7 ms·

Are the benefits of moderate drinking a myth?

49 points by luu 12y ago

31reasons 12y ago
Every time some statistical "studies" come out I think of which industry is going to benefit from it.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- saraid216 12y ago
  So... what did you think of? I can't think of any industries that would directly benefit from people drinking less.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    The statistical studies have been used to suggest that drinking 6 drinks a day is healthier than drinking nothing, even when you account for people who don't drink because of long term health conditions.
  - stephengillie 12y ago
    One way to look at it is that alcoholic beverages compete with other beverages, so maybe Coca-Cola and Pepsico would benefit. Another way is that alcohol competes with other neurotropes, so maybe pharmaceutical companies and drug dealers would benefit. Or even makers of psychedelic music and images. A third way to view it is that alcohol competes with other stress-removers, so massage therapy and calming music vendors would benefit.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    The budding marijuana industry?
- gordaco 12y ago
  So do I! Which is relevant to this article, because sometimes I don't stop at thinking, and try to find out. And I've found that quite a few studies linking alcohol with good health ultimately come from interested sources, while studies claiming that alcohol is not beneficial even in moderation don't seem to come from temperance promoting associations or anything like that. That has been enough to convince me (in a non scientifical way) that alcohol is probably harmful or at least not beneficial, even in small amounts. On the other hand, most epidemiological and medical studies, if not all, are statistical in one way or another, so it shouldn't be an indicator of anything. I recommend Bad Pharma [1], a very interesting book whose primary goal is to get rid of the many kinds of bias present in the current medical science. Among many interesting things, it describes a few different ways to perform medical studies, all of which are in some way statistical. [1] http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Bad%20Pharma http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3D...
ScottBurson 12y ago
TL;DR: Among light and moderate drinkers as a group, 27 of the 30 factors were correlated with drinking levels, and in the direction that could create a false appearance of moderate drinking leading to better health. For example, as people enter old age, they drink less and become more likely to die. ... In light of these facts, Occam’s Razor argues for a simple theory: the net marginal impact of drinking on health is negative at all levels; and moderate drinking is a marker for relative youth, affluence, and healthy habits rather than a cause of good health. I guess he's suggesting that the apparent positive correlation between moderate drinking and health is an example of Simpson's paradox [0]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox
- mulligan 12y ago
  From the article: argues for a simple theory: the net marginal impact of drinking on health is negative at all levels; and moderate drinking is a marker for relative youth, affluence, and healthy habits rather than a cause of good health
- coldtea 12y ago
  >In light of these facts, Occam’s Razor argues for a simple theory: the net marginal impact of drinking on health is negative at all levels; and moderate drinking is a marker for relative youth, affluence, and healthy habits rather than a cause of good health. That would be true only if all studies failed to control for such parameters, which sounds BS. According to Occam’s Razor it's more probably that the author is yielding Occam's Razor wrongly, than that all those researchers are wrong and fail at such basic research methodology as controlling for age and those other parameters...
uptownJimmy 12y ago
My purely observational take on this: moderate drinking itself is the myth: most people who drink daily do not drink in anything resembling moderate amounts, especially as the years go by.
- wutbrodo 12y ago
  Really? I have plenty of friends who have a glass of wine (or scotch) a night; Are you saying that strikes you as an uncommon phenomenon?
  - mildbow 12y ago
    Are you sure it's just a glass? I started like that and atleast in my case, I very much progressed far beyond moderate amounts in the span of 3 years.
    - brianwawok 12y ago
      I also drink moderately. Usually 1 drink per day. Once in a while 0. ~once a month 2. I think the most common forms of drinking are 0 or <too much>, but there are at least some people that moderate (I do).
      - mod 12y ago
        I'm curious as to why you drink one drink per day. For me, drinking is mostly about feeling different from what I normally feel. Having one drink doesn't have any noticeable impact for me, so I virtually never have just one drink except in social situations or when I just think a beer will taste good with a meal, perhaps. I don't know where you draw the line of <too much>, or why you draw it there, but something more like 4 drinks is my norm--though my monthly consumption is likely far smaller than yours. FWIW, compared to my peers & family, I'm definitely drinking "in moderation," even on those nights!
        wutbrodo 12y ago
Elepsis 12y ago
It's worth noting that even if there's no health benefit to regular moderate drinking, there's no argument made here that there's necessarily harm from regular moderate drinking. So maybe the takeaway is simply that if you choose to drink moderately, don't pat yourself on the back.
- pc2g4d 12y ago
  Actually it is making such an argument: "Occam’s Razor argues for a simple theory: the net marginal impact of drinking on health is negative at all levels" They don't provide definitive proof, but that is their argument.
  - dpark 12y ago
    That seems an abuse of Occam's Razor. There are many chemicals that are known to be unhealthy in large amounts, but are healthy (even necessary) in smaller amounts. This group of chemicals includes linoleic acid, vitamin A, iron, and water. It may certainly be true that alcohol is a net negative in any amount, but it would be in lots of good company if it turns out that small amounts of alcohol are indeed healthy.
  - Elepsis 12y ago
    Sorry, I was unclear. You're right that they do claim that the impact of drinking is negative, but I don't think they made any actual argument in favor of that viewpoint.
- DanBC 12y ago
  But the argument has been that "moderate" drinking is associated with increased risk vs associated with decreased risk, not that it's neutral. The decreased risk group were suggesting that upto 6 drinks per day were linked to lower risks than teetotalism even when you adjust for chronically ill teetotalers (ie people who no longer drink because they've destroyed their liver). A US standard drink is 18 ml of alcohol so six of those a day is quite a lot.
gwern 12y ago
It's an interesting topic on its own, but I would draw people's attention to the bulletpoint about 'Mendelian randomization': this is an exotic kind of natural experiment which is growing in importance as genetic sequencing becomes more prevalent, and it's worth looking at the papers in more detail just to understand the logic of this design & how it's being applied.
hartator 12y ago
In France, we have a strong belief that one glass of wine per day is something sane and you should actually do it. There is no scientific study behind it and every other tests seem in fact to tend to show that alcohol is harmful for the body. But because it makes everyone happy to believe so (myself included!), we root for it.
- DanBC 12y ago
  There was a recent large study, mentioned in the article, that said that drinking up to 6 drinks a day was healthier than being teetotal. It got a lot of publicity. And it's probably not true, so it's good that articles like this one are appearing.
  - kvcc01 12y ago
    Do these studies ever control for the socialization factor that may relate to alcohol consumption? It seems having good social connectedness is good for you psychically, maybe even physically, so if you socialize with your friends, family, colleagues over drinks regularly, that may be helping more than drinking itself. Conversely, if you are a recluse, perhaps taking up drinking on your own won't be too beneficial, if at all.
    - mrtron 12y ago
      For me this is the biggest thing I enjoy about alcohol - it is primarily consumed at social occasions. Convincing some old colleagues to grab a beer on a patio is much easier than convincing them to meet up otherwise. Not everyone drinks at the meetups, but most do.
  - jotux 12y ago
    Was it this one? http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/truth-wont-admit-drinking-healthy-87891#.VAuTE5vDzjI.twitter http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/truth-wont-admit-dr...
- coldtea 12y ago
  >There is no scientific study behind it Actually there are tons of studies behind it. Whether they are accurate or not (as lots of studies contradict each other and are reported before peer review), it's another matter, but popular foods and drinks like wine, coffee, sugar, etc have tons of research done into them. E.g: http://www.uni-mainz.de/presse/17801_ENG_HTML.php http://www.uni-mainz.de/presse/17801_ENG_HTML.php http://www.coloradocancerblogs.org/study-red-wine-prevents-cancer/ http://www.coloradocancerblogs.org/study-red-wine-prevents-c... http://www.techtimes.com/articles/18104/20141018/red-wine-can-help-increase-spinal-bone-density-new-study-claims.htm http://www.techtimes.com/articles/18104/20141018/red-wine-ca...
pdiddy 12y ago
This is not an area where I have much more than a passing interest, so much of this is over my head, so to speak. I was first introduced to the idea of healthy moderate drinking in Walter Willett's Eat, Drink, and Be Healthy. Here is a link to one of the studies he cites: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12519921 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12519921 Does this study not constitute a randomized trial on the benefit of moderate drinking?
- eegilbert 12y ago
  I just read the Methods section of that article. It does not use a RCT design; it's an observational study based on questionnaire data. All standard confound caveats apply (with the exception of the controls accounted for in the paper).
  - pdiddy 12y ago
    Thanks for explaining. After I posted I read the methods and that became clear, but the explanation of confounding is definitely helpful. Willett says in his book, "When the first reports appeared linking moderate alcohol consumption with lower rates of heart disease, many doctors and scientists thought that some other habit shared by drinkers, not the drinking accounted for the benefit. Today the evidence strongly points to alcohol itself." Unfortunately I don't have the copy of the book with me to check, and that study was the only one I could find by searching the book through Amazon. I would be interested to see what other evidence he points to.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
acheron 12y ago
Another one for Alcademic's "Good Booze, Bad Booze" series: http://alcademics.com/2015/01/good-booze-bad-booze.html http://alcademics.com/2015/01/good-booze-bad-booze.html
camelNotation 12y ago
I've never heard the idea that "moderate drinking" was good for your health. I've heard that having 1 or 2 dark beers per week can positively impact your HDL Cholesterol levels. I've heard that drinking a glass of red wine every now and then can benefit your cardiovascular health. However, I've never heard of any health benefits from light beer, liquor, white wine, or any other alcoholic beverage. I am curious where the idea of "benefits of moderate drinking" came from.
mastre_ 12y ago
The effects on mental health should also be considered, don't see it addressed/considered. It cuts both ways, but since we're talking about moderation, it could well be there's measurable positive impact for the classic "one glass of wine a day" case under certain conditions. Something the French, Italians and Spaniards are naturally clued in about, à la Mediterranean diet.
jrk_ 12y ago
Personally, I prefer to get wasted every now and then, instead of getting into the habit of consuming a tiny amount of alcohol every day. But to each their own.. I also strongly believe in this: Everything in moderation, even moderation. :) (Bonus points if you know who said it)
kayimbo 12y ago
I didn't really read all the comments, but I think if you really care about the issue its pretty apparent moderate drinking being healthy is totally nonsense. Baloney manipulation of statistics. There are like 30 different known mechanisms for alcohol being toxic, and as far as I know only a couple for it providing physical benefit. As far as I know, there are no animal studies where moderate alcohol increases lifespan or health. The animal studies all show common sense, alcohol is pretty darn bad for you.

49 points by luu 12y ago

31reasons 12y ago

Every time some statistical "studies" come out I think of which industry is going to benefit from it.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
saraid216 12y ago
So... what did you think of? I can't think of any industries that would directly benefit from people drinking less.
- DanBC 12y ago
  The statistical studies have been used to suggest that drinking 6 drinks a day is healthier than drinking nothing, even when you account for people who don't drink because of long term health conditions.
- stephengillie 12y ago
  One way to look at it is that alcoholic beverages compete with other beverages, so maybe Coca-Cola and Pepsico would benefit. Another way is that alcohol competes with other neurotropes, so maybe pharmaceutical companies and drug dealers would benefit. Or even makers of psychedelic music and images. A third way to view it is that alcohol competes with other stress-removers, so massage therapy and calming music vendors would benefit.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  The budding marijuana industry?
gordaco 12y ago
So do I! Which is relevant to this article, because sometimes I don't stop at thinking, and try to find out. And I've found that quite a few studies linking alcohol with good health ultimately come from interested sources, while studies claiming that alcohol is not beneficial even in moderation don't seem to come from temperance promoting associations or anything like that. That has been enough to convince me (in a non scientifical way) that alcohol is probably harmful or at least not beneficial, even in small amounts. On the other hand, most epidemiological and medical studies, if not all, are statistical in one way or another, so it shouldn't be an indicator of anything. I recommend Bad Pharma [1], a very interesting book whose primary goal is to get rid of the many kinds of bias present in the current medical science. Among many interesting things, it describes a few different ways to perform medical studies, all of which are in some way statistical. [1] http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Bad%20Pharma http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3D...

ScottBurson 12y ago

TL;DR: Among light and moderate drinkers as a group, 27 of the 30 factors were correlated with drinking levels, and in the direction that could create a false appearance of moderate drinking leading to better health. For example, as people enter old age, they drink less and become more likely to die. ... In light of these facts, Occam’s Razor argues for a simple theory: the net marginal impact of drinking on health is negative at all levels; and moderate drinking is a marker for relative youth, affluence, and healthy habits rather than a cause of good health. I guess he's suggesting that the apparent positive correlation between moderate drinking and health is an example of Simpson's paradox [0]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox

mulligan 12y ago
From the article: argues for a simple theory: the net marginal impact of drinking on health is negative at all levels; and moderate drinking is a marker for relative youth, affluence, and healthy habits rather than a cause of good health
coldtea 12y ago
>In light of these facts, Occam’s Razor argues for a simple theory: the net marginal impact of drinking on health is negative at all levels; and moderate drinking is a marker for relative youth, affluence, and healthy habits rather than a cause of good health. That would be true only if all studies failed to control for such parameters, which sounds BS. According to Occam’s Razor it's more probably that the author is yielding Occam's Razor wrongly, than that all those researchers are wrong and fail at such basic research methodology as controlling for age and those other parameters...

uptownJimmy 12y ago

My purely observational take on this: moderate drinking itself is the myth: most people who drink daily do not drink in anything resembling moderate amounts, especially as the years go by.

wutbrodo 12y ago
Really? I have plenty of friends who have a glass of wine (or scotch) a night; Are you saying that strikes you as an uncommon phenomenon?
- mildbow 12y ago
  Are you sure it's just a glass? I started like that and atleast in my case, I very much progressed far beyond moderate amounts in the span of 3 years.
  - brianwawok 12y ago
    I also drink moderately. Usually 1 drink per day. Once in a while 0. ~once a month 2. I think the most common forms of drinking are 0 or <too much>, but there are at least some people that moderate (I do).
    - mod 12y ago
      I'm curious as to why you drink one drink per day. For me, drinking is mostly about feeling different from what I normally feel. Having one drink doesn't have any noticeable impact for me, so I virtually never have just one drink except in social situations or when I just think a beer will taste good with a meal, perhaps. I don't know where you draw the line of <too much>, or why you draw it there, but something more like 4 drinks is my norm--though my monthly consumption is likely far smaller than yours. FWIW, compared to my peers & family, I'm definitely drinking "in moderation," even on those nights!
      - wutbrodo 12y ago

Elepsis 12y ago

It's worth noting that even if there's no health benefit to regular moderate drinking, there's no argument made here that there's necessarily harm from regular moderate drinking. So maybe the takeaway is simply that if you choose to drink moderately, don't pat yourself on the back.

pc2g4d 12y ago
Actually it is making such an argument: "Occam’s Razor argues for a simple theory: the net marginal impact of drinking on health is negative at all levels" They don't provide definitive proof, but that is their argument.
- dpark 12y ago
  That seems an abuse of Occam's Razor. There are many chemicals that are known to be unhealthy in large amounts, but are healthy (even necessary) in smaller amounts. This group of chemicals includes linoleic acid, vitamin A, iron, and water. It may certainly be true that alcohol is a net negative in any amount, but it would be in lots of good company if it turns out that small amounts of alcohol are indeed healthy.
- Elepsis 12y ago
  Sorry, I was unclear. You're right that they do claim that the impact of drinking is negative, but I don't think they made any actual argument in favor of that viewpoint.
DanBC 12y ago
But the argument has been that "moderate" drinking is associated with increased risk vs associated with decreased risk, not that it's neutral. The decreased risk group were suggesting that upto 6 drinks per day were linked to lower risks than teetotalism even when you adjust for chronically ill teetotalers (ie people who no longer drink because they've destroyed their liver). A US standard drink is 18 ml of alcohol so six of those a day is quite a lot.

gwern 12y ago

It's an interesting topic on its own, but I would draw people's attention to the bulletpoint about 'Mendelian randomization': this is an exotic kind of natural experiment which is growing in importance as genetic sequencing becomes more prevalent, and it's worth looking at the papers in more detail just to understand the logic of this design & how it's being applied.

hartator 12y ago

In France, we have a strong belief that one glass of wine per day is something sane and you should actually do it. There is no scientific study behind it and every other tests seem in fact to tend to show that alcohol is harmful for the body. But because it makes everyone happy to believe so (myself included!), we root for it.

DanBC 12y ago
There was a recent large study, mentioned in the article, that said that drinking up to 6 drinks a day was healthier than being teetotal. It got a lot of publicity. And it's probably not true, so it's good that articles like this one are appearing.
- kvcc01 12y ago
  Do these studies ever control for the socialization factor that may relate to alcohol consumption? It seems having good social connectedness is good for you psychically, maybe even physically, so if you socialize with your friends, family, colleagues over drinks regularly, that may be helping more than drinking itself. Conversely, if you are a recluse, perhaps taking up drinking on your own won't be too beneficial, if at all.
  - mrtron 12y ago
    For me this is the biggest thing I enjoy about alcohol - it is primarily consumed at social occasions. Convincing some old colleagues to grab a beer on a patio is much easier than convincing them to meet up otherwise. Not everyone drinks at the meetups, but most do.
- jotux 12y ago
  Was it this one? http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/truth-wont-admit-drinking-healthy-87891#.VAuTE5vDzjI.twitter http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/truth-wont-admit-dr...
coldtea 12y ago
>There is no scientific study behind it Actually there are tons of studies behind it. Whether they are accurate or not (as lots of studies contradict each other and are reported before peer review), it's another matter, but popular foods and drinks like wine, coffee, sugar, etc have tons of research done into them. E.g: http://www.uni-mainz.de/presse/17801_ENG_HTML.php http://www.uni-mainz.de/presse/17801_ENG_HTML.php http://www.coloradocancerblogs.org/study-red-wine-prevents-cancer/ http://www.coloradocancerblogs.org/study-red-wine-prevents-c... http://www.techtimes.com/articles/18104/20141018/red-wine-can-help-increase-spinal-bone-density-new-study-claims.htm http://www.techtimes.com/articles/18104/20141018/red-wine-ca...

pdiddy 12y ago

This is not an area where I have much more than a passing interest, so much of this is over my head, so to speak. I was first introduced to the idea of healthy moderate drinking in Walter Willett's Eat, Drink, and Be Healthy. Here is a link to one of the studies he cites: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12519921 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12519921 Does this study not constitute a randomized trial on the benefit of moderate drinking?

eegilbert 12y ago
I just read the Methods section of that article. It does not use a RCT design; it's an observational study based on questionnaire data. All standard confound caveats apply (with the exception of the controls accounted for in the paper).
- pdiddy 12y ago
  Thanks for explaining. After I posted I read the methods and that became clear, but the explanation of confounding is definitely helpful. Willett says in his book, "When the first reports appeared linking moderate alcohol consumption with lower rates of heart disease, many doctors and scientists thought that some other habit shared by drinkers, not the drinking accounted for the benefit. Today the evidence strongly points to alcohol itself." Unfortunately I don't have the copy of the book with me to check, and that study was the only one I could find by searching the book through Amazon. I would be interested to see what other evidence he points to.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

acheron 12y ago

Another one for Alcademic's "Good Booze, Bad Booze" series: http://alcademics.com/2015/01/good-booze-bad-booze.html http://alcademics.com/2015/01/good-booze-bad-booze.html

camelNotation 12y ago

I've never heard the idea that "moderate drinking" was good for your health. I've heard that having 1 or 2 dark beers per week can positively impact your HDL Cholesterol levels. I've heard that drinking a glass of red wine every now and then can benefit your cardiovascular health. However, I've never heard of any health benefits from light beer, liquor, white wine, or any other alcoholic beverage. I am curious where the idea of "benefits of moderate drinking" came from.

mastre_ 12y ago

The effects on mental health should also be considered, don't see it addressed/considered. It cuts both ways, but since we're talking about moderation, it could well be there's measurable positive impact for the classic "one glass of wine a day" case under certain conditions. Something the French, Italians and Spaniards are naturally clued in about, à la Mediterranean diet.

jrk_ 12y ago

Personally, I prefer to get wasted every now and then, instead of getting into the habit of consuming a tiny amount of alcohol every day. But to each their own.. I also strongly believe in this: Everything in moderation, even moderation. :) (Bonus points if you know who said it)

kayimbo 12y ago

I didn't really read all the comments, but I think if you really care about the issue its pretty apparent moderate drinking being healthy is totally nonsense. Baloney manipulation of statistics. There are like 30 different known mechanisms for alcohol being toxic, and as far as I know only a couple for it providing physical benefit. As far as I know, there are no animal studies where moderate alcohol increases lifespan or health. The animal studies all show common sense, alcohol is pretty darn bad for you.