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Next Chapter

71 points by TimWolla 11y ago

cjbprime 11y ago
I'm sure this is related to the healing of the fork with io.js via forming a new foundation. After the merge, there won't be any desire for a single person who is "the node.js maintainer" anymore (because the new governance model shares responsibility), so it makes sense that the current one will step down.
- onestone 11y ago
  It's funny / sad (pick one) how he manages to avoid mentioning io.js at all.
Cshelton 11y ago
It is interesting through that entire letter there were no mentions about io.js and its effect on the node community. Was hoping to see something about the "Next Chapter" related to working with io.js.
- Touche 11y ago
  That's the bits about the Foundation.
- mnkypete 11y ago
  I find this pretty troubling, it really does seem the denial is still active. I have no insight into the talks between io.js and node.js, but I think the official communication should be a lot more positive regarding io.js. We'll see how everything will turn out.
- phpnode 11y ago
  AFAIK joyent have never once mentioned io.js in their communications, apart from to say "ha ha, what's that?"
  - janpieterz 11y ago
    They're working together as far as I know. Check or example [1]. The website itself doesn't mention anything though. [1] https://github.com/jasnell/node.js-convergence https://github.com/jasnell/node.js-convergence
sequoia 11y ago
Comes off as pretty childish not to address the io.elephant in the room. EDIT: I think that it's safe to say 90+% of people who clicked on "Node.js: Next Chapter" did so because they wanted to see something about io.js & how Joyent is planning to move forward.
- BinaryIdiot 11y ago
  Felt like a goodbye letter more than anything else but it does read odd because of that. Not sure I would necessarily call it childish though.
  - sequoia 11y ago
    I mean in the "lalalalala I can't heeaaarrr yoooouuu" sense. Pretending that there is no rift or that the author isn't aware of it, or that there isn't (for lack of a better term) a "competing" fork of node or that the timing of this change is in no way related to that fact... it strains credulity past the breaking point. Someone being in denial of/refusing to speak to salient facts that are obvious to everyone present-- that's what made me think "childish." Like a kid who tries to pretend she didn't eat the chocolate when its all over her face :p Perhaps "denial" is a less loaded term, but it doesn't communicate my reaction as well. :)
    - ChiperSoft 11y ago
      It's entirely likely Joyent wouldn't allow him to say anything about it. Their stance has been to ignore the project entirely.
      - Touche 11y ago
        He mentioned the Node.js Foundation several times.
- jonlucc 11y ago
  I haven't heard about the io.js elephant; can someone give a quick synopsis?
gkoberger 11y ago
Here's a bit less spending-time-with-my-family article about TJ Fontaine leaving Joyent: http://venturebeat.com/2015/05/08/node-lead-tj-fontaine-is-stepping-down-and-leaving-joyent-too/ http://venturebeat.com/2015/05/08/node-lead-tj-fontaine-is-s...
anon3_ 11y ago
I wish I could shake people like this - their very legitimacy is at stake. Sometimes I think people would be better off rescinding mistakes, instead of evading or falling deeper into denial. I think demonstrating self-awareness can never be underestimated. Temporary vulnerability is worth long term trust. The hard truth: corporate-sponsored languages are expected to be neutral. They tried to impose attitudes on their project they were probably better off kept on Twitter or Tumblr. For that matter, I never understood how feminism could be hijacked to do with programming. What is the matter with you, Joyent.
- geofft 11y ago
  > For that matter, I never understood how feminism could be hijacked to do with programming. What is the matter with you, Joyent. Feminism is, loosely, a set of values about how to see the world around us and what to prioritize in interpersonal interactions and what should be respected and what shouldn't. It's not about programming itself (the very act of writing code) the way that, say, OOP is, but it's definitely about social structures, including the social structures behind the act of writing code. When we talk about programming projects or communities that are a "democracy" or a "benevolent dictatorship" or a "meritocracy" or a "do-ocracy" or a "holacracy" or run by "consensus", we're also talking about a set of values that drive the inter-human interactions behind programming. (Some of these overlap, some of these are incompatible, and some of these -- including, for instance, "consensus" -- have multiple meanings in practice.) Whether one believes feminism is a good set of values for these interactions is certainly something people can disagree on, just as much as people disagree on whether a meritocracy or a consensus-based approach or a dictatorship is a good set of values. But I think it's pretty clear how all of these can be applied to programming projects.
  - anon3_ 11y ago
    We're adults building a software tool to help people. Without any proof of wrongdoing - even anecdotal - anyone can barge in under the guise of X and tell us to refactor our apps because someone foams at the mouth when they hear "Him?" Who? When? How? Then they can go right back to Twitter or Tumblr, or TV, or real life, with the first amendment, an environment vastly more polarizing. A lot of the (very few) programmers pushing this rhetoric tend to be on the puppet strings of a cynical mob of people who don't learn coding, but instead wait in the wings to harass actual engineers. You look them up - these feminists seem to be able to laugh at dark humor. Then I remember the guys who were fired and had their life ruined. Am I the only one seeing this? What can we do?
joshstrange 11y ago
* Open page * Search for "io.js" and "iojs" * No results * Not worth reading Unless you are talking about merging with iojs then I don't give a shit. If they don't get merged within a month (or officially started) I will be taking all our code over to iojs...
- proksoup 11y ago
  What would merging with io.js mean? Is there any reason to use node over io.js for a new project? Are the reasons not to switch to io.js for an old project the same reasons that node will not merge io.js?
  - joshstrange 11y ago
    Right now my company is using node but I don't want to switch them all over to iojs (On dev machines, QA, Staging, Prod, etc) only to switch back to node if they merge. That is what is holding me back.
  - Touche 11y ago
    If you are authoring packages you have to support Node because it's like 99% of the userbase. So there's a reason.
jbraithwaite 11y ago
For perspective, here is what Isaac Schlueter said when TJ took over. http://blog.nodejs.org/2014/01/15/the-next-phase-of-node-js/ http://blog.nodejs.org/2014/01/15/the-next-phase-of-node-js/
j_baker 11y ago
Node.js certainly seems to have a high turnover rate for project leadership. I wonder what role Joyent is playing in that. I don't think Ryan Dahl stepped down on good terms. Isaac Schluter might be a different story.

71 points by TimWolla 11y ago

I'm sure this is related to the healing of the fork with io.js via forming a new foundation. After the merge, there won't be any desire for a single person who is "the node.js maintainer" anymore (because the new governance model shares responsibility), so it makes sense that the current one will step down.

onestone 11y ago
It's funny / sad (pick one) how he manages to avoid mentioning io.js at all.

Cshelton 11y ago

It is interesting through that entire letter there were no mentions about io.js and its effect on the node community. Was hoping to see something about the "Next Chapter" related to working with io.js.

Touche 11y ago
That's the bits about the Foundation.
mnkypete 11y ago
I find this pretty troubling, it really does seem the denial is still active. I have no insight into the talks between io.js and node.js, but I think the official communication should be a lot more positive regarding io.js. We'll see how everything will turn out.
phpnode 11y ago
AFAIK joyent have never once mentioned io.js in their communications, apart from to say "ha ha, what's that?"
- janpieterz 11y ago
  They're working together as far as I know. Check or example [1]. The website itself doesn't mention anything though. [1] https://github.com/jasnell/node.js-convergence https://github.com/jasnell/node.js-convergence

sequoia 11y ago

Comes off as pretty childish not to address the io.elephant in the room. EDIT: I think that it's safe to say 90+% of people who clicked on "Node.js: Next Chapter" did so because they wanted to see something about io.js & how Joyent is planning to move forward.

BinaryIdiot 11y ago
Felt like a goodbye letter more than anything else but it does read odd because of that. Not sure I would necessarily call it childish though.
- sequoia 11y ago
  I mean in the "lalalalala I can't heeaaarrr yoooouuu" sense. Pretending that there is no rift or that the author isn't aware of it, or that there isn't (for lack of a better term) a "competing" fork of node or that the timing of this change is in no way related to that fact... it strains credulity past the breaking point. Someone being in denial of/refusing to speak to salient facts that are obvious to everyone present-- that's what made me think "childish." Like a kid who tries to pretend she didn't eat the chocolate when its all over her face :p Perhaps "denial" is a less loaded term, but it doesn't communicate my reaction as well. :)
  - ChiperSoft 11y ago
    It's entirely likely Joyent wouldn't allow him to say anything about it. Their stance has been to ignore the project entirely.
    - Touche 11y ago
      He mentioned the Node.js Foundation several times.
jonlucc 11y ago
I haven't heard about the io.js elephant; can someone give a quick synopsis?

gkoberger 11y ago

Here's a bit less spending-time-with-my-family article about TJ Fontaine leaving Joyent: http://venturebeat.com/2015/05/08/node-lead-tj-fontaine-is-stepping-down-and-leaving-joyent-too/ http://venturebeat.com/2015/05/08/node-lead-tj-fontaine-is-s...

anon3_ 11y ago

I wish I could shake people like this - their very legitimacy is at stake. Sometimes I think people would be better off rescinding mistakes, instead of evading or falling deeper into denial. I think demonstrating self-awareness can never be underestimated. Temporary vulnerability is worth long term trust. The hard truth: corporate-sponsored languages are expected to be neutral. They tried to impose attitudes on their project they were probably better off kept on Twitter or Tumblr. For that matter, I never understood how feminism could be hijacked to do with programming. What is the matter with you, Joyent.

geofft 11y ago
> For that matter, I never understood how feminism could be hijacked to do with programming. What is the matter with you, Joyent. Feminism is, loosely, a set of values about how to see the world around us and what to prioritize in interpersonal interactions and what should be respected and what shouldn't. It's not about programming itself (the very act of writing code) the way that, say, OOP is, but it's definitely about social structures, including the social structures behind the act of writing code. When we talk about programming projects or communities that are a "democracy" or a "benevolent dictatorship" or a "meritocracy" or a "do-ocracy" or a "holacracy" or run by "consensus", we're also talking about a set of values that drive the inter-human interactions behind programming. (Some of these overlap, some of these are incompatible, and some of these -- including, for instance, "consensus" -- have multiple meanings in practice.) Whether one believes feminism is a good set of values for these interactions is certainly something people can disagree on, just as much as people disagree on whether a meritocracy or a consensus-based approach or a dictatorship is a good set of values. But I think it's pretty clear how all of these can be applied to programming projects.
- anon3_ 11y ago
  We're adults building a software tool to help people. Without any proof of wrongdoing - even anecdotal - anyone can barge in under the guise of X and tell us to refactor our apps because someone foams at the mouth when they hear "Him?" Who? When? How? Then they can go right back to Twitter or Tumblr, or TV, or real life, with the first amendment, an environment vastly more polarizing. A lot of the (very few) programmers pushing this rhetoric tend to be on the puppet strings of a cynical mob of people who don't learn coding, but instead wait in the wings to harass actual engineers. You look them up - these feminists seem to be able to laugh at dark humor. Then I remember the guys who were fired and had their life ruined. Am I the only one seeing this? What can we do?

joshstrange 11y ago

* Open page * Search for "io.js" and "iojs" * No results * Not worth reading Unless you are talking about merging with iojs then I don't give a shit. If they don't get merged within a month (or officially started) I will be taking all our code over to iojs...

proksoup 11y ago
What would merging with io.js mean? Is there any reason to use node over io.js for a new project? Are the reasons not to switch to io.js for an old project the same reasons that node will not merge io.js?
- joshstrange 11y ago
  Right now my company is using node but I don't want to switch them all over to iojs (On dev machines, QA, Staging, Prod, etc) only to switch back to node if they merge. That is what is holding me back.
- Touche 11y ago
  If you are authoring packages you have to support Node because it's like 99% of the userbase. So there's a reason.

jbraithwaite 11y ago

For perspective, here is what Isaac Schlueter said when TJ took over. http://blog.nodejs.org/2014/01/15/the-next-phase-of-node-js/ http://blog.nodejs.org/2014/01/15/the-next-phase-of-node-js/

j_baker 11y ago

Node.js certainly seems to have a high turnover rate for project leadership. I wonder what role Joyent is playing in that. I don't think Ryan Dahl stepped down on good terms. Isaac Schluter might be a different story.