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Unlike the arguable Manning, Snowden had a deliberate, slow, controlled release of information. No informants were exposed; et cetera. What is wrong with respo

Unlike the arguable Manning, Snowden had a deliberate, slow, controlled release of information. No informants were exposed; et cetera. What is wrong with responsible whistleblowing of unlawful activity? I think it should be encouraged!

plorg 11y ago
While it has certainly turned out that way, considering the process of dissemination, both Snowden and Manning dumped a pile of documents on a third party. It's that third party that, in the case of Manning's files (WikiLeaks), was hasty and cavalier in its release of information, whereas Greenwald/Poitras/Etc. have been more careful and deliberate in their releases. To the extent that the individual leakers could have some sort of culpability, it would be for the people with whom they chose to share their information, though I grant that the who is not independent of the how.
- scott_karana 11y ago
  You're right. Greenwald and Poitras deserve a lot of credit for the responsible dissemination. To his credit, Snowden did attempt to vet reporters as I recall. ;)
- nitrogen 11y ago
  I seem to remember that Wikileaks asked some part of the US government for help redacting the Manning leaks to prevent jeopardizing lives and missions, but they refused.
rl3 11y ago
Snowden's document leaks, and by extension the journalists with whom he entrusted them to, were not restricted in scope to only disclosing illegal domestic collection activities. In fact, the majority of disclosures were foreign in nature, and of those, quite a few ran counter not only to American foreign policy and security interests, but Western interests in general. The articles exposing intelligence activities in Indonesia were but one example.[1] Indonesia is such a nice, non-repressive country[2], and it's not like they aren't making significant progress on the human rights front[3]. How dare western intelligence spy on them. /s Other examples include severe damage to foreign relations with China[4], coverage of offensive capabilities such as network infiltration and hardware implantation[5], the CIA using co-traveler inference to shake tails in the field [6], and more. Today's news is certainly a positive thing, but I think it's fair to say Snowden's whistleblowing is far from responsible, even if it isn't wantonly reckless (i.e. Manning). - [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/18/australia-tried-to-monitor-indonesian-presidents-phone http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/18/australia-tried... [2] http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/06/08/letter-president-yudhoyono-indonesias-human-rights-commitments http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/06/08/letter-president-yudhoyon... [3] https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/03/04/indonesia-begins-roll-back-degrading-virginity-tests https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/03/04/indonesia-begins-roll-ba... [4] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/13/snowden-revelations-nsa-china-relations http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/13/snowden-revelat... [5] http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-nsa-uses-powerful-toolbox-in-effort-to-spy-on-global-networks-a-940969.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-nsa-uses-power... [6] http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-tracking-cellphone-locations-worldwide-snowden-documents-show/2013/12/04/5492873a-5cf2-11e3-bc56-c6ca94801fac_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-tr... (very last paragraph)
- ta0967 11y ago
  oh, i didn't know your uncle Bob's spying on me (a "westerner") was in my interest. thank you so much for the enlightment! in other news, Indonesia's oppressive regime has been propped up by the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suharto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suharto
  - rl3 11y ago
    If an oppressive regime is created or perpetuated by Cold War-era anti-communist policy, that's certainly a bad thing. Especially so if the regime then commits atrocities (e.g. as in Indonesia). That said, I fail to see how such history should have any bearing on whether or not Indonesia is a valid signals intelligence target today. If anything, it provides compelling justification to continue such programs. In my opinion, countries that have terrible human rights records generally lose their right to complain about privacy when spied on by countries with significantly better records.
    - beedogs 11y ago
      Not sure what you mean by your last sentence; the US has a pretty abysmal human rights record, as well.
      - rl3 11y ago
        Relative to most other western democracies, the human rights record of the US is obviously profoundly deficient in certain areas. When compared to Indonesia however, in terms of how citizens are treated, I'd argue it's actually quite good.
- nitrogen 11y ago
  The citizens of a representative democracy have the right to know what the government is doing on their behalf, either domestically or abroad. Saying that the Snowden revelations damaged relations with another country is like an adulteress complaining that her snitching boyfriend damaged her relationship with her husband. The crime occurred long before the revelation...

plorg 11y ago

While it has certainly turned out that way, considering the process of dissemination, both Snowden and Manning dumped a pile of documents on a third party. It's that third party that, in the case of Manning's files (WikiLeaks), was hasty and cavalier in its release of information, whereas Greenwald/Poitras/Etc. have been more careful and deliberate in their releases. To the extent that the individual leakers could have some sort of culpability, it would be for the people with whom they chose to share their information, though I grant that the who is not independent of the how.

scott_karana 11y ago
You're right. Greenwald and Poitras deserve a lot of credit for the responsible dissemination. To his credit, Snowden did attempt to vet reporters as I recall. ;)
nitrogen 11y ago
I seem to remember that Wikileaks asked some part of the US government for help redacting the Manning leaks to prevent jeopardizing lives and missions, but they refused.

rl3 11y ago

Snowden's document leaks, and by extension the journalists with whom he entrusted them to, were not restricted in scope to only disclosing illegal domestic collection activities. In fact, the majority of disclosures were foreign in nature, and of those, quite a few ran counter not only to American foreign policy and security interests, but Western interests in general. The articles exposing intelligence activities in Indonesia were but one example.[1] Indonesia is such a nice, non-repressive country[2], and it's not like they aren't making significant progress on the human rights front[3]. How dare western intelligence spy on them. /s Other examples include severe damage to foreign relations with China[4], coverage of offensive capabilities such as network infiltration and hardware implantation[5], the CIA using co-traveler inference to shake tails in the field [6], and more. Today's news is certainly a positive thing, but I think it's fair to say Snowden's whistleblowing is far from responsible, even if it isn't wantonly reckless (i.e. Manning). - [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/18/australia-tried-to-monitor-indonesian-presidents-phone http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/18/australia-tried... [2] http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/06/08/letter-president-yudhoyono-indonesias-human-rights-commitments http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/06/08/letter-president-yudhoyon... [3] https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/03/04/indonesia-begins-roll-back-degrading-virginity-tests https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/03/04/indonesia-begins-roll-ba... [4] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/13/snowden-revelations-nsa-china-relations http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/13/snowden-revelat... [5] http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-nsa-uses-powerful-toolbox-in-effort-to-spy-on-global-networks-a-940969.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-nsa-uses-power... [6] http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-tracking-cellphone-locations-worldwide-snowden-documents-show/2013/12/04/5492873a-5cf2-11e3-bc56-c6ca94801fac_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-tr... (very last paragraph)

ta0967 11y ago
oh, i didn't know your uncle Bob's spying on me (a "westerner") was in my interest. thank you so much for the enlightment! in other news, Indonesia's oppressive regime has been propped up by the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suharto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suharto
- rl3 11y ago
  If an oppressive regime is created or perpetuated by Cold War-era anti-communist policy, that's certainly a bad thing. Especially so if the regime then commits atrocities (e.g. as in Indonesia). That said, I fail to see how such history should have any bearing on whether or not Indonesia is a valid signals intelligence target today. If anything, it provides compelling justification to continue such programs. In my opinion, countries that have terrible human rights records generally lose their right to complain about privacy when spied on by countries with significantly better records.
  - beedogs 11y ago
    Not sure what you mean by your last sentence; the US has a pretty abysmal human rights record, as well.
    - rl3 11y ago
      Relative to most other western democracies, the human rights record of the US is obviously profoundly deficient in certain areas. When compared to Indonesia however, in terms of how citizens are treated, I'd argue it's actually quite good.
nitrogen 11y ago
The citizens of a representative democracy have the right to know what the government is doing on their behalf, either domestically or abroad. Saying that the Snowden revelations damaged relations with another country is like an adulteress complaining that her snitching boyfriend damaged her relationship with her husband. The crime occurred long before the revelation...