16 ms·

I would have hired Doug, but...

505 points by nicolethenerd 11y ago

bonif 11y ago
"We Make Shitty Software... With Bugs!", [0] best slogan ever [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Videotext https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Videotext
jgrahamc 11y ago
"Unlike Engelbart, I have re-tooled. I now work in JavaScript in the browser and on the server. I had to walk away from the codebase that I loved. I understood that the price of relevance is to give up fighting at some point and settle for a partial victory. I think I was right in the development environment I created. But right doesn't mean the world uses what you created." Yep. That's the key to staying relevant: change with the times.
- bentcorner 11y ago
  I think I'm coming to grasps with this too. I'm over 30 and have spent most of my life building large desktop applications in C/C++. I want to eventually work remote, and looking at what's out there, there are very few opportunities with someone with my skillset. It's all modern frameworks and languages. So, I'm spending some of my own time learning some of this stuff.
  - _yosefk 11y ago
    Embedded programming is much more stable wrt languages and (often non-existent) frameworks. Nice for C/C++ devs.
    - sgt101 11y ago
      I worked as a C and then C++ dev for a few years and then I started a Ph.D writing a C++ code base. I remember the day that I got java 0.7 running on my spark 20. I would never touch the STL again, never have to worry about malloc and #def overwrites. No more gdb. There's not much nice for c/c++ devs, pity them.
      - tosseraccount 11y ago
        How many java programs are running your desktop now? How many C/C++ programs?
    - housel 11y ago
      Embedded programming is also harder to do remotely due to needing hands-on access to development hardware, frequent access to hardware engineers, expensive test equipment, and so forth.
    - vonmoltke 11y ago
      It's also a silo that can be hard to get out of and is very hard to get into, because all you do is C or C++ work and everyone wants C or C++ experts for their jobs.
- curun1r 11y ago
  This. I see too many older developers who complain about ageism, but what's really going on is that they're essentially the same developer they were 2-3 years into their career. If you've been working in the industry for over 20 years, employers can and should expect that you've made the most of it. Those developers have very few problems with ageism. It's the ones that have become comfortable and stagnated that have trouble.
  - hoprocker 11y ago
    Who was it that said, "It's not 10 years worth of experience, it's the same year repeated 10 times"?
    - spacemanmatt 11y ago
      Someone with 10 years of experience, unable to recognize the nuances one picks up by repeating those 10 years of experience with 10 years of context to make better sense of it.
      - hoprocker 11y ago
        Excellent point; that 10 years can make you a specialist.
  - scrozier 11y ago
    I am 57 and quite current. I have launched several startups and kept fresh constantly. My current client has me doing lots of leading edge stuff that some of their younger devs couldn't do. And yet I do feel the ageism. I understand it and I'm not angry about it, but it's real, nonetheless. It's not a good feeling.
    - 31reasons 11y ago
      What kind of ageism have you experienced ? Can you describe some experiences ?
  - rayiner 11y ago
- ams6110 11y ago
  For me, the thing that gets a bit discouraging at times is the feeling of riding a slow-motion merry-go-round. Every 10 years or so you see the same ideas start to come around again, only with some new paint and landscaping. I have found myself more than once thinking that learning about some new trendy buzzword is just ultimately a waste of time, since I will barely have mastered it before it's been replaced by the next new/old thing. On the other hand, it gets easier since none of the concepts are new anymore, and I tell myself, "hey, if you want to pay me to build a client-server app in the browser like it was 1995 (substitute Powerbuilder for Firefox/Chrome), great, happy to take your money."
  - timmy-turner 11y ago
    And you hopefully have learnt from the mistakes Powerbuilder did back in '95, not making them again. So in theory you're ahead of the crowd of today. Though that means that you have acknowledge that things were not all that great back then as you remember - which seems to get harder as one grows older.
  - derefr 11y ago
    I see the same thing, but feel much more optimistic about it: it's not, in my mind, that tech is effectively fashion, but rather that there are "futurist" ideas that tech keeps trying and which keep not getting adoption, because it's not their time yet—the state of the art isn't there to make the experience for the average consumer (or the average developer) justify the costs. An example of what I mean: the Apple Newton, and then 10 years later the Palm Pilot, and then 10 years later Windows CE and flip-phones supporting J2ME, and then 10 years later touchscreen phones and tablets. There have been four generations of "mobile app developers", but only the latest generation has seen any traction for their apps. This time the idea stuck; it will stay around, rather than coming around again. If something like Paypal's prototype service (beaming money from one Palm Pilot to another) were set in this "revolution" of mobile instead of that one, it would be much more successful.
    - smitherfield 11y ago
      Not to be that guy, but Apple Newton: 1993 Palm Pilot: 1997 Smartphones: ~2002 iPhone: 2007 Android: 2008 iPad: 2010
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  Generally sound, but there does seem to be a certain breed of vanguard who lives off being heterodox with regards to the computing mainstream, yet functions just fine and likely harbors plenty of insights. Much of the Go team lived full time on Plan 9 at one point or another, and it's not like all of them were Rob Pike or Ken Thompson. There is value in keeping up with trends, but on the flip side there is value in sticking with sound ideas, even if they are not necessarily attractive in the labor market, and learn enough to be employable or self-sustainable in some regard. I would say server-side JS might not necessarily be a great long-term prospect, at least in part due to limitations with SMP and unwieldy concurrency models. Even if it persists, the value of knowing might be more of a labor necessity than any inherent utility. Because programming operates on lots of trends and conjecture, knowing which ones not to waste time on is a much more valuable skill than jumping to stay "relevant".
- wwweston 11y ago
  Something I've found as I've gotten older, though, is that I have a stronger and stronger sense of wasted time every time I have to learn a new way of doing the same thing. Particularly if the new way involves a bleeding edge leaky abstraction. Because every hour I spend investing in a new stack and its details is an hour I can't spend thinking about product-level details, can't spend learning more learning about organizational-level matters, can't spend on improving more timeless investments like statistics, math, and soft/interpersonal skills. Not to mention fun things like music and travel and enjoying the company of people you like. It wouldn't be so bad if most of the new shiny things in the software world were an order of magnitude better. But saying that 1/4 new frameworks or even languages present tha kind of power/productivity jump would be optimistic.
  - fsk 11y ago
    That is one of my biggest concerns. A lot of the new tools are just different, not better. But you're expected to know all of them. It's also hard to predict what will be popular five years from now. I thought that using Javascript on the server was pants-on-head retarded, but it's very popular, with no signs of passing on.
    - georgemcbay 11y ago
      " I thought that using Javascript on the server was pants-on-head retarded, but it's very popular" Well, there's no law against things being both terrible and popular. It is quite common.
      - fsk 11y ago
        What does it say about software as a serious career, if tools that are awful are popular and widely used?
guard-of-terra 11y ago
I'm 30 now (from time to time I feel that I've already lived enough and am mostly done), the idea of expecting at least 30 productive years ahead of me is intriguing.
- lamuerteflaca 11y ago
  What have you done that makes you feel satisfied with your life? Just curious. I'm 37 and feel like I'm just getting started. Keep in mind that I have wasted very little time. Always working on some project here or there. Right now I'm planning my next fourty years. So it really makes me wonder how you can feel you are done.
  - guard-of-terra 11y ago
    Maybe it is exactly because I've "wasted" a lot of time on leisure activities so I have quite some fond memories. Did some nice things professionally, too.
    - Revex 11y ago
      I am right there with you. I am a little over half way through my 30th year of life. I have "wasted" a lot by having a ton of fun and enjoying myself, while also getting plenty done professionally. I am excited about the future, and also intrigued with this concept of another 30-50 years of productivity, but like you, sometimes I can accept a fate of being 'finished'. It's weird, but not in a morbid way, more like a, "I'm so blessed to have been able to do all this amazing stuff" kind of way.
  - hoprocker 11y ago
    Totally agree. I feel like I didn't really start to think in large strokes until I hit 30. Maybe I'll feel the same once I'm past 50.
- ebbv 11y ago
  > I'm 30 now (from time to time I feel that I've already lived enough and am mostly done) This is the most absurd sentence I've read in weeks. Wow, man. Talk to some people a bit older than you, maybe, and realize that you haven't done anything.
intrasight 11y ago
When I was a young man, a slightly older associate told me that "programming is a trap". What he meant is that if you are relatively smart, you can get a CS degree, get good at it, and go earn a fantastic income right out of school. I heard the words. I understood the words. I agreed with the words. Even now, 30 years later, I keep asking "is this a trap that I choose to remain in?" I still love programming, but it is a trap in that I've not, for a long time, seriously tried doing anything else. So for me it has been 30 years of regular retooling, and likely another 20 years of the same. Unless I decide to open the trap and leave.
- derefr 11y ago
  A trap, compared to what? Is plumbing a trap? Is finance a trap? Is hairstyling a trap?
  - ebbv 11y ago
    Exactly. How is this different from any other profession? Developers can be so myopic. The narcissism in our industry really drives me up the wall. The only other industry that is this way, that I've seen, is the entertainment industry. The denizens of which also seem to suffer from this idea that they are totally unique and none of the plebeian hordes can possibly relate to what they go through.
    - staunch 11y ago
      Seems to fit Maslow's hierarchy of needs pretty well. Being a programmer mostly provides for the physiological needs (food and shelter), but it doesn't necessarily offer much else. It's natural and healthy that people also strive for financial security, belonging, esteem, and self-actualization.
    - malvosenior 11y ago
      I don't think it's the developers being myopic. For the most part, it's management that views development as a young person's game and encourages people to move out of the technical track and into the management track. If companies viewed programming as a long term career, they would put the pay scales in place to treat it as such. It's only a "trap" in the respect that in many (not all) places your pay maxes out as a programmer faster than it does as a manager. I don't think it's most developer's choice for it to be that way.
michaelangerman 11y ago
I am 55 and have been programming computers since 1975 when I was 15 years old. Do the math, I have been programming now for 40 years. Recently, I had a conversation with someone else about this topic and I told them that I have never been so excited about my career, the field of computer science, and most importantly the opportunities that exist today in the field of technology. The excitement surrounding too many topics to list is amazing. I only hope and wish that I am able to stay healthy and continue programming to the day I die.
- ericssmith 11y ago
  I am 53 and started programming in 1977. I feel EXACTLY the same as you.
  - blisterpeanuts 11y ago
    Me 3! 56, first prog job was in '87. Now I'm steadily employed in a dream job, working from home, writing mobile apps and exploring new "IoT" technologies. If this job ends, which all jobs do sooner or later, I'm hoping to starting my own company, finally, and ride that into retirement. But life continues to be an adventure and you never know what lies around the next bend in the road!!! Best of luck to you and to people of all ages in this amazing field.
    - DanielBMarkham 11y ago
      Let's make it an even 4! Just turned 50 yesterday. Wrote my first contract program in 1982 when I was 17. Today I teach teams how to rock-and-roll. I also keep coding, but mostly as a hobby. It has nothing to do with programming -- I simply have too many irons in the fire to do all of the things I love as much as I want to.
      - lisper 11y ago
        I guess I might as well pile on. Turned 50 last year. Got my first paycheck for writing code junior year of high school (writing BASIC code on a Commodore PET!) Working on my fifth startup now.
forrestthewoods 11y ago
I'm 30 and a senior programmer. What should I be doing to ensure I have career options at 50? Is management inevitable with individual contribution primarily reserved for scrappy youngsters?
- ilaksh 11y ago
  By the time you are 50 the artificial superintelligences will be here and in order for anyone to be relevant they will need direct neural implants.
- equalarrow 11y ago
  I think this goes without saying: never stop learning. The people that are resourceful will always find a way. Sometimes this may mean on your own, sometimes with a group. But as long as you can keep learning and just 'do things', you will be light years ahead of those that don't know what to do and look to other people to tell them. From Steve Jobs: "Everything around you that you call life was made up by people that were no smarter than you and you can change it, you can influence it, you can build your own things that other people can use." It's hard sometimes (a lot of the time??) to get over that bit where 'no one is smarter than you'. (I'm not as smart as a Google PhD, am I??..) Once you can and you chart your own course because you are resourceful and confident and someone who can do things, then you won't need to ask the question you asked. :) Good Luck! (I'm still on this journey)
- adevine 11y ago
  I would say there are generally a couple options: 1. Yes, first is straight-forward dev management. 2. I would say another option related to #1 is to go into PRODUCT management, which can then lead to higher level product responsibilities. Someone who is a great product manager who ALSO has a deep technological understanding of implementation options is a real rarity and extremely valuable in today's job market. 3. If you do want to be spending the majority of your time writing code at 50, you need to do everything you can to be a complete expert in some technology. You'll need to change with the times as that technology evolves and pick up new skills, but lots of technologies have lifespans longer than we may think. For example, Java has been around for 20 years already, C++ for over 30, and there is still loads of running technology that uses these languages.
ilaksh 11y ago
Is this the old people thread? I'm 37. I think ageism is a very real problem and I hope people will consider doing more suing even if they don't have to. Some people need to be sued. We need some class actions. Right from the top down of Silicon Valley ageism is rampant and in your face. For example, Sam Altman has publicly made explicitly agist remarks. You kids may not think its a big deal now but give it ten years or so. You will see. Of course in 10-15 years everyone will be in the same boat, being completely ignored by the ASIs.
- equalarrow 11y ago
  "Of course in 10-15 years everyone will be in the same boat, being completely ignored by the ASIs" Exactly, so why give them any credence now?? You only give these people power if you do. That's great that's what Sam Altman thinks; he's "young", but ya know, when he's 50, then what? He'll probably say "oh, that's obviously not how I see things now". Or Zuck. He's ancient to a 19yr old and the only reason he doesn't care about this is because he's rich and runs Facebook. I'm older than you and have been through enough startups and honestly I've dealt with ageism enough to the point that it doesn't even phase me anymore - I've moved past it. But this is because I've made it that way. If people don't want to work with me, np, there are plenty of other opportunities out there. Sure, you might not get hired at the hot startup you just interviewed at. But honestly, if that's the case, who cares? Make your own way, your own rules and then you can decide to hire young or older people or not.
codeonfire 11y ago
Part of the problem, at least in America is one that people don't want to talk about. The industry has globalized greatly over the last couple decades, and many companies hire in areas that have no labor standards. Companies are operating under US labor standards but are hiring people in greater numbers in China and India, some to work in the US. In those places discrimination by age is commonplace. Additionally, there are a large number of foreign managers working in the US who don't understand why they can't just openly discriminate by whatever standard they want. and it makes sense they are confused if you're allowed to discriminate in some cases but not others at the same company. No one regulates US based corporations hiring people in overseas markets for US jobs. The problem is so bad that many resumes that US managers in US companies have sitting on their desk contain things like age, birthplace, country of origin, family members, and even blood type. It blatantly violates US law.
nickpp 11y ago
"The processes I use, investing in good tools and underpinnings, and paying attention to good features of other people's software, makes it easy and quick to try out new ideas. Some of them are really worth it." What processes is he using? What tools and underpinnings that allow him to quickly try out new ideas?
btilly 11y ago
Those who do not know who Douglas Engelbart is should see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos. If you have time, watch the demo to see the state of the art in 1968.
bliti 11y ago
As someone who started programming during the mid 80's: - Everything I've learned may be applied to most languages. Meaning that writing testable code generally translates from BASIC to Javascript. - Programming should always make you feel stupid. Feeling comfortable with something means that you stopped learning new things. - Experience != Knowledge. My biggest issue with some older programmers is that they tend to confuse experience with a language, codebase, or framework with knowledge. The more you learn the less experience you will have. Think about it. You start learning Javascript after years of working with C#. What does that experience work for now? You will surely have an understanding of all the basics. But you have not yet been bitten by the == and === operators. You have to get that new experience. As time passes you will realize that it becomes a game of knowing enough versus being experienced enough. - New technologies are exciting. A lot of people are scared by them. They feel they will be replaced. Their comfy jobs taken away. I'm not scared of this. Change is exciting because it means that I will have the chance to learn something. - New languages might be rehashed versions of older ones. But they contain something different: Somebody else did it. That's reason enough to give it a try. Javascript might not be the most universally praised language, and it doesn't really bring much new to the scene. Its still someones interpretation of how a given problem should be solved. You might not agree with it, but that wont stop people from writing lots of JS code. - Nostalgia is fine. Don't let it get you. Sure, I miss typing BASIC into my old C64, but its no longer relevant. I could pick up demo'ing as a hobby and learn lots of stuff about old chips and memory management tricks. It wont really help me to stay employed much. - All these new devices are scary! I grew up programming for one kind of device. Now I have to take into account tablets, phones, tvs, and whatnot. Embrace it. Mobile is here to stay. It will keep morphing and completely remove desktop computing as we know it. The same way desktop computers removed mainframes and terminals. It is scary. Try and get excited. There is nothing more mind blowing than watching a several months old child tap on a tablet to play a game. /old guy rant
- no1publicenemy 11y ago
  With all due respect, how would mobile devices replace/match the computing experience I have now with my 27" computer? How would be that possible? Good spirit and even better understanding of the Zeitgeist :)
Liquix 11y ago
Anyone interested in Doug Engelbart and his pioneering work at Stanford Research Institute (or computers in general) should check out What the Dormouse Said: How the Sixties Counterculture Shaped the Personal Computer Industry [0]. It goes back much further than Xerox or Apple to tell the tale of Engelbart's visionary Augment project and how his ideas led to the birth of the PC and the internet. If you're not interested in purchasing the book, he gave an incredible hour and a half long demonstration of his system at the Fall Joint Computer Conference. Dubbed The Mother of All Demos [1], he displayed (for the first time in the world) remote video conferencing, hypertext, text editing, and a graphical windowing system. In 1968. Definitely worth a watch. [0] http://www.amazon.com/What-Dormouse-Said-Counterculture-Personal/dp/0143036769 http://www.amazon.com/What-Dormouse-Said-Counterculture-Pers... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos
SonicSoul 11y ago
Interesting, I just hired someone in mid 50's for a programming role. We've seen at least a dozen candidates and he did by far the best on the phone and code test. Now I'm happy to have him on the team. In a industry with a shortage of people that are good I'm surprised anyone can afford to discriminate good candidates based on their age. I think the key is being good and getting along with people. I've interviewed some older guys that were not only bad but were coming with an attitude that they were going to teach everyone here.
shanemhansen 11y ago
One of my mentors is in his 60s (I think). He's an extremely successful architect/consultant who still does plenty of coding. His enthusiasm is what energizes me (just turned 30). I'm not saying that people don't get tired/slower as they get older (I struggle with it), but I don't think it's inevitable.
scarecrowbob 11y ago
I play a lot of music with folks older than me... I'm 37, and the drummer in a blues band I play with is 73 (he's a neat guy- he was in the 13th Floor Elevators). I've played with folks in their late 80s, and most of the folks I play with weekly in a large jazz band are between 50 and 70. I also play bi-weekly with an orchestra with members ranging from 12-82. Maybe I lack the same perspective I lacked when I was younger (and thought that 45 was pretty old), but I absolutely don't see how 60 is old. 80 is old, maybe, but 60 just isn't that old, and I don't mean that in the attitude sense, as with: "The ones that love me say I'm really young, and I appreciate that. I think they mean my thinking is flexible, and I'm excited about the future, like a young person might be."
- AndrewWright 11y ago
  Am I the only one who noticed "he was in 13th Floor Elevators"? Whoa! That's rad! And props on making music the priority, not worrying about age.
  - whyaduck 11y ago
    No you're not. I'm listening to "You're Gonna Miss Me" right now. So is he in touch with Roky?
    - scarecrowbob 11y ago
      They are actually playing next weekend: http://www.austinpsychfest.com/portfolio-item/the-13th-floor-elevators/ http://www.austinpsychfest.com/portfolio-item/the-13th-floor... It's kind of funny... I just thought he was some random (occasionally iffy, somewhat nutty) drummer.
lurkinggrue 11y ago
Well remember: 74 is the new 24, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u5c-Qndqio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u5c-Qndqio (The artist that did that music video is 74)
- mortehu 11y ago
  Note that he did the music, not the video itself, which is taken from the demo "Spin"[1] by Andromeda Software Development. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFqMnVDIuvc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFqMnVDIuvc
jakejake 11y ago
I read an article recently that said something to the effect that most people stop listening to new music at age 33. I kinda feel the same about programming. There are a lot of people still doing it, but not as many that are truly excited about learning new things. When we bring on young people they have a ton of energy and are excited to try every new thing which, don't get me wrong, is awesome. But they do occasionally criticize me for moving too cautiously, even though I am plenty excited about trying new things. I always think to myself, call me back in about 15 years and we'll see whether you evolve into the rockstar that you envision yourself to be, or else if you stagnate, burn out, move onto something else, etc. I always hope they do become the rockstar.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  I am 45 and I almost only listen to new music. I have almost a 1000 CDs from the 90s and early 00s (all ripped to FLAC), but I find myself listening to new music because there is so much fantastic new music out there and it is so easy to access. For a music fan it really is the golden age (not so much for the musicians). As for learning new programming skills I still enjoy it, but I think this is because for me languages/frameworks/algorithms are just tools. The real fun is in using the right tool to solve a complex problem.
  - jakejake 11y ago
    Same here. I basically get bored with most music fairly quickly so I'm always looking for something new. Most of my high-school friends are still listening to the same music from the 80's and 90's though!
- weavie 11y ago
  I'm 41. Started learning Lisp at 40. Never been more excited about programming!
neurocis 11y ago
Not that I condone treachery, but growing up my father used to have a famous line "Old age and treachery will beat out youth and enthusiasm any day". And although he wasn't a programmer, but rather an investigative thinker, his subtle manner of obtaining voluntary compliance seemed to win the day. Whilst not treachery in the blatant sense, there was allot to learn from this wisdom which is only gained from life experience. Would I have hired Doug, probably, but I think maybe I would have been better self-served being HIRED by Doug. My age - 43 and irrelevant IMO.
biturd 11y ago
I was looking at some of the code for one of his projects that is a little node http server. I don't really know JS or node at all, but can someone explain this to me: function secondsSince (when) { var now = new Date (); when = new Date (when); return ((now - when) / 1000); } I'm assuming now returns seconds since some fixed point in time ( epoch ) when when someone passes in the 'when' argument, it must already be formatted a certain way, or node/js somehow managed to figure out the input? How would it deal with 5/8/2015 vs 8/5/2015 Or this is just a very case specific function and the input is already sanitized in a way that is prepared for this function? github is here: https://github.com/scripting/pagepark/blob/master/lib/utils.js https://github.com/scripting/pagepark/blob/master/lib/utils....
- btouellette 11y ago
  It'll work with any Javascript Date object (passing a Date to the Date constructor just gets you a new object with the same value) or any other value that works in the Date constructor: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Date https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...
- mike 11y ago
  see the Mozilla JavaScript docs here: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Date https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe... a Date can be constructed with either a number of milliseconds since the epoch or a string in a format recognised by the Date.parse() method (IETF-compliant RFC 2822 timestamps and also a version of ISO8601)
- onaclov2000 11y ago
  I'm not 100% sure what he's doing here, however I know when I have used new Date().getTime() it returns something like milliseconds, and thus I had to divide by 1000 to result in seconds, so it appears that he's subtracting milliseconds and getting seconds after the division by 1000. Typically I believe new Date() is current time/date (http://www.w3schools.com/js/tryit.asp?filename=tryjs_date_new http://www.w3schools.com/js/tryit.asp?filename=tryjs_date_ne...) in my experience. As far as your question how to deal with 5/8/2015, and 8/5/2015, to be honest I don't know that answer.
valine 11y ago
I'm 18 years old and I just got my first significant programming job building android applications for a medical device company. I must say its inspiring to read something like this. I've heard stories from mentors and professors about what it takes to stay relevent in the field computer science. It's odd to think that the technologies I've devoted my time and energy could be all but useless by the time I turn 30. Maybe it's wrong, but I dream of a post Moore's Law era where development tools can finally mature and the best programmers are the ones with 40 years of experience.
Decade 11y ago
So far, it looks like nobody is commenting on Dave Winer’s own work. Everybody has been influenced by Engelbart, but nobody uses NLS. Merely the ideas went into all the computers that we use today. Engelbart was so frustrated because he had more great ideas, but they were difficult to develop and he couldn’t get funding. Winer specifically mentions Userland Frontier. It was a useful tool, which I’m sure helped with the development of RSS, just as NeXT Project Builder helped with the development of WWW. The problem with the Engelbart comparison is that there are countless other development environments, many of them free and/or not in a dialect of C and/or available via git, while the Mother of All Demos was unique. I think the open-sourcing of Frontier was too little, too late. Frontier is an impressive achievement, but I don’t see why it should be interesting to me.
- dotandimet 11y ago
  I've been following Dave for a long while, and I find he excels at leading you towards interesting ideas, starting conversations, discovering and inspiring interesting work by others, experimenting with cool stuff, occasionally just inventing influential technologies. Blogging, RSS, MP3 sharing, podcasting, HTML UIs, sites as apps, REST APIs/Web RPC... I used Frontier in 1998 as a static site generator, and later as an RSS reader and a blogging tool. Frontier was a very interesting technology, and it was probably part of what made Dave so productive. Imagine a single program that is a web server and a database, a system scripting tool, a scheduler (like cron or Jenkins), an editor and an outliner and a scripting language runtime and an IDE... That's what Frontier was, and building each part of it leveraged the rest, accreting functionality to itself as it grew like coral. Frontier's integrated approach went against the prevailing attitude in software development, that of UNIX, Open Source and the Web, of worse-is-better, loosely-coupled, modular and specialized tools. But by embracing the web's open protocols and loosely-specified text-based APIs, Dave got more than a decade of remarkably productive extra mileage out of it.
taurath 11y ago
You wonder why people aren't curious?? I'm 28 and I would pay money to spend a day talking about coding with you - I'm "senior level" at my company but that just means I don't have very many people around to mentor me. If you're near the Seattle area I'd love to buy you coffee.
chrisbennet 11y ago
I'm only 35 (in hex, ha, ha!) and I've been programming professionally since 1985 when the earth's crust was still cooling. It's still a blast.
datashovel 11y ago
I can imagine a time in my distant future where I will feel unappreciated and/or unable to keep up with technology the way I can today (though admittedly even today it's not an easy task given the trajectory. I'm pretty certain we're on an exponential curve). What is the gift that will keep on giving? Write about what you know. Write about your experiences and insights. Even thousands of years from now people may come across your work and given the advances they will be living amongst will almost certainly be interested in what you had to say.
lukego 11y ago
Recently I saw a conference presentation from an 80 year old who had just created a new CPU on an FPGA and ported a graphical operating system onto it :-) https://twitter.com/lukego/status/436558489910255616 https://twitter.com/lukego/status/436558489910255616
porker 11y ago
This is a great thread. What I have appreciated most is seeing the long-term vision that older programmers have - thinking in terms of change over decades, not years. Working in the web industry, the second-hardest thing I find (after pace of change/fascination with "New! Shiny!") is the vision of people can be measured in months to 3-4 years. Applications are not built with the thought they will be running in a decade; it's assumed they'll be rewritten in New Language X with New Architecture Y long before that. To older programmers: if you work in the web field, how do you handle/deal with this?
lrobb 11y ago
The more interesting post was the link to Phil G's blog post about the MIT reunion: "The medical doctor was at the peak of his career and in no danger of being fired. The university professor had the security of tenure and was looking forward to a defined benefit pension starting six years from now. The corporate attorney was finishing up a prosperous career. The engineers who’d chosen to work in industry, however, were a varied lot. A woman who’d taken a job at a defense contractor was still there, 30 years later. The super-wizard Lisp Machine programmer was now in a senior technical, but non-supervisory role, at a multi-billion dollar dotcom (not necessarily getting paid more than a competent 30-year-old, however). About half of the engineers, however, talked about being pushed into a financially uncomfortable early retirement and/or not being able to find work."

505 points by nicolethenerd 11y ago

bonif 11y ago

"We Make Shitty Software... With Bugs!", [0] best slogan ever [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Videotext https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Videotext

jgrahamc 11y ago

"Unlike Engelbart, I have re-tooled. I now work in JavaScript in the browser and on the server. I had to walk away from the codebase that I loved. I understood that the price of relevance is to give up fighting at some point and settle for a partial victory. I think I was right in the development environment I created. But right doesn't mean the world uses what you created." Yep. That's the key to staying relevant: change with the times.

bentcorner 11y ago
I think I'm coming to grasps with this too. I'm over 30 and have spent most of my life building large desktop applications in C/C++. I want to eventually work remote, and looking at what's out there, there are very few opportunities with someone with my skillset. It's all modern frameworks and languages. So, I'm spending some of my own time learning some of this stuff.
- _yosefk 11y ago
  Embedded programming is much more stable wrt languages and (often non-existent) frameworks. Nice for C/C++ devs.
  - sgt101 11y ago
    I worked as a C and then C++ dev for a few years and then I started a Ph.D writing a C++ code base. I remember the day that I got java 0.7 running on my spark 20. I would never touch the STL again, never have to worry about malloc and #def overwrites. No more gdb. There's not much nice for c/c++ devs, pity them.
    - tosseraccount 11y ago
      How many java programs are running your desktop now? How many C/C++ programs?
  - housel 11y ago
    Embedded programming is also harder to do remotely due to needing hands-on access to development hardware, frequent access to hardware engineers, expensive test equipment, and so forth.
  - vonmoltke 11y ago
    It's also a silo that can be hard to get out of and is very hard to get into, because all you do is C or C++ work and everyone wants C or C++ experts for their jobs.
curun1r 11y ago
This. I see too many older developers who complain about ageism, but what's really going on is that they're essentially the same developer they were 2-3 years into their career. If you've been working in the industry for over 20 years, employers can and should expect that you've made the most of it. Those developers have very few problems with ageism. It's the ones that have become comfortable and stagnated that have trouble.
- hoprocker 11y ago
  Who was it that said, "It's not 10 years worth of experience, it's the same year repeated 10 times"?
  - spacemanmatt 11y ago
    Someone with 10 years of experience, unable to recognize the nuances one picks up by repeating those 10 years of experience with 10 years of context to make better sense of it.
    - hoprocker 11y ago
      Excellent point; that 10 years can make you a specialist.
- scrozier 11y ago
  I am 57 and quite current. I have launched several startups and kept fresh constantly. My current client has me doing lots of leading edge stuff that some of their younger devs couldn't do. And yet I do feel the ageism. I understand it and I'm not angry about it, but it's real, nonetheless. It's not a good feeling.
  - 31reasons 11y ago
    What kind of ageism have you experienced ? Can you describe some experiences ?
- rayiner 11y ago
ams6110 11y ago
For me, the thing that gets a bit discouraging at times is the feeling of riding a slow-motion merry-go-round. Every 10 years or so you see the same ideas start to come around again, only with some new paint and landscaping. I have found myself more than once thinking that learning about some new trendy buzzword is just ultimately a waste of time, since I will barely have mastered it before it's been replaced by the next new/old thing. On the other hand, it gets easier since none of the concepts are new anymore, and I tell myself, "hey, if you want to pay me to build a client-server app in the browser like it was 1995 (substitute Powerbuilder for Firefox/Chrome), great, happy to take your money."
- timmy-turner 11y ago
  And you hopefully have learnt from the mistakes Powerbuilder did back in '95, not making them again. So in theory you're ahead of the crowd of today. Though that means that you have acknowledge that things were not all that great back then as you remember - which seems to get harder as one grows older.
- derefr 11y ago
  I see the same thing, but feel much more optimistic about it: it's not, in my mind, that tech is effectively fashion, but rather that there are "futurist" ideas that tech keeps trying and which keep not getting adoption, because it's not their time yet—the state of the art isn't there to make the experience for the average consumer (or the average developer) justify the costs. An example of what I mean: the Apple Newton, and then 10 years later the Palm Pilot, and then 10 years later Windows CE and flip-phones supporting J2ME, and then 10 years later touchscreen phones and tablets. There have been four generations of "mobile app developers", but only the latest generation has seen any traction for their apps. This time the idea stuck; it will stay around, rather than coming around again. If something like Paypal's prototype service (beaming money from one Palm Pilot to another) were set in this "revolution" of mobile instead of that one, it would be much more successful.
  - smitherfield 11y ago
    Not to be that guy, but Apple Newton: 1993 Palm Pilot: 1997 Smartphones: ~2002 iPhone: 2007 Android: 2008 iPad: 2010
vezzy-fnord 11y ago
Generally sound, but there does seem to be a certain breed of vanguard who lives off being heterodox with regards to the computing mainstream, yet functions just fine and likely harbors plenty of insights. Much of the Go team lived full time on Plan 9 at one point or another, and it's not like all of them were Rob Pike or Ken Thompson. There is value in keeping up with trends, but on the flip side there is value in sticking with sound ideas, even if they are not necessarily attractive in the labor market, and learn enough to be employable or self-sustainable in some regard. I would say server-side JS might not necessarily be a great long-term prospect, at least in part due to limitations with SMP and unwieldy concurrency models. Even if it persists, the value of knowing might be more of a labor necessity than any inherent utility. Because programming operates on lots of trends and conjecture, knowing which ones not to waste time on is a much more valuable skill than jumping to stay "relevant".
wwweston 11y ago
Something I've found as I've gotten older, though, is that I have a stronger and stronger sense of wasted time every time I have to learn a new way of doing the same thing. Particularly if the new way involves a bleeding edge leaky abstraction. Because every hour I spend investing in a new stack and its details is an hour I can't spend thinking about product-level details, can't spend learning more learning about organizational-level matters, can't spend on improving more timeless investments like statistics, math, and soft/interpersonal skills. Not to mention fun things like music and travel and enjoying the company of people you like. It wouldn't be so bad if most of the new shiny things in the software world were an order of magnitude better. But saying that 1/4 new frameworks or even languages present tha kind of power/productivity jump would be optimistic.
- fsk 11y ago
  That is one of my biggest concerns. A lot of the new tools are just different, not better. But you're expected to know all of them. It's also hard to predict what will be popular five years from now. I thought that using Javascript on the server was pants-on-head retarded, but it's very popular, with no signs of passing on.
  - georgemcbay 11y ago
    " I thought that using Javascript on the server was pants-on-head retarded, but it's very popular" Well, there's no law against things being both terrible and popular. It is quite common.
    - fsk 11y ago
      What does it say about software as a serious career, if tools that are awful are popular and widely used?

guard-of-terra 11y ago

I'm 30 now (from time to time I feel that I've already lived enough and am mostly done), the idea of expecting at least 30 productive years ahead of me is intriguing.

lamuerteflaca 11y ago
What have you done that makes you feel satisfied with your life? Just curious. I'm 37 and feel like I'm just getting started. Keep in mind that I have wasted very little time. Always working on some project here or there. Right now I'm planning my next fourty years. So it really makes me wonder how you can feel you are done.
- guard-of-terra 11y ago
  Maybe it is exactly because I've "wasted" a lot of time on leisure activities so I have quite some fond memories. Did some nice things professionally, too.
  - Revex 11y ago
    I am right there with you. I am a little over half way through my 30th year of life. I have "wasted" a lot by having a ton of fun and enjoying myself, while also getting plenty done professionally. I am excited about the future, and also intrigued with this concept of another 30-50 years of productivity, but like you, sometimes I can accept a fate of being 'finished'. It's weird, but not in a morbid way, more like a, "I'm so blessed to have been able to do all this amazing stuff" kind of way.
- hoprocker 11y ago
  Totally agree. I feel like I didn't really start to think in large strokes until I hit 30. Maybe I'll feel the same once I'm past 50.
ebbv 11y ago
> I'm 30 now (from time to time I feel that I've already lived enough and am mostly done) This is the most absurd sentence I've read in weeks. Wow, man. Talk to some people a bit older than you, maybe, and realize that you haven't done anything.

intrasight 11y ago

When I was a young man, a slightly older associate told me that "programming is a trap". What he meant is that if you are relatively smart, you can get a CS degree, get good at it, and go earn a fantastic income right out of school. I heard the words. I understood the words. I agreed with the words. Even now, 30 years later, I keep asking "is this a trap that I choose to remain in?" I still love programming, but it is a trap in that I've not, for a long time, seriously tried doing anything else. So for me it has been 30 years of regular retooling, and likely another 20 years of the same. Unless I decide to open the trap and leave.

derefr 11y ago
A trap, compared to what? Is plumbing a trap? Is finance a trap? Is hairstyling a trap?
- ebbv 11y ago
  Exactly. How is this different from any other profession? Developers can be so myopic. The narcissism in our industry really drives me up the wall. The only other industry that is this way, that I've seen, is the entertainment industry. The denizens of which also seem to suffer from this idea that they are totally unique and none of the plebeian hordes can possibly relate to what they go through.
  - staunch 11y ago
    Seems to fit Maslow's hierarchy of needs pretty well. Being a programmer mostly provides for the physiological needs (food and shelter), but it doesn't necessarily offer much else. It's natural and healthy that people also strive for financial security, belonging, esteem, and self-actualization.
  - malvosenior 11y ago
    I don't think it's the developers being myopic. For the most part, it's management that views development as a young person's game and encourages people to move out of the technical track and into the management track. If companies viewed programming as a long term career, they would put the pay scales in place to treat it as such. It's only a "trap" in the respect that in many (not all) places your pay maxes out as a programmer faster than it does as a manager. I don't think it's most developer's choice for it to be that way.

michaelangerman 11y ago

I am 55 and have been programming computers since 1975 when I was 15 years old. Do the math, I have been programming now for 40 years. Recently, I had a conversation with someone else about this topic and I told them that I have never been so excited about my career, the field of computer science, and most importantly the opportunities that exist today in the field of technology. The excitement surrounding too many topics to list is amazing. I only hope and wish that I am able to stay healthy and continue programming to the day I die.

ericssmith 11y ago
I am 53 and started programming in 1977. I feel EXACTLY the same as you.
- blisterpeanuts 11y ago
  Me 3! 56, first prog job was in '87. Now I'm steadily employed in a dream job, working from home, writing mobile apps and exploring new "IoT" technologies. If this job ends, which all jobs do sooner or later, I'm hoping to starting my own company, finally, and ride that into retirement. But life continues to be an adventure and you never know what lies around the next bend in the road!!! Best of luck to you and to people of all ages in this amazing field.
  - DanielBMarkham 11y ago
    Let's make it an even 4! Just turned 50 yesterday. Wrote my first contract program in 1982 when I was 17. Today I teach teams how to rock-and-roll. I also keep coding, but mostly as a hobby. It has nothing to do with programming -- I simply have too many irons in the fire to do all of the things I love as much as I want to.
    - lisper 11y ago
      I guess I might as well pile on. Turned 50 last year. Got my first paycheck for writing code junior year of high school (writing BASIC code on a Commodore PET!) Working on my fifth startup now.

forrestthewoods 11y ago

I'm 30 and a senior programmer. What should I be doing to ensure I have career options at 50? Is management inevitable with individual contribution primarily reserved for scrappy youngsters?

ilaksh 11y ago
By the time you are 50 the artificial superintelligences will be here and in order for anyone to be relevant they will need direct neural implants.
equalarrow 11y ago
I think this goes without saying: never stop learning. The people that are resourceful will always find a way. Sometimes this may mean on your own, sometimes with a group. But as long as you can keep learning and just 'do things', you will be light years ahead of those that don't know what to do and look to other people to tell them. From Steve Jobs: "Everything around you that you call life was made up by people that were no smarter than you and you can change it, you can influence it, you can build your own things that other people can use." It's hard sometimes (a lot of the time??) to get over that bit where 'no one is smarter than you'. (I'm not as smart as a Google PhD, am I??..) Once you can and you chart your own course because you are resourceful and confident and someone who can do things, then you won't need to ask the question you asked. :) Good Luck! (I'm still on this journey)
adevine 11y ago
I would say there are generally a couple options: 1. Yes, first is straight-forward dev management. 2. I would say another option related to #1 is to go into PRODUCT management, which can then lead to higher level product responsibilities. Someone who is a great product manager who ALSO has a deep technological understanding of implementation options is a real rarity and extremely valuable in today's job market. 3. If you do want to be spending the majority of your time writing code at 50, you need to do everything you can to be a complete expert in some technology. You'll need to change with the times as that technology evolves and pick up new skills, but lots of technologies have lifespans longer than we may think. For example, Java has been around for 20 years already, C++ for over 30, and there is still loads of running technology that uses these languages.

ilaksh 11y ago

Is this the old people thread? I'm 37. I think ageism is a very real problem and I hope people will consider doing more suing even if they don't have to. Some people need to be sued. We need some class actions. Right from the top down of Silicon Valley ageism is rampant and in your face. For example, Sam Altman has publicly made explicitly agist remarks. You kids may not think its a big deal now but give it ten years or so. You will see. Of course in 10-15 years everyone will be in the same boat, being completely ignored by the ASIs.

equalarrow 11y ago
"Of course in 10-15 years everyone will be in the same boat, being completely ignored by the ASIs" Exactly, so why give them any credence now?? You only give these people power if you do. That's great that's what Sam Altman thinks; he's "young", but ya know, when he's 50, then what? He'll probably say "oh, that's obviously not how I see things now". Or Zuck. He's ancient to a 19yr old and the only reason he doesn't care about this is because he's rich and runs Facebook. I'm older than you and have been through enough startups and honestly I've dealt with ageism enough to the point that it doesn't even phase me anymore - I've moved past it. But this is because I've made it that way. If people don't want to work with me, np, there are plenty of other opportunities out there. Sure, you might not get hired at the hot startup you just interviewed at. But honestly, if that's the case, who cares? Make your own way, your own rules and then you can decide to hire young or older people or not.

codeonfire 11y ago

Part of the problem, at least in America is one that people don't want to talk about. The industry has globalized greatly over the last couple decades, and many companies hire in areas that have no labor standards. Companies are operating under US labor standards but are hiring people in greater numbers in China and India, some to work in the US. In those places discrimination by age is commonplace. Additionally, there are a large number of foreign managers working in the US who don't understand why they can't just openly discriminate by whatever standard they want. and it makes sense they are confused if you're allowed to discriminate in some cases but not others at the same company. No one regulates US based corporations hiring people in overseas markets for US jobs. The problem is so bad that many resumes that US managers in US companies have sitting on their desk contain things like age, birthplace, country of origin, family members, and even blood type. It blatantly violates US law.

nickpp 11y ago

"The processes I use, investing in good tools and underpinnings, and paying attention to good features of other people's software, makes it easy and quick to try out new ideas. Some of them are really worth it." What processes is he using? What tools and underpinnings that allow him to quickly try out new ideas?

btilly 11y ago

Those who do not know who Douglas Engelbart is should see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos. If you have time, watch the demo to see the state of the art in 1968.

bliti 11y ago

As someone who started programming during the mid 80's: - Everything I've learned may be applied to most languages. Meaning that writing testable code generally translates from BASIC to Javascript. - Programming should always make you feel stupid. Feeling comfortable with something means that you stopped learning new things. - Experience != Knowledge. My biggest issue with some older programmers is that they tend to confuse experience with a language, codebase, or framework with knowledge. The more you learn the less experience you will have. Think about it. You start learning Javascript after years of working with C#. What does that experience work for now? You will surely have an understanding of all the basics. But you have not yet been bitten by the == and === operators. You have to get that new experience. As time passes you will realize that it becomes a game of knowing enough versus being experienced enough. - New technologies are exciting. A lot of people are scared by them. They feel they will be replaced. Their comfy jobs taken away. I'm not scared of this. Change is exciting because it means that I will have the chance to learn something. - New languages might be rehashed versions of older ones. But they contain something different: Somebody else did it. That's reason enough to give it a try. Javascript might not be the most universally praised language, and it doesn't really bring much new to the scene. Its still someones interpretation of how a given problem should be solved. You might not agree with it, but that wont stop people from writing lots of JS code. - Nostalgia is fine. Don't let it get you. Sure, I miss typing BASIC into my old C64, but its no longer relevant. I could pick up demo'ing as a hobby and learn lots of stuff about old chips and memory management tricks. It wont really help me to stay employed much. - All these new devices are scary! I grew up programming for one kind of device. Now I have to take into account tablets, phones, tvs, and whatnot. Embrace it. Mobile is here to stay. It will keep morphing and completely remove desktop computing as we know it. The same way desktop computers removed mainframes and terminals. It is scary. Try and get excited. There is nothing more mind blowing than watching a several months old child tap on a tablet to play a game. /old guy rant

no1publicenemy 11y ago
With all due respect, how would mobile devices replace/match the computing experience I have now with my 27" computer? How would be that possible? Good spirit and even better understanding of the Zeitgeist :)

Liquix 11y ago

Anyone interested in Doug Engelbart and his pioneering work at Stanford Research Institute (or computers in general) should check out What the Dormouse Said: How the Sixties Counterculture Shaped the Personal Computer Industry [0]. It goes back much further than Xerox or Apple to tell the tale of Engelbart's visionary Augment project and how his ideas led to the birth of the PC and the internet. If you're not interested in purchasing the book, he gave an incredible hour and a half long demonstration of his system at the Fall Joint Computer Conference. Dubbed The Mother of All Demos [1], he displayed (for the first time in the world) remote video conferencing, hypertext, text editing, and a graphical windowing system. In 1968. Definitely worth a watch. [0] http://www.amazon.com/What-Dormouse-Said-Counterculture-Personal/dp/0143036769 http://www.amazon.com/What-Dormouse-Said-Counterculture-Pers... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos

SonicSoul 11y ago

Interesting, I just hired someone in mid 50's for a programming role. We've seen at least a dozen candidates and he did by far the best on the phone and code test. Now I'm happy to have him on the team. In a industry with a shortage of people that are good I'm surprised anyone can afford to discriminate good candidates based on their age. I think the key is being good and getting along with people. I've interviewed some older guys that were not only bad but were coming with an attitude that they were going to teach everyone here.

shanemhansen 11y ago

One of my mentors is in his 60s (I think). He's an extremely successful architect/consultant who still does plenty of coding. His enthusiasm is what energizes me (just turned 30). I'm not saying that people don't get tired/slower as they get older (I struggle with it), but I don't think it's inevitable.

scarecrowbob 11y ago

I play a lot of music with folks older than me... I'm 37, and the drummer in a blues band I play with is 73 (he's a neat guy- he was in the 13th Floor Elevators). I've played with folks in their late 80s, and most of the folks I play with weekly in a large jazz band are between 50 and 70. I also play bi-weekly with an orchestra with members ranging from 12-82. Maybe I lack the same perspective I lacked when I was younger (and thought that 45 was pretty old), but I absolutely don't see how 60 is old. 80 is old, maybe, but 60 just isn't that old, and I don't mean that in the attitude sense, as with: "The ones that love me say I'm really young, and I appreciate that. I think they mean my thinking is flexible, and I'm excited about the future, like a young person might be."

AndrewWright 11y ago
Am I the only one who noticed "he was in 13th Floor Elevators"? Whoa! That's rad! And props on making music the priority, not worrying about age.
- whyaduck 11y ago
  No you're not. I'm listening to "You're Gonna Miss Me" right now. So is he in touch with Roky?
  - scarecrowbob 11y ago
    They are actually playing next weekend: http://www.austinpsychfest.com/portfolio-item/the-13th-floor-elevators/ http://www.austinpsychfest.com/portfolio-item/the-13th-floor... It's kind of funny... I just thought he was some random (occasionally iffy, somewhat nutty) drummer.

lurkinggrue 11y ago

Well remember: 74 is the new 24, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u5c-Qndqio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u5c-Qndqio (The artist that did that music video is 74)

mortehu 11y ago
Note that he did the music, not the video itself, which is taken from the demo "Spin"[1] by Andromeda Software Development. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFqMnVDIuvc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFqMnVDIuvc

jakejake 11y ago

I read an article recently that said something to the effect that most people stop listening to new music at age 33. I kinda feel the same about programming. There are a lot of people still doing it, but not as many that are truly excited about learning new things. When we bring on young people they have a ton of energy and are excited to try every new thing which, don't get me wrong, is awesome. But they do occasionally criticize me for moving too cautiously, even though I am plenty excited about trying new things. I always think to myself, call me back in about 15 years and we'll see whether you evolve into the rockstar that you envision yourself to be, or else if you stagnate, burn out, move onto something else, etc. I always hope they do become the rockstar.

danieltillett 11y ago
I am 45 and I almost only listen to new music. I have almost a 1000 CDs from the 90s and early 00s (all ripped to FLAC), but I find myself listening to new music because there is so much fantastic new music out there and it is so easy to access. For a music fan it really is the golden age (not so much for the musicians). As for learning new programming skills I still enjoy it, but I think this is because for me languages/frameworks/algorithms are just tools. The real fun is in using the right tool to solve a complex problem.
- jakejake 11y ago
  Same here. I basically get bored with most music fairly quickly so I'm always looking for something new. Most of my high-school friends are still listening to the same music from the 80's and 90's though!
weavie 11y ago
I'm 41. Started learning Lisp at 40. Never been more excited about programming!

neurocis 11y ago

Not that I condone treachery, but growing up my father used to have a famous line "Old age and treachery will beat out youth and enthusiasm any day". And although he wasn't a programmer, but rather an investigative thinker, his subtle manner of obtaining voluntary compliance seemed to win the day. Whilst not treachery in the blatant sense, there was allot to learn from this wisdom which is only gained from life experience. Would I have hired Doug, probably, but I think maybe I would have been better self-served being HIRED by Doug. My age - 43 and irrelevant IMO.

biturd 11y ago

I was looking at some of the code for one of his projects that is a little node http server. I don't really know JS or node at all, but can someone explain this to me: function secondsSince (when) { var now = new Date (); when = new Date (when); return ((now - when) / 1000); } I'm assuming now returns seconds since some fixed point in time ( epoch ) when when someone passes in the 'when' argument, it must already be formatted a certain way, or node/js somehow managed to figure out the input? How would it deal with 5/8/2015 vs 8/5/2015 Or this is just a very case specific function and the input is already sanitized in a way that is prepared for this function? github is here: https://github.com/scripting/pagepark/blob/master/lib/utils.js https://github.com/scripting/pagepark/blob/master/lib/utils....

btouellette 11y ago
It'll work with any Javascript Date object (passing a Date to the Date constructor just gets you a new object with the same value) or any other value that works in the Date constructor: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Date https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...
mike 11y ago
see the Mozilla JavaScript docs here: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Date https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe... a Date can be constructed with either a number of milliseconds since the epoch or a string in a format recognised by the Date.parse() method (IETF-compliant RFC 2822 timestamps and also a version of ISO8601)
onaclov2000 11y ago
I'm not 100% sure what he's doing here, however I know when I have used new Date().getTime() it returns something like milliseconds, and thus I had to divide by 1000 to result in seconds, so it appears that he's subtracting milliseconds and getting seconds after the division by 1000. Typically I believe new Date() is current time/date (http://www.w3schools.com/js/tryit.asp?filename=tryjs_date_new http://www.w3schools.com/js/tryit.asp?filename=tryjs_date_ne...) in my experience. As far as your question how to deal with 5/8/2015, and 8/5/2015, to be honest I don't know that answer.

valine 11y ago

I'm 18 years old and I just got my first significant programming job building android applications for a medical device company. I must say its inspiring to read something like this. I've heard stories from mentors and professors about what it takes to stay relevent in the field computer science. It's odd to think that the technologies I've devoted my time and energy could be all but useless by the time I turn 30. Maybe it's wrong, but I dream of a post Moore's Law era where development tools can finally mature and the best programmers are the ones with 40 years of experience.

Decade 11y ago

So far, it looks like nobody is commenting on Dave Winer’s own work. Everybody has been influenced by Engelbart, but nobody uses NLS. Merely the ideas went into all the computers that we use today. Engelbart was so frustrated because he had more great ideas, but they were difficult to develop and he couldn’t get funding. Winer specifically mentions Userland Frontier. It was a useful tool, which I’m sure helped with the development of RSS, just as NeXT Project Builder helped with the development of WWW. The problem with the Engelbart comparison is that there are countless other development environments, many of them free and/or not in a dialect of C and/or available via git, while the Mother of All Demos was unique. I think the open-sourcing of Frontier was too little, too late. Frontier is an impressive achievement, but I don’t see why it should be interesting to me.

dotandimet 11y ago
I've been following Dave for a long while, and I find he excels at leading you towards interesting ideas, starting conversations, discovering and inspiring interesting work by others, experimenting with cool stuff, occasionally just inventing influential technologies. Blogging, RSS, MP3 sharing, podcasting, HTML UIs, sites as apps, REST APIs/Web RPC... I used Frontier in 1998 as a static site generator, and later as an RSS reader and a blogging tool. Frontier was a very interesting technology, and it was probably part of what made Dave so productive. Imagine a single program that is a web server and a database, a system scripting tool, a scheduler (like cron or Jenkins), an editor and an outliner and a scripting language runtime and an IDE... That's what Frontier was, and building each part of it leveraged the rest, accreting functionality to itself as it grew like coral. Frontier's integrated approach went against the prevailing attitude in software development, that of UNIX, Open Source and the Web, of worse-is-better, loosely-coupled, modular and specialized tools. But by embracing the web's open protocols and loosely-specified text-based APIs, Dave got more than a decade of remarkably productive extra mileage out of it.

taurath 11y ago

You wonder why people aren't curious?? I'm 28 and I would pay money to spend a day talking about coding with you - I'm "senior level" at my company but that just means I don't have very many people around to mentor me. If you're near the Seattle area I'd love to buy you coffee.

chrisbennet 11y ago

I'm only 35 (in hex, ha, ha!) and I've been programming professionally since 1985 when the earth's crust was still cooling. It's still a blast.

datashovel 11y ago

I can imagine a time in my distant future where I will feel unappreciated and/or unable to keep up with technology the way I can today (though admittedly even today it's not an easy task given the trajectory. I'm pretty certain we're on an exponential curve). What is the gift that will keep on giving? Write about what you know. Write about your experiences and insights. Even thousands of years from now people may come across your work and given the advances they will be living amongst will almost certainly be interested in what you had to say.

lukego 11y ago

Recently I saw a conference presentation from an 80 year old who had just created a new CPU on an FPGA and ported a graphical operating system onto it :-) https://twitter.com/lukego/status/436558489910255616 https://twitter.com/lukego/status/436558489910255616

porker 11y ago

This is a great thread. What I have appreciated most is seeing the long-term vision that older programmers have - thinking in terms of change over decades, not years. Working in the web industry, the second-hardest thing I find (after pace of change/fascination with "New! Shiny!") is the vision of people can be measured in months to 3-4 years. Applications are not built with the thought they will be running in a decade; it's assumed they'll be rewritten in New Language X with New Architecture Y long before that. To older programmers: if you work in the web field, how do you handle/deal with this?

lrobb 11y ago

The more interesting post was the link to Phil G's blog post about the MIT reunion: "The medical doctor was at the peak of his career and in no danger of being fired. The university professor had the security of tenure and was looking forward to a defined benefit pension starting six years from now. The corporate attorney was finishing up a prosperous career. The engineers who’d chosen to work in industry, however, were a varied lot. A woman who’d taken a job at a defense contractor was still there, 30 years later. The super-wizard Lisp Machine programmer was now in a senior technical, but non-supervisory role, at a multi-billion dollar dotcom (not necessarily getting paid more than a competent 30-year-old, however). About half of the engineers, however, talked about being pushed into a financially uncomfortable early retirement and/or not being able to find work."