an eternity of "not existing" waiting for us; there just doesn't seem to be any reason to rush into it. It's not going anywhere.
- bottled_poe 11y agoPerhaps, we can still show compassion for those who will be here after we're gone.
- Dewie3 11y ago> When they finally divorced, Livvy got the house, the children, the lot. Once the maintenance was paid, there wasn’t much left for Drummond. I guess getting suicidal over things like this is "social perfectionism".
- brookside 11y agoIndeed, it seems as though Drummond's suffered from real setbacks and a lack of true social connectedness. I'm not sure why he would be chosen to be the centerpiece of this article about social perfectionists.
- mafribe 11y agoCalling loosing one's house and children a setback trivialises the matter, as if it happened by random chance. Instead he was the victim of institutionalised sexism/misandry in the UK which more or less automatically gives preference to women in divorce cases.
- sukilot 11y agoSocial norms push men into family/friendships less than women. For the average man, his spouse is the bridge to his social world. Women have more direct connections. A man depends on his family for social stability more than a women does.
- M8 11y agoIn case anyone still wonders, what did the husband do wrong, how could he make his wife's life better (since either he or society is to blame, obviously), check some of the stories here: http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/ http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/ http://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/ http://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/ PS: some of the people there are really frustrated though - beware of sweeping generalizations.
- tokenadult 11y agoThe article begins with what appears to be a misstatement of fact. China is an unusual country where the female suicide rate has been higher than the male rate for a long time.
- geebee 11y agoI wasn't aware of this. I had read the overview page on wikipedia, where the numbers aren't broken down by men and women for China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_ra... instead, they provide a link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_China It's a bit of a shame, because I had scanned the first page in the past and the higher female to male ratio would have jumped out at me since it's unusual. I'm not suggesting in any way that there's any deliberate suppression of info here, the reason the male/female numbers for China aren't printed in the summary is because reporting is controversial (official govt numbers are at odds with other independent studies), and so is complicated enough to warrant its own page. It is worth a look, with some interesting implications.
- parennoob 11y agoI think this article puts the euphemism 'social perfectionism' on the subtle, and in some cases blatant anti-male stance that pervades US and UK society today. Sports teams fall over themselves to wear pink for Mother's Day, hardly anyone celebrates Father's Day. [1] Time Magazine publishes an article on how "Men are Obsolete". [2] Politicians routinely trumpet the 77% pay gap despite it being "more complicated than that" at best, and false at worst. [3] Fathers are routinely mocked and disparaged in TV commercials, and shown as the bumbling idiot. [4] A Columbia student has gained national acclaim after doing a "art performance" accusing a fellow student of rape [5] while he (despite having been cleared by the University) is still a pariah. [6] Meanwhile, a female teacher in California who had sex with her 14-year old male student gets only two years in prison (note that the article doesn't ever say "rape", even though it is statutory rape).[7] Given these, is it any surprise that the average man who is mocked by society thinks of committing suicide after his wife commits infidelity multiple times, and then gets the house through no-fault divorce laws? This has nothing to do with so-called perfectionism. To be fair, the article covers this in one succinct sentence in the middle, which is, "In the UK and other Western societies, it sometimes feels as if we collectively decided, at some point around the mid-1980s, that men are awful." -- which I think is a far more accurate statement. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/granderson-met-yankee-players-pink-moms-article-1.2216320 http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/granderson-met-ya... [2] http://time.com/179/men-are-obsolete/ http://time.com/179/men-are-obsolete/ [3] http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gende... [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGCTFjFiNu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGCTFjFiNu4 [5] http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/29/its-hard-to-ignore-a-woman-toting-a-mattress-everywhere-she-goes-which-is-why-emma-sulkowicz-is-still-doing-it/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/29... [6] http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/columbia-student-i-didn-t-rape-her.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/columbia-st... [7] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/07/amy-beck-gets-2-years-for_n_567930.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/07/amy-beck-gets-2-yea...
- meatysnapper 11y agoYeah, I'm not really seeing the whole social perfectionism thing either. An ex-coworker killed himself in a similar situation.
- cperciva 11y agoA few years ago I was eating dinner and watching the local 6PM TV news broadcast. The lead story: "Friends and family mourn the tragic death of a young woman who killed herself..." Half an hour later: "A young man has become the latest statistic in a string of suicides..." I don't know if it was deliberate, but it definitely brought to mind the quote attributed (most likely incorrectly) to Stalin concerning deaths, tragedies, and statistics.
- SoftwareMaven 11y agoThe demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme). As a society, we need to come to terms with masculinity. That means men need to be able to be masculine without being domineering and without being castigated.
- GhotiFish 11y agoI don't understand this. In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male? Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined? I don't understand.
- mixmastamyk 11y agoHe's speaking of commercials, which often portray dad as barely able to tie his own shoes.
- Torgo 11y agoIf I watch an action movie, I am not intimidated by or identify with the cool guy in the movie because I'm not the guy they're portraying. When sitcoms and commercials emasculate and defame the everyman, I know they're talking about me.
- rrggrr 11y agoSpend a day in family court. Nowhere are the expectations of perfectionism for men lower, but rules and the penalties higher. The suicide and early death numbers for men whi transit this system are predictably high.
- beachstartup 11y agolook, men are disposable. and it's always been this way, biologically speaking. throughout most of history, mens' purpose was disposability - through soldiering, exploring, entrepreneurialism (the high risk / high reward activities), or just working your fuckin' ass to the bone in the fields of fealty or a in a grey cubicle (the low risk / low reward activities). let's define some terms. "meaning of life" (note i didn't say purpose) = reproduction, as far as anyone can tell. a single man can impregnate scores of women, and then die the very next day. the same can't be said of the female reproductive paradigm. for full replacement rate-of-birth, damn near every female is needed, and the other 99 men aren't... technically. however -- modern society has attempted to socially engineer this hasty biological truth out of male populations - it attempts to normalize male achievement and distribute the proceeds in a more equal manner. hence the social traditions and mores that have come to define the last few centuries (i call it the 3 M's - marriage, mortgages, and missionary) furthermore, society interprets "men" as the top (physically, socially, financially) 20% of men, the men who make a real dent in the world and who override the general perception of masculinity in society. the high achievers, the genetically gifted, the powerful. the stereotypical 'man'. however, the truth is most men aren't that archetype. most men are workhorse peons that get the shit end of the deal, having to endure living a modern subsistence lifestyle that consists of cheap housing, cheap food, cheap relationships, cheap labor. our (i hesitate to say western? i mean these days it's all over the fucking world) society has so far successfully plastered over this truth with an embarrassment of material and technological wealth (especially tech wealth in the last 10 years, for goodness' sake think of how many hours one could waste in imaginary world of all sorts), but the ruse may be soon up. it's true and you can verify it just by looking around - the rest of us men are either invisible, relegated to uncelebrated mediocrity, or become hermits of some sort or another. it's extremely difficult as a man to reconcile the societal and sometimes familial expectations of being into the top 20%, and the slow burn of your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, straight into the bottom half of society. to me it's absolutely clear why men decide to check-the-fuck-out, whether through technological, societal, or mortal means. we shouldn't be focusing on the problems, which are clear as day, we should be focusing on the solutions. i fear that my industry (tech, software, automation, whatever you want to call it), in which i am a vanishingly minor, yet complicit conspirator, has only hit the accelerator on the depreciation and obsolescence of the vast majority of men.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- NTDF9 11y agoIt all boils down to social pressure, doesn't it? Socially, it is unacceptable for men to be "losers". To have any social standing men have to do what is "respectable". Losing a job, for example, is not. Why can't a man be appreciated for who he is? Why does he have lower standing if he makes min wage or does something boring? Maybe he has other things he takes care of. Maybe he has a deep personality and even deeper interests. To be honest, once I realized that this is how males are treated in real world, I started having more respect for men in any situation...for I know what they've been through. The world is cursed for men.
- HAAAAMMMM 11y agoAll this blabbering... Men exist as functions. To assume otherwise defies every single thing you actually act upon. Without perpetual fear hanging over their heads, they'll devolve into overt rapists and monsters that burn down the world. You all secretly believe this. Stop pretending to care about us. It's about as trite as some 1990s neo-hippie caring about some non-induatrialized tribe du jour for Starbucks points.
- esthlos 11y agoI'd like to offer a different perspective. Suicide is a violent crime, the killing of a human being. Now, if we believe Wikipedia, then around 90% of homicides in the US will be committed by males. It seems reasonable that the male-female ratio should be about the same in the UK. Then a 0.8 ratio of male to female suicides could be accounted for by the increased male homicide rate alone. The Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime
- ajuc 11y agoFirst of all - suicide is not a crime. Also - suicide isn't more common among criminals AFAIK. Additionaly - equating it to murder makes about as much sense as equating masturbation to rape (BTW Catholic church did sth like this, at least in my language masturbation is called by priests a "self-rape"). So I don't think you can explain one by another.
- sukilot 11y agoFor whatever reason, men tend to choose more lethal forms of self harm (guns, cars) than women (cutting, pills)
- lmz 11y agoMaybe it's that gap in STEM education we hear about that leads to women being unable to choose properly lethal methods.
- jongraehl 11y agoPerhaps men access certain modes of physical violence (guns?) more easily, but how are the psychological states of murder and suicide related at all? I understand amok/revenge murder-suicides but most suicides aren't that. "Violent crime" doesn't seem like a useful way to carve up reality here.
- fierycatnet 11y agoThis article points out something I've felt intuitively for the last few years. Can anyone recommend any vacation destinations or some other form of a get-away for a week or two? I've been getting really stressed out lately, probably a burn out. Have been thinking about some sort of a vacation anywhere from a cruise to meditation retreat, can't make up my mind. Any recommendations? Not to derail this topic but this article outlined some symptoms I have, feel like I need a break.
- voltagex_ 11y agoWhere are you, what's your budget and what do you enjoy?
- fierycatnet 11y agoI am in TX with a budget of ~1500 for a week or two. The longer and cheaper alone time is better. What do I like, you know I've been so slammed and in my head that I can't even pick a vacation spot or remember what I like. I think I'd enjoy just some peace somewhere, disconnected from it all for a week or two.
- squiguy7 11y agoMy biggest suggestion would be to get out in nature. Unless you are really opposed to spending a decently long time without creature comforts then I think this is one of the best things. Another piece of advice is to stay away from crowds like you pointed out. There is a seemingly infinite amount of destinations that could satisfy this requirement too. Best of luck! I hope you find something suited to you and feel refreshed after getting back.
- pikachu_is_cool 11y agoYou could probably just buy a laundry van on craigslist and drive out to somewhere rural for a couple months, if you want to most bang for your buck.
- MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
- makeitsuckless 11y agoWhen it comes right down to the basics, with humans as with most species, males are less useful than females. Females have an inbuilt basic purpose, males have to prove their usefulness to the species/tribe/society. However tragic it may be, maybe it's just perfectly natural behaviour for the "superfluous" males to give up. I guess the opposite reaction would be to go around venting their frustration by raping and pillaging. (And no, I'm not writing this from the safe distance of a successful male. I've been close to that edge, like many of us, and I have no illusion I may not end up there again.)
- tdkl 11y agoDrummond was a social perfectionist because he was unconsciously trying to please his absent father. The effect of how a child grows up is astounding to his further development in life.
- bakhy 11y agoQueue male rights activists to explain to us how this is all feminism's fault :/ Tragic, really. Things like this seem to obviously stem from patriarchy. But instead of dismantling patriarchy, a small group of men simply blame everything on feminists. Those feminists, how dare they fight for themselves before they have solved the problems of men! :D
- bakhy 11y agoP.S. The way Hacker News is "moderated" sucks. It was really easily predictable that this would bring me downvotes, irrelevant of how well or poor it may have been written. Dissenting opinions have little place here.
- smil 11y agoYour opinion isn't dissent, it's the generally accepted view.
- bakhy 11y agoNot here it isn't.
- barry-cotter 11y agoI am proud to have been the first to downvote him but I upvoted his response to you because you're wrong. I don't consider the time engaging him would take to be worth it but I disagree with it. I'm sympathetic to some of what some MRAs say but think some of them are vile people of the same ilk as Amanda Marcotte but on the other side. But the most important thing about MRA is that it's a movement doomed to fail because no one cares about men qua men. They might care about their personal friends and relatives but men as a group? No one cares. As such lift heavy, be awesome and deal with it as best you can.
- bakhy 11y agoThis is pretty rude. You do know I can read your comment too? :D
- Red_Tarsius 11y agoThe media have been churning out self-reinforcing stereotypes for decades. The effects are as subtle as lethal. A few years ago I was very stressed out. I thought that talking about my problems (college, family, whatever) would have helped me. I shared my worries and fears with a few my female friends. Bad idea. > “A man who’s needing help is seen as a figure of fun”
- tdkl 11y agoThat must have been horrible. I had a similar experience, but what I got out of it is that I relearned what "friend" actually stands for and that not many exist in my life. "Close aquaintances" are more common, but friends are rare.
- M8 11y agoReal title: "How a cheating wife killed her loyal husband and took all his stuff and the kids in a 100% legal and socially-approved way".
- johnpowell 11y agoSome MRA bullshit up in here. Sickening.
- catlover99 11y agoPerhaps the simple principle that behind every great love/success lays a great suicide. You can't give yourself completely and keep the man inside. Maybe current society places too much value (amongst men) on complete commitment which in turn leads to a type of internal suicide, a loss of self and identity, which may manifest itself in a less internal but instead physical response (a true suicide).
- vegancap 11y agoThis is one of the reasons the phrase 'male privilege' fills me with anger.
- ryanx435 11y agoit pisses me off, too, mate
- senorito 11y ago> In every country in the world, male suicides outnumber female. The mystery is why? It's not mysterious at all ... it's obvious. Men face stricter social judgement and less psychological support. > Less than 5 per cent do. So mental illness is not an explanation. What? First of all that is a lot and second of all it is no secret that a very severe depression often keeps people from contacting a doctor and being diagnosed. In Germany you are facing easily several months until treatment. When do you contact a doc - when you are suffering the worst - when do you commit suicide? - then - and you are not diagnosed yet.
- amelius 11y agoLiving in a culture where people show only their "perfect" social self on Facebook certainly doesn't help. I guess the world is turning more social, and women are generally better at that game. Men are losing ground. We are turning into accessories.
- DanBC 11y agoVaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs. Suicide is complex. Suicide is common - it's a leading cause of death for some men. We need to make it acceptable for men to seek help when they are suicidal. This does not mean that we need men to talk and talk and talk about their intimate feelings. But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and have someone else say "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about? Or is it the kind of thing you might want to talk to a doctor about?"
- parennoob 11y ago> Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs. What is vaguely frustrating about that? The thesis of many commentators seems to be, "Of course men are going to commit suicide. Society often acts in ways strongly unfavorable towards them.", which may possibly not align with your views. I see no reason for bundling them with the "MRA" label/slur. I think it is already acceptable for men to seek help when already suicidal. If I told one of my co-workers "I'm feeling suicidal", your statement of "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about? Or is it the kind of thing you might want to talk to a doctor about?" is exactly the kind of answer I would get, and this is true about most decent-thinking people. (In fact, your specific statement sounded pretty insincere to me, and would almost suggest "Please don't talk to me about this," in real life.) The real problem is why so many men are seeking to seriously commit suicide in the first place, which is why those "frustrating MRAs" are probably talking about it.
- DanBC 11y ago> see no reason for bundling them with the "MRA" label/slur There's a difference between saying "here's a bunch of stuff that makes it harder for men" (not MRAs) and saying "women did it" (MRAs). There are a weird number of posts here unequivocally saying "the women did it". That view isn't supported by the statistics which show higher rates of completed suicide by men for many many years, since before feminist movements became active. > I think it is already acceptable for men to seek help when suicidal. Notice that I'm talking about mental health before the person is suicidal. We know that most people with a mental health problem experience stigma. Also note that previous threads about suicide have had fucking awful examples of wha people think is the right thing to say when someone is suicidal. ("Why don't you go whitewater rafting instead?" Etc) Why did so many men die from testicular cancer? They do not seek help when they find a lump on a testicle. We had extensive campaigns to get men to see a doctor when they find a lump to help reduce the death rate from testicular cancer. Why do so many men attempt suicide? Because they do not seek help when depressed nor when suicidal. We know that men do mot seek help from anyone for their mental health. We think that getting men having simple conversations about their mental health will make it easier for them to seek help when they need it. An example of the type of conversation (see the Matt and Tim video): http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/talking-about-mental-health http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/talking-about-mental-health If you had a broken arm, in a cast, would you talk about it with your family? Your neighbour? On a first date? At a job interview? Now (obviously) swap "broken arm" with "mental health problem" and see if your answers change. Most people's answers do change, and this is what is being targetted when campaigners are asking people to talk about their mental health.
- DanBC 11y agoThis article mentions England a lot. You can get detailed statistics from our Office for National Statistics. If you want to know suicide rates in different regions you want the (unfortunately named) NUTS3 document: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/freedom-of-information/what-can-i-request/published-ad-hoc-data/health/february-2015/suicide-rates-by-nuts3--registered-in-2013.xls http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/fr... If you want deaths registered in 2013 (note the registered there. Somone could die in 2012 but have a death registered in 2013) you want this page: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health4/suicides-in-the-united-kingdom/2013-registrations/index.html http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health4/suicides-i... which links to a spreadsheet with the data. They use a clear definition of what they count as suicide.
- balabaster 11y agoIt's an interesting read. What I've taken from it and from my own experience is that even though the Confucian scholar may be wise and poor, largely he is happy. My experience in life has been that the times I've been the happiest are the times when I've had the least and haven't been chasing power and wealth. The times when I've been most unhappy are those when by and large I would have outwardly been considered the most successful. As they say, money... and by extension, power, cannot buy happiness... and for all the retorts to that: The illusion of happiness doesn't count as happiness. The illusion is just a distraction from your own inner turmoil... and it will only distract you for so long before you realize that for all your wealth and power, true happiness lies within.
- morpheous 11y agoCrying IS a sign of weakness and immaturity. Ever wondered why children cry more than adults? We're turning into a bunch of sissy, "touchy feely" men in the west - it's enough to drive anyone to suicide. This whole political correctness thing has gone too far - and I say that as a minority myself. Yeah, so I'll get downvoted - so what?! - Newsflash - there are more important things in life than points on HN!
- ryanx435 11y agojust wanted to let you know I agree with you. cheers, mate :)
- Xcelerate 11y agoSocial perfectionism? Maybe just having a spouse like Livvy was enough to do it... geez. People who are evil, uncaring, and selfish can also cause others to feel depressed. I remember reading a strange question on Quora once. A woman was trying to figure out why her husband was always drunk and suicidal. "He used to be the perfect man! I don't understand why he's acting like this now." Of course, in the next paragraph, she mentions that it all started right after she had cheated on him. The disconnect between her behavior and her failure to recognize its consequences was staggering.