7 ms·

If the nail salon owners all followed the law and paid their employees properly, the average price of service would increase. The race to the bottom is only bec

by com2kid 12y ago

If the nail salon owners all followed the law and paid their employees properly, the average price of service would increase. The race to the bottom is only because of en masse violations of the law. The state needs to do their job. One year and a thousand or so lawsuits (exactly 0% chance the state has the resources to do this) and the problem will go away. Manicures will end up costing $20 instead of $10, and workers will be able to live like people and not animals.

mynameishere 12y ago
How do want the state to do it's job? Because step one would be a whole lot of deportations. There's not much political support for that, especially in Manhattan, and if you have the government selectively enforcing wage laws while ignoring immigration laws, you've got an glaringly corrupt system. So they ignore it...
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  "There's not much political support for that, especially in Manhattan," Either fix laws or enforce them. There should not be other options save for failed states.
prostoalex 12y ago
The state does its job http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/HowToReportViolationtoBOFE.htm http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/HowToReportViolationtoBOFE.htm What makes you think the cosmetologists are not owners themselves (and hence self-employed, exempt from minimum wage), 1099 independent contractors (and hence exempt) or simply undocumented in the United States?
- Retric 12y ago
  It is very unlikely the IRS would qualify them as 1099 independent. Undocumented workers still qualify for minimum wage laws even if their unlikely to fight the issue. As to the owner issue, that's possible, but everyone would need a near equil share or minimum wage laws still apply. AKA giving someone 0.1% generally does not let you dodge minimum wage laws.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > It's vary unlikly the IRS would qualify them as 1099 independent. As I understand it, they often set their own hours, supply their own equipment, control how they do their job, and rent space in which to do it from the establishment in which they do it, which provides services like centralized collection and distribution of customer payments. I'd like to see the argument as to why, using the actual criteria used to define contractor vs. employee relations, they wouldn't be classed as contractors.
    - Retric 12y ago
      Oddly enough an extended period without any pay is not really a direct issue in terms of minimum wage. But, is a vary strong suggestion that someone is an employee. From the IRS list the examples given seem clear cut. http://www.careerusa.org/resources/career-files/100-resources/career-files/12g3-w2-or-1099/281-1099-vs-w-2-an-irs-checklist-.html http://www.careerusa.org/resources/career-files/100-resource... 1. Fails location test, likely others. 2. A no pay period fails this test. 3. Fails 4. Fails 5. likely fails 6. Fails 7. likely fails. A predefined time to show up counts as set hours. 8. likely fails. 9. Fails 10. (case by case basis) 11. No reports, but direct supervision likely fails. 12. likely fails. 13. likely pass. 14. likely pass. 15. Fail 16. ? depends 17. likely fails. 18. likely fails. 19. Fails 20. Fails
      - Domenic_S 12y ago
        Eh, IT consulting fails a whole bunch of those too but we still do 1099. The 20-point test is a guideline, not hard and fast law. (Aside: That's probably why BigCos hire contractors by making them go W2 with a staffing agency and contracting the staffing agency to make you available full time.)
    - whyaduck 12y ago
      What I got from the article was that they did NOT set their hours, train themselves, etc. Workers are picked up in vans by their employers, are trained by their employers, directly supervised (very closely) by their employers, etc. About as cut and dried as it gets.
mason240 12y ago
>Manicures will end up costing $20 instead of $10, and workers will be able to live like people and not animals. Are you accounting for the loss of customers that doubling the prices would cause?
- davesque 12y ago
  Maybe that would show that there is no viable market for manicuring services and that people doing that for a living are better off finding another line of work? I'm not saying this is what I think, just a counter-point.
- dandelany 12y ago
  Demand will certainly decrease. Some nail salons will have to close and we will find out the number of legal nail salons the market bears. Those who go out of business will need to find another line of work. I see no problem with this. It will be a turbulent time for some people but that's not a valid reason to continue to prop up a badly-regulated economy that relies on illegally underpaying its workers.
  - dantheman 12y ago
    If these people had better options don't you think they would take them?
    - erikpukinskis 12y ago
      It's disappointing to me that you are choosing to encourage practices that reinforce the bad options instead of thinking about how to grow the pool of good ones.
      - dantheman 12y ago
        Sorry, may argument wasn't clear - it wasn't so much that the practices don't need to improve, but that the real problem is that people have to settle for this. It might be more cost effective and provide a better outcome for those involved if we focused on providing them with the skills and the knowledge that they could take advantage of better opportunities and turn these ones down. I think everyone should be treated with dignity and respect, but I have strong fear about removing the bottom rungs of the ladder - sometimes the value that people provide is well below their cost and they need to get started.
guard-of-terra 12y ago
Yeah, plunder some salons, get things fixed. It is apparent that many societies unlearn how to get things done. Instead we learned to mourn things we can not right.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  Getting things done is politically risky in modern democracies. It's much better to just notice the problem and push the blame around.
- srpablo 12y ago
  > It is apparent that many societies unlearn how to get things done. Instead we learned to mourn things we can not right. We can go to the moon, perform fusion on atoms, but finding an arrangement where large pluralities of hard-working people live better than $30 a day, after months without pay, and a $100 down payment in the most expensive city in the USA is something 'we can not right.' To propose policy that would harm businesses who subsist only by virtue of (by any reasonable definition) exploitation is to 'plunder some salons.' …I wonder what guides your brain to believe that?
dba7dba 12y ago
Guess what. Some shop owners and workers may be out of work. But the state/city regulators/inspectors that didn't do their job and allowed this to grow will be fine. No punishment of any kind and nice fat pension waiting.
mikejholly 12y ago
Hear, hear.

by com2kid 12y ago

mynameishere 12y ago

How do want the state to do it's job? Because step one would be a whole lot of deportations. There's not much political support for that, especially in Manhattan, and if you have the government selectively enforcing wage laws while ignoring immigration laws, you've got an glaringly corrupt system. So they ignore it...

guard-of-terra 12y ago
"There's not much political support for that, especially in Manhattan," Either fix laws or enforce them. There should not be other options save for failed states.

prostoalex 12y ago

The state does its job http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/HowToReportViolationtoBOFE.htm http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/HowToReportViolationtoBOFE.htm What makes you think the cosmetologists are not owners themselves (and hence self-employed, exempt from minimum wage), 1099 independent contractors (and hence exempt) or simply undocumented in the United States?

Retric 12y ago
It is very unlikely the IRS would qualify them as 1099 independent. Undocumented workers still qualify for minimum wage laws even if their unlikely to fight the issue. As to the owner issue, that's possible, but everyone would need a near equil share or minimum wage laws still apply. AKA giving someone 0.1% generally does not let you dodge minimum wage laws.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > It's vary unlikly the IRS would qualify them as 1099 independent. As I understand it, they often set their own hours, supply their own equipment, control how they do their job, and rent space in which to do it from the establishment in which they do it, which provides services like centralized collection and distribution of customer payments. I'd like to see the argument as to why, using the actual criteria used to define contractor vs. employee relations, they wouldn't be classed as contractors.
  - Retric 12y ago
    Oddly enough an extended period without any pay is not really a direct issue in terms of minimum wage. But, is a vary strong suggestion that someone is an employee. From the IRS list the examples given seem clear cut. http://www.careerusa.org/resources/career-files/100-resources/career-files/12g3-w2-or-1099/281-1099-vs-w-2-an-irs-checklist-.html http://www.careerusa.org/resources/career-files/100-resource... 1. Fails location test, likely others. 2. A no pay period fails this test. 3. Fails 4. Fails 5. likely fails 6. Fails 7. likely fails. A predefined time to show up counts as set hours. 8. likely fails. 9. Fails 10. (case by case basis) 11. No reports, but direct supervision likely fails. 12. likely fails. 13. likely pass. 14. likely pass. 15. Fail 16. ? depends 17. likely fails. 18. likely fails. 19. Fails 20. Fails
    - Domenic_S 12y ago
      Eh, IT consulting fails a whole bunch of those too but we still do 1099. The 20-point test is a guideline, not hard and fast law. (Aside: That's probably why BigCos hire contractors by making them go W2 with a staffing agency and contracting the staffing agency to make you available full time.)
  - whyaduck 12y ago
    What I got from the article was that they did NOT set their hours, train themselves, etc. Workers are picked up in vans by their employers, are trained by their employers, directly supervised (very closely) by their employers, etc. About as cut and dried as it gets.

mason240 12y ago

>Manicures will end up costing $20 instead of $10, and workers will be able to live like people and not animals. Are you accounting for the loss of customers that doubling the prices would cause?

davesque 12y ago
Maybe that would show that there is no viable market for manicuring services and that people doing that for a living are better off finding another line of work? I'm not saying this is what I think, just a counter-point.
dandelany 12y ago
Demand will certainly decrease. Some nail salons will have to close and we will find out the number of legal nail salons the market bears. Those who go out of business will need to find another line of work. I see no problem with this. It will be a turbulent time for some people but that's not a valid reason to continue to prop up a badly-regulated economy that relies on illegally underpaying its workers.
- dantheman 12y ago
  If these people had better options don't you think they would take them?
  - erikpukinskis 12y ago
    It's disappointing to me that you are choosing to encourage practices that reinforce the bad options instead of thinking about how to grow the pool of good ones.
    - dantheman 12y ago
      Sorry, may argument wasn't clear - it wasn't so much that the practices don't need to improve, but that the real problem is that people have to settle for this. It might be more cost effective and provide a better outcome for those involved if we focused on providing them with the skills and the knowledge that they could take advantage of better opportunities and turn these ones down. I think everyone should be treated with dignity and respect, but I have strong fear about removing the bottom rungs of the ladder - sometimes the value that people provide is well below their cost and they need to get started.

guard-of-terra 12y ago

Yeah, plunder some salons, get things fixed. It is apparent that many societies unlearn how to get things done. Instead we learned to mourn things we can not right.

TeMPOraL 12y ago
Getting things done is politically risky in modern democracies. It's much better to just notice the problem and push the blame around.
srpablo 12y ago
> It is apparent that many societies unlearn how to get things done. Instead we learned to mourn things we can not right. We can go to the moon, perform fusion on atoms, but finding an arrangement where large pluralities of hard-working people live better than $30 a day, after months without pay, and a $100 down payment in the most expensive city in the USA is something 'we can not right.' To propose policy that would harm businesses who subsist only by virtue of (by any reasonable definition) exploitation is to 'plunder some salons.' …I wonder what guides your brain to believe that?

dba7dba 12y ago

Guess what. Some shop owners and workers may be out of work. But the state/city regulators/inspectors that didn't do their job and allowed this to grow will be fine. No punishment of any kind and nice fat pension waiting.

mikejholly 12y ago

Hear, hear.