6 ms·

Part of Paul's reasoning depends on Apps being central to the iPhone experience the same way software is central to the desktop experience. I'm not totally sure

by JunkDNA 17y ago

Part of Paul's reasoning depends on Apps being central to the iPhone experience the same way software is central to the desktop experience. I'm not totally sure this is the case. While apps are certainly a major component to the iPhone, are they really the major factor in end-user adoption? With the exception of games, how many killer iPhone apps are there that don't already ship with the phone? The phone shipped for an entire year without an App Store at all. I even read something not that long ago that said the majority of apps sit unused on people's phones after they get them. Now, this doesn't mean that developers won't want a developer friendly phone, or that Apple is hurting their reputation with developers. I'm certain it has been frustrating to deal with the whole process. However, if 3rd party software isn't essential for the iPhone as a platform, then developer satisfaction moves down a bit in terms of importance in Apple's eyes. Now, it's clear that games are major for the app store. Games are also a special class of software application that benefits disproportionately from having access to the hardware at a low level. They also have properties more similar to music and movies (incidentally, things the iTunes store is good at selling). Except for the simplest games, they require a lot of up-front design work and investment. It's rare that a released game goes through a ton of rapid iterations to "get it right". Games may still have bugs after release, but in general the functionality they are going to have is there on day one. They also ship with the final sound effects, music, artwork, etc... Games are also probably very unlikely to "duplicate existing functinoality" or any of the other cases where "normal" apps hit barriers. Perhaps Apple has (intentionally or unintentionally) created an environment optimized for game approval? I'm certainly not defending the app store process, but I just wonder if the software development community has a disproportionate view of its importance to the iPhone as a whole.

joe_the_user 17y ago
I think you miss the point. Developer relations are central to Apple as a whole. Apples needs iPhone developers, desktop developers, web developers and developers for whatever they do after the iPhone. If Apple creates hostile feelings in the developer community with its App Store behavior, Apple is going to have ongoing problems regardless of whether it needs third party developers at the moment.
- bumblebird 17y ago
  Not really :/ They need people developing webapps. To be honest, I think the appstore is just a stopgap until webapps become mature enough to take over (And wifi is prevalent enough). I wouldn't put too much effort into the appstore, and I don't really blame Apple for being half hearted about it. It's certainly not the future.
tjogin 17y ago
You're sort of right, but that's true for all other platforms as well, so it doesn't really tell us anything about the state of app use on the iPhone platform. The OS bundled ones are the ones people use the most. Across the board. If I had to guess, I'd say third party apps are just as often or more used on iPhone than on, say, Windows and Mac OS X. Simply because, on iPhone, a lot of web apps out there are used via a special-purpose iPhone app rather than the web interface.
- mikebo 17y ago
  I don't agree. On the desktop there are 'killer apps' like Photoshop, Excel, Quicken, Final Cut, etc. I don't think there are any killer mobile apps yet. Maybe for some it's FourSquare or FB, but I can't think of one app I'd miss that's not built in.
  - jhancock 17y ago
    We probably have a different view on what is a killer app. From my perspective: Windows - Outlook Express, IE. OS X - Mail, Safari. I can't recall the last time I fired up "Photoshop, Excel, Quicken, Final Cut" and I bet 90% of randomly selected users couldn't either.
    - netcan 17y ago
      Maybe this theoretical question. If you polled a random user of, what are the chances you would find an app that they will get very pissed off at it's disappearance? What are the chances they will actually skip platforms? On Windows or OSX, I think the answer is high. On iphone, maybe not.
      - alttab 17y ago
        As reliance on mobile devices and their capabilities increase, this could become less of an issue. It is still a luxury for most people - "oh cool look at this app," but it still comes down to those that can afford an iPhone. I can imagine there are many family squabbles involving parents that bought their kid an iPhone that racked up an App Store bill the parents didn't originally intend. iPhone is not a business phone overall - and therefore doesn't have "critical apps".
shiro 17y ago
I too noticed the similarity to the console game development. Usually console game developers have to go through lengthy approval process of the platform provider. Still developers accept that (although grudgingly), since once approved and the released, that will be the end of the process; no more bug fixes; the team dissolves and everybody starts working on the next project. (PC games are different, and certainly network games are continuous development, but console games have this feeling of "done is done"). Part of it may be a byproduct of the way the console games distributed on ROMs or disks. That may change, for consoles nowadays have network connection and can get updates anytime. There's another part, however, that some type of games fits this "done is done" philosophy. Like novels or movies, which you don't expect them to be improved over time. Well, I don't defend the app store process either, and I believe majority of software should be developed in the iterative process. It's just interesting that games may be a marginal area that has some peculiar properties.
- ams6110 17y ago
  Here's my guess about Apple's thinking. Note that I don't own an iPhone or iTouch. So I don't have any experience with the App Store or submitting applications to it, and can't say that it is or is not working this way but.... Apple wants iPhone apps to "just work" They don't want a plethora of buggy, half-baked, inconsistent apps in their store, because this would diminish the brand. It would be like a typical Linux distribution where half the apps implement their own peculiar UI conventions, crash often, or just don't work at all. So it is like developing a game. You get one release, one chance, to get it right. It needs to work. Maybe a lot of app developers don't get this. There are published standards about conventions, icons, behavior, etc. The app is expected to be FINISHED and WORKING before you submit it to the store. Don't count on deploying 27 follow up patches and updates to customers -- imagine the chaos if every iPhone app needed updates multiple times. Users (most of whom are not hackers) would, after a while, just give up and abandon the platform. So, when an app is submitted, it is reviewed, and if it's found to be buggy, or it doesn't work, or it works in an unconventional way, then they don't want it. And they're not in a particular hurry to waste more time on you when you didn't follow the instructions the first time. I don't know, I'm just speculating. But this seems plausible to me.
mlinsey 17y ago
I think you may be right, but I have a couple misgivings. The year that iPhone existed without the App Store, no smartphone competitors came close to replicating it's core functionality and user experience. I don't think that's quite true anymore, and so I think that the App Store is one of the iPhone's key advantages. Specifically, the iPhone didn't need the App Store to differentiate itself from RIM and WinMo in 2007, but I think it absolutely needs the App Store to differentiate itself from the Pre and Android in 2009. I don't think there is one killer 3rd-party app on the phone that everyone needs to have, but there could very well be many third party apps that smaller niches need to have. For me personally, MLB At-Bat (live streaming of baseball games) and the Kindle reader are actually the two biggest factors keeping me from switching to Droid. Those applications could easily be ported to Android, but haven't been yet, and in both cases a third party holds the distribution rights for the content so it's not like me or another hacker could replicate those apps easily.
gcheong 17y ago
It may not have started out as central to the experience, but I think that it's starting to quickly become just that and Apple knows this or at least they want it to be. So far all the recent iPhone commercials I've seen only focus on the thousands of apps you can get for the iphone - not the iphone's "awesome" feature set. I was looking at a friend's iphone the other day and I saw page after page of 3rd party applications. My wife wanted an iPod Touch because she saw some applications she wanted. Another person I know bought an iPod Touch just so they can run a bird identification program. I don't think these are unusual cases. What's funny is that in the beginning, Apple didn't even want to provide an API for native applications. They wanted all developers to use the Web API. When developers balked at that idea Apple reluctantly laid out plans for native applications.
- CamperBob 17y ago
  What's funny is that in the beginning, Apple didn't even want to provide an API for native applications. They wanted all developers to use the Web API. When developers balked at that idea Apple reluctantly laid out plans for native applications. I wouldn't believe that for a minute. The App Store would have been part of the iPhone product plan from day 1. It's too big, too complex, too strategic, and (yes) too well-executed to be a panicked response to developers' demands. That's how Apple under Jobs has always done things: major features are not "supported" or "planned" or "offered" or "part of the company's philosophy"... at least, not until they appear out of nowhere one day.
  - tjmc 17y ago
    I'm not so sure about that. From an interview with Steve Jobs in the NY Times 1 Nov 2007: “I don’t want people to think of this as a computer,” he said. “I think of it as reinventing the phone.” "We define everything that is on the phone,” he said. “You don’t want your phone to be like a PC. The last thing you want is to have loaded three apps on your phone and then you go to make a call and it doesn’t work anymore. These are more like iPods than they are like computers.” The iPhone, he insisted, would not look like the rest of the wireless industry. “These are devices that need to work, and you can’t do that if you load any software on them,” he said. “That doesn’t mean there’s not going to be software to buy that you can load on them coming from us. It doesn’t mean we have to write it all, but it means it has to be more of a controlled environment.”
dagw 17y ago
I know lots of people who bought in iPhone or or iPod touch because it could run some unique app. It was a different app in each case and in each case it was an app I personally saw no use for, but for them it was a killer app. Any app that makes someone get an iPhone instead of something else is a "killer app" as far as Apple is concerned, even if it only sold a total of 27 copies and lost the developer a lot of money. So even if the iPhone doesn't have any one killer app, the sheer diversity of apps means there is probably a killer app out there for most people, and that is vital for Apple.
wvenable 17y ago
> While apps are certainly a major component to the iPhone, are they really the major factor in end-user adoption? All the ads I've seen lately for the iPhone are of the "there's an app for that" variety. So Apple themselves seem to think that the apps are a critical factor. That being said, the iPhone sold very well before there were any apps at all.
- bumblebird 17y ago
  They're a good gimmick. But at the end of the day, half of the apps you can find equivalent web versions that run just as well in the browser. I agree with others - the app store is not that important. It's a fun thing. I'm not convinced it'll even be around/relevant in 5 years.
hyperbovine 17y ago
There was a story on here (or somewhere) a while back about how 70% of iPhone apps go unused after the first month of purchasing. Couldn't agree more. AFAICT there is no killer 3rd party app for the iPhone. I'd posit that 95% of the iPhone's awesomeness is wrapped up in the following four (OEM) components: 1) Browser, 2) Maps, 3) E-mail / SMS, 4) Visual voicemail. Everything else, including games, is just fluff for most users. Relative to those four, I think the app store is a relatively small driver of adoption. I don't think a lot of people are that wedded to it, and I don't think it makes Apple a particularly large amount of money either. Which would explain why they continue to neglect it in spite of the vociferous scorn of a few programmers and pundits.
Retric 17y ago
Thank you, I just got an iPhone and I have found zero apps worth downloading. Take this 35 list of great apps http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/08/15/the-35-best-iphone-apps-of-the-year-so-far/ http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/08/15/the-35-best-iphone-apps... and find something useful or fun.
- gridspy 17y ago
  Gosh, I had no idea little quality software was on offer until now. I can only see one or two useful apps in there.
- nearestneighbor 17y ago
  Have you tried http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/app-attack-top-15-iphone-apps/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/app-attack-top-15-iphone...

by JunkDNA 17y ago

joe_the_user 17y ago

I think you miss the point. Developer relations are central to Apple as a whole. Apples needs iPhone developers, desktop developers, web developers and developers for whatever they do after the iPhone. If Apple creates hostile feelings in the developer community with its App Store behavior, Apple is going to have ongoing problems regardless of whether it needs third party developers at the moment.

bumblebird 17y ago
Not really :/ They need people developing webapps. To be honest, I think the appstore is just a stopgap until webapps become mature enough to take over (And wifi is prevalent enough). I wouldn't put too much effort into the appstore, and I don't really blame Apple for being half hearted about it. It's certainly not the future.

tjogin 17y ago

You're sort of right, but that's true for all other platforms as well, so it doesn't really tell us anything about the state of app use on the iPhone platform. The OS bundled ones are the ones people use the most. Across the board. If I had to guess, I'd say third party apps are just as often or more used on iPhone than on, say, Windows and Mac OS X. Simply because, on iPhone, a lot of web apps out there are used via a special-purpose iPhone app rather than the web interface.

mikebo 17y ago
I don't agree. On the desktop there are 'killer apps' like Photoshop, Excel, Quicken, Final Cut, etc. I don't think there are any killer mobile apps yet. Maybe for some it's FourSquare or FB, but I can't think of one app I'd miss that's not built in.
- jhancock 17y ago
  We probably have a different view on what is a killer app. From my perspective: Windows - Outlook Express, IE. OS X - Mail, Safari. I can't recall the last time I fired up "Photoshop, Excel, Quicken, Final Cut" and I bet 90% of randomly selected users couldn't either.
  - netcan 17y ago
    Maybe this theoretical question. If you polled a random user of, what are the chances you would find an app that they will get very pissed off at it's disappearance? What are the chances they will actually skip platforms? On Windows or OSX, I think the answer is high. On iphone, maybe not.
    - alttab 17y ago
      As reliance on mobile devices and their capabilities increase, this could become less of an issue. It is still a luxury for most people - "oh cool look at this app," but it still comes down to those that can afford an iPhone. I can imagine there are many family squabbles involving parents that bought their kid an iPhone that racked up an App Store bill the parents didn't originally intend. iPhone is not a business phone overall - and therefore doesn't have "critical apps".

shiro 17y ago

I too noticed the similarity to the console game development. Usually console game developers have to go through lengthy approval process of the platform provider. Still developers accept that (although grudgingly), since once approved and the released, that will be the end of the process; no more bug fixes; the team dissolves and everybody starts working on the next project. (PC games are different, and certainly network games are continuous development, but console games have this feeling of "done is done"). Part of it may be a byproduct of the way the console games distributed on ROMs or disks. That may change, for consoles nowadays have network connection and can get updates anytime. There's another part, however, that some type of games fits this "done is done" philosophy. Like novels or movies, which you don't expect them to be improved over time. Well, I don't defend the app store process either, and I believe majority of software should be developed in the iterative process. It's just interesting that games may be a marginal area that has some peculiar properties.

ams6110 17y ago
Here's my guess about Apple's thinking. Note that I don't own an iPhone or iTouch. So I don't have any experience with the App Store or submitting applications to it, and can't say that it is or is not working this way but.... Apple wants iPhone apps to "just work" They don't want a plethora of buggy, half-baked, inconsistent apps in their store, because this would diminish the brand. It would be like a typical Linux distribution where half the apps implement their own peculiar UI conventions, crash often, or just don't work at all. So it is like developing a game. You get one release, one chance, to get it right. It needs to work. Maybe a lot of app developers don't get this. There are published standards about conventions, icons, behavior, etc. The app is expected to be FINISHED and WORKING before you submit it to the store. Don't count on deploying 27 follow up patches and updates to customers -- imagine the chaos if every iPhone app needed updates multiple times. Users (most of whom are not hackers) would, after a while, just give up and abandon the platform. So, when an app is submitted, it is reviewed, and if it's found to be buggy, or it doesn't work, or it works in an unconventional way, then they don't want it. And they're not in a particular hurry to waste more time on you when you didn't follow the instructions the first time. I don't know, I'm just speculating. But this seems plausible to me.

mlinsey 17y ago

I think you may be right, but I have a couple misgivings. The year that iPhone existed without the App Store, no smartphone competitors came close to replicating it's core functionality and user experience. I don't think that's quite true anymore, and so I think that the App Store is one of the iPhone's key advantages. Specifically, the iPhone didn't need the App Store to differentiate itself from RIM and WinMo in 2007, but I think it absolutely needs the App Store to differentiate itself from the Pre and Android in 2009. I don't think there is one killer 3rd-party app on the phone that everyone needs to have, but there could very well be many third party apps that smaller niches need to have. For me personally, MLB At-Bat (live streaming of baseball games) and the Kindle reader are actually the two biggest factors keeping me from switching to Droid. Those applications could easily be ported to Android, but haven't been yet, and in both cases a third party holds the distribution rights for the content so it's not like me or another hacker could replicate those apps easily.

gcheong 17y ago

It may not have started out as central to the experience, but I think that it's starting to quickly become just that and Apple knows this or at least they want it to be. So far all the recent iPhone commercials I've seen only focus on the thousands of apps you can get for the iphone - not the iphone's "awesome" feature set. I was looking at a friend's iphone the other day and I saw page after page of 3rd party applications. My wife wanted an iPod Touch because she saw some applications she wanted. Another person I know bought an iPod Touch just so they can run a bird identification program. I don't think these are unusual cases. What's funny is that in the beginning, Apple didn't even want to provide an API for native applications. They wanted all developers to use the Web API. When developers balked at that idea Apple reluctantly laid out plans for native applications.

CamperBob 17y ago
What's funny is that in the beginning, Apple didn't even want to provide an API for native applications. They wanted all developers to use the Web API. When developers balked at that idea Apple reluctantly laid out plans for native applications. I wouldn't believe that for a minute. The App Store would have been part of the iPhone product plan from day 1. It's too big, too complex, too strategic, and (yes) too well-executed to be a panicked response to developers' demands. That's how Apple under Jobs has always done things: major features are not "supported" or "planned" or "offered" or "part of the company's philosophy"... at least, not until they appear out of nowhere one day.
- tjmc 17y ago
  I'm not so sure about that. From an interview with Steve Jobs in the NY Times 1 Nov 2007: “I don’t want people to think of this as a computer,” he said. “I think of it as reinventing the phone.” "We define everything that is on the phone,” he said. “You don’t want your phone to be like a PC. The last thing you want is to have loaded three apps on your phone and then you go to make a call and it doesn’t work anymore. These are more like iPods than they are like computers.” The iPhone, he insisted, would not look like the rest of the wireless industry. “These are devices that need to work, and you can’t do that if you load any software on them,” he said. “That doesn’t mean there’s not going to be software to buy that you can load on them coming from us. It doesn’t mean we have to write it all, but it means it has to be more of a controlled environment.”

dagw 17y ago

I know lots of people who bought in iPhone or or iPod touch because it could run some unique app. It was a different app in each case and in each case it was an app I personally saw no use for, but for them it was a killer app. Any app that makes someone get an iPhone instead of something else is a "killer app" as far as Apple is concerned, even if it only sold a total of 27 copies and lost the developer a lot of money. So even if the iPhone doesn't have any one killer app, the sheer diversity of apps means there is probably a killer app out there for most people, and that is vital for Apple.

wvenable 17y ago

> While apps are certainly a major component to the iPhone, are they really the major factor in end-user adoption? All the ads I've seen lately for the iPhone are of the "there's an app for that" variety. So Apple themselves seem to think that the apps are a critical factor. That being said, the iPhone sold very well before there were any apps at all.

bumblebird 17y ago
They're a good gimmick. But at the end of the day, half of the apps you can find equivalent web versions that run just as well in the browser. I agree with others - the app store is not that important. It's a fun thing. I'm not convinced it'll even be around/relevant in 5 years.

hyperbovine 17y ago

There was a story on here (or somewhere) a while back about how 70% of iPhone apps go unused after the first month of purchasing. Couldn't agree more. AFAICT there is no killer 3rd party app for the iPhone. I'd posit that 95% of the iPhone's awesomeness is wrapped up in the following four (OEM) components: 1) Browser, 2) Maps, 3) E-mail / SMS, 4) Visual voicemail. Everything else, including games, is just fluff for most users. Relative to those four, I think the app store is a relatively small driver of adoption. I don't think a lot of people are that wedded to it, and I don't think it makes Apple a particularly large amount of money either. Which would explain why they continue to neglect it in spite of the vociferous scorn of a few programmers and pundits.

Retric 17y ago

Thank you, I just got an iPhone and I have found zero apps worth downloading. Take this 35 list of great apps http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/08/15/the-35-best-iphone-apps-of-the-year-so-far/ http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/08/15/the-35-best-iphone-apps... and find something useful or fun.

gridspy 17y ago
Gosh, I had no idea little quality software was on offer until now. I can only see one or two useful apps in there.
nearestneighbor 17y ago
Have you tried http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/app-attack-top-15-iphone-apps/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/app-attack-top-15-iphone...