11 ms·

Every time this comes up, I have one simple question that I have yet to have answered to any degree of satisfaction. (Someone who endorses this structure) expl

by gergles 11y ago

Every time this comes up, I have one simple question that I have yet to have answered to any degree of satisfaction. (Someone who endorses this structure) explain to me in one sentence with fewer than 20 words how a 'lead link' is not the same role as a 'manager'.

jotux 11y ago
>in one sentence with fewer than 20 words Seems like an arbitrary restriction to put on something that's probably complex.
- libria 11y ago
  It's essentially "Explain it like I'm 5", which in this case can help discern between an interesting corporate experiment and PR bullshit. No one wants to get halfway through an article claiming the former and ending up being the latter. If Zappos has a unique take on how to replace middle management, let's all hear it.
  - jotux 11y ago
    The ability or inability to describe an idea in simple terms has no relation to the validity of the idea. >If Zappos has a unique take on how to replace middle management, let's all hear it. I think their idea is in this book, mentioned in the article, that they asked all zappos employees to read: http://www.reinventingorganizations.com/ http://www.reinventingorganizations.com/
    - tomjen3 11y ago
      >The ability or inability to describe an idea in simple terms has no relation to the validity of the idea. Maybe not in physics, but in politics and business it does - those fields like to seem more complex than they are so they fake it, which is much more difficult to do with simple language.
      - dougmany 11y ago
        I disagree. I think we have more understanding of the physical world (physics) then we do the complex human interactions that make up society (politics) and the economy (business). To me the fact the latter fields are not well described alludes the them being more complex.
      - dalke 11y ago
        "Just say no to drugs" - simple terms. Is it a valid social policy given other ways to reduce drug use? "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". Simple terms. Does it lead to a workable political system? "Three-strikes law". Simple idea. Does it lead to good social policy? "Zero tolerance." Another simple idea. Does it lead to good social policy? "White man's burden." Does it justify the American colonization of the Philippines and other countries? "Curse and mark of Cain" as used by many religious groups to explain the lower social standing of those with black skin. Valid idea? "Free silver at a ratio of 16 to 1" - one of the famous slogans of the Populist movement in the US in the late 1800s. Easy to say. Good economic policy? Or do you prefer "Bad money drives out good" - Gresham's Law - as your economic policy?
        tomjen3 11y ago
        A therefore B does not mean not A therefore not B
        dalke 11y ago
        My point was that "A therefore B" isn't useful if the noise level is so high that it can't be used to make a meaningful decision. Otherwise the advice reduces to "don't trust long explanations". But if 1% of long explanations are valid and 2% of short ones are valid, then the statement is both true, and worthless as a way to detect validity.
        netcan 11y ago
        Gersham's law is actually fairly valid, as well as being simple. The difference is that it isn't a statement of intent, it's a description of an inevitability.
    - a3n 11y ago
      Everything can be initially described by an elevator pitch. That's never the whole explanation, it's just a sense that there's something in the idea (or not), and allows the listener to decide whether it's worth pursuing the long discussion. It's not a guaranteed indicator, but the chances are better that a good elevator pitch is good because it describes something good.
- s73v3r 11y ago
  If it can't be properly explained in simple terms, it might not be a great idea.
swombat 11y ago
I actually don't like the way they've defined lead link in Holacracy. It does feel too manager-like because they have the ability to create roles or remove people from roles. We had this as a stepping stone at GrantTree, in our previous implementation of holarchy (note: that's not the same as holacracy, it's just one subset of holacracy that deals with how to organise work without organising people) but since then, we got rid of that managerial aspect (and also of the word "lead", which is needlessly managerial). The links at GrantTree now do just one thing: they represent the circle they're a link of in the meetings of the supercircle. This is just one role among many for the person, and it has absolutely zero managerial authority. It's an administrative and communications role. We're still in the early days of it, but the intention is that the person in that role will be rotated out every 3 months or so, to make sure the role doesn't turn into a manager role inadvertently (but at the moment there's no sign that it will).
- smil 11y ago
  Fail.
shanusmagnus 11y ago
After you've done that, please explain in one sentence with fewer than 20 words how a determinant is a measure of fullness-of-span in n-dimensional space. I know that it is, but I've never understood the intuition.
- teraflop 11y ago
  A determinant describes changes in volume under transformation, and an (n-1)-dimensional set of points has zero n-dimensional volume. (very sketchy, but it's the best I could come up with under the constraints)
  - shanusmagnus 11y ago
    Brilliant effort!
- bcoates 11y ago
  V. I. Arnold uses 17 words: "The determinant of a matrix is an (oriented) volume of the parallelepiped whose edges are its columns." http://pauli.uni-muenster.de/~munsteg/arnold.html http://pauli.uni-muenster.de/~munsteg/arnold.html
1123581321 11y ago
A lead link can appoint people to roles, but the people have autonomy in that role. A manager has the authority to both appoint roles and micromanage execution. Also, there is a parallel to lead link called rep link who is appointed by the lead link's circle to check against bad decisions/behavior by the lead link.
- keithpeter 11y ago
  Another way to look at 'micromanage execution' is as 'support and mentoring in the role' based on honest feedback on perceived performance. How do people get support for challenges?
  - 1123581321 11y ago
    Providing support and feedback is a role responsibility. There can be as many responsibilities and roles to fulfill them as the team needs. If a circle member has a need for support and they are not getting it, it gets brought up at a tension meeting and quickly resolved (new responsibility assigned, role assigned, person's role changed, whatever's needed.) Edit: I forgot to add that anyone who perceives a person is not receiving support for their responsibility can raise a tension. It's not just the manager's and the employee's job.
    - keithpeter 11y ago
      "If a circle member has a need for support and they are not getting it..." How does circle member recognise that they need support? What indicators/who provides feedback? My (limited) experience as a manager was mainly about nurture/support/challenge of colleagues. We could not allow them to fail/fail to 'ask' for support because of implications for clients (we did not sell people shoes).
      - 1123581321 11y ago
        The tension meeting makes it hard to avoid asking for support because it's so easy for people to bring up small problems as they're noticed and get quick resolution. Also, responsibilities are worded as objectively and measurably as possible (like good KPIs) to increase transparency into how people are doing in their roles. If a circle in an org like yours needs to avoid showing weaknesses to clients and to suss out problems before they're noticeable, they would be able to define those as responsibilities and assign them to the right people. That said, I think one of the bets holocracy makes is that a group of people with a better understanding of their responsibilities and who receive quicker, clearer feedback will naturally be more proactive about problems. A circle is pretty unlikely to assign themselves the kinds of restrictive processing and reporting that are traditionally used to control interaction with clients in organizations that don't have perfectly reliable people. But in the short term, the control method would probably have more consistent results and that is not acceptable to every organization.

by gergles 11y ago

jotux 11y ago

>in one sentence with fewer than 20 words Seems like an arbitrary restriction to put on something that's probably complex.

libria 11y ago
It's essentially "Explain it like I'm 5", which in this case can help discern between an interesting corporate experiment and PR bullshit. No one wants to get halfway through an article claiming the former and ending up being the latter. If Zappos has a unique take on how to replace middle management, let's all hear it.
- jotux 11y ago
  The ability or inability to describe an idea in simple terms has no relation to the validity of the idea. >If Zappos has a unique take on how to replace middle management, let's all hear it. I think their idea is in this book, mentioned in the article, that they asked all zappos employees to read: http://www.reinventingorganizations.com/ http://www.reinventingorganizations.com/
  - tomjen3 11y ago
    >The ability or inability to describe an idea in simple terms has no relation to the validity of the idea. Maybe not in physics, but in politics and business it does - those fields like to seem more complex than they are so they fake it, which is much more difficult to do with simple language.
    - dougmany 11y ago
      I disagree. I think we have more understanding of the physical world (physics) then we do the complex human interactions that make up society (politics) and the economy (business). To me the fact the latter fields are not well described alludes the them being more complex.
    - dalke 11y ago
      "Just say no to drugs" - simple terms. Is it a valid social policy given other ways to reduce drug use? "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". Simple terms. Does it lead to a workable political system? "Three-strikes law". Simple idea. Does it lead to good social policy? "Zero tolerance." Another simple idea. Does it lead to good social policy? "White man's burden." Does it justify the American colonization of the Philippines and other countries? "Curse and mark of Cain" as used by many religious groups to explain the lower social standing of those with black skin. Valid idea? "Free silver at a ratio of 16 to 1" - one of the famous slogans of the Populist movement in the US in the late 1800s. Easy to say. Good economic policy? Or do you prefer "Bad money drives out good" - Gresham's Law - as your economic policy?
      - tomjen3 11y ago
        A therefore B does not mean not A therefore not B
        dalke 11y ago
        My point was that "A therefore B" isn't useful if the noise level is so high that it can't be used to make a meaningful decision. Otherwise the advice reduces to "don't trust long explanations". But if 1% of long explanations are valid and 2% of short ones are valid, then the statement is both true, and worthless as a way to detect validity.
      - netcan 11y ago
        Gersham's law is actually fairly valid, as well as being simple. The difference is that it isn't a statement of intent, it's a description of an inevitability.
  - a3n 11y ago
    Everything can be initially described by an elevator pitch. That's never the whole explanation, it's just a sense that there's something in the idea (or not), and allows the listener to decide whether it's worth pursuing the long discussion. It's not a guaranteed indicator, but the chances are better that a good elevator pitch is good because it describes something good.
s73v3r 11y ago
If it can't be properly explained in simple terms, it might not be a great idea.

swombat 11y ago

I actually don't like the way they've defined lead link in Holacracy. It does feel too manager-like because they have the ability to create roles or remove people from roles. We had this as a stepping stone at GrantTree, in our previous implementation of holarchy (note: that's not the same as holacracy, it's just one subset of holacracy that deals with how to organise work without organising people) but since then, we got rid of that managerial aspect (and also of the word "lead", which is needlessly managerial). The links at GrantTree now do just one thing: they represent the circle they're a link of in the meetings of the supercircle. This is just one role among many for the person, and it has absolutely zero managerial authority. It's an administrative and communications role. We're still in the early days of it, but the intention is that the person in that role will be rotated out every 3 months or so, to make sure the role doesn't turn into a manager role inadvertently (but at the moment there's no sign that it will).

smil 11y ago
Fail.

shanusmagnus 11y ago

After you've done that, please explain in one sentence with fewer than 20 words how a determinant is a measure of fullness-of-span in n-dimensional space. I know that it is, but I've never understood the intuition.

teraflop 11y ago
A determinant describes changes in volume under transformation, and an (n-1)-dimensional set of points has zero n-dimensional volume. (very sketchy, but it's the best I could come up with under the constraints)
- shanusmagnus 11y ago
  Brilliant effort!
bcoates 11y ago
V. I. Arnold uses 17 words: "The determinant of a matrix is an (oriented) volume of the parallelepiped whose edges are its columns." http://pauli.uni-muenster.de/~munsteg/arnold.html http://pauli.uni-muenster.de/~munsteg/arnold.html

1123581321 11y ago

A lead link can appoint people to roles, but the people have autonomy in that role. A manager has the authority to both appoint roles and micromanage execution. Also, there is a parallel to lead link called rep link who is appointed by the lead link's circle to check against bad decisions/behavior by the lead link.

keithpeter 11y ago
Another way to look at 'micromanage execution' is as 'support and mentoring in the role' based on honest feedback on perceived performance. How do people get support for challenges?
- 1123581321 11y ago
  Providing support and feedback is a role responsibility. There can be as many responsibilities and roles to fulfill them as the team needs. If a circle member has a need for support and they are not getting it, it gets brought up at a tension meeting and quickly resolved (new responsibility assigned, role assigned, person's role changed, whatever's needed.) Edit: I forgot to add that anyone who perceives a person is not receiving support for their responsibility can raise a tension. It's not just the manager's and the employee's job.
  - keithpeter 11y ago
    "If a circle member has a need for support and they are not getting it..." How does circle member recognise that they need support? What indicators/who provides feedback? My (limited) experience as a manager was mainly about nurture/support/challenge of colleagues. We could not allow them to fail/fail to 'ask' for support because of implications for clients (we did not sell people shoes).
    - 1123581321 11y ago
      The tension meeting makes it hard to avoid asking for support because it's so easy for people to bring up small problems as they're noticed and get quick resolution. Also, responsibilities are worded as objectively and measurably as possible (like good KPIs) to increase transparency into how people are doing in their roles. If a circle in an org like yours needs to avoid showing weaknesses to clients and to suss out problems before they're noticeable, they would be able to define those as responsibilities and assign them to the right people. That said, I think one of the bets holocracy makes is that a group of people with a better understanding of their responsibilities and who receive quicker, clearer feedback will naturally be more proactive about problems. A circle is pretty unlikely to assign themselves the kinds of restrictive processing and reporting that are traditionally used to control interaction with clients in organizations that don't have perfectly reliable people. But in the short term, the control method would probably have more consistent results and that is not acceptable to every organization.