9 ms·

Radium – The Music Editor

116 points by buovjaga 11y ago

z5h 11y ago
Looks very cool. I'll definitely give it a try. As a huge fan of Sunvox, Radium looks quite appealing.
pen2l 11y ago
Sorry for silly question, but: is "Radium" a DAW? If not, how does it compare -- what can it do that a DAW can't, and what can't it do that a DAW can
- Gracana 11y ago
  It seems pretty tracker-like, with columns for instruments and rows containing notes, but what makes it different is the focus on graphical editing and automation. The node editor thing on the right for connecting effects looks pretty cool, too.
- yellowapple 11y ago
  It looks like it is indeed a DAW (supports VST and LADSPA, which is a tell-tale sign), but with a lot more/better features and a pretty visible tracker heritage.
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  "DAW" is a ridiculously overloaded term. It contains such diverse tools as: REAPER and Ardour and ProTools - Multitrack recording tools, used for recording live performances, with some basic MIDI capabilities built up over the years. Cubase and Logic - MIDI sequencers, with multitrack capabilities accreted over many years to the point where multitrack recording (in the same contexts as the above category) is not unheard of, though the UI focus is different. Fruity Loops and Ableton Live - Loop composition tools (for lack of a better description). Both are designed around loops as the basic building block of sound. While they have limited recording and MIDI capabilities, one likely wouldn't use FL or Ableton to make a symphonic soundtrack for a film, and certainly wouldn't use either to record a full band of performing musicians. Renoise and apparently Radium - Trackers for the current century. These evolved out of the old Soundtracker style music programs (including Protracker, MED, etc. on the Amiga and then onto FT and Impulse Tracker on early PCs). They've acquired most of the functionality one expects from sequencers and loop based music programs, but don't usually have any multi-track recording facilities. All are called DAWs by their developers and users, and yet how one uses them is pretty different. I pretty regularly use Ardour and REAPER for multitrack recording. And, I occasionally use Fruity Loops and LMMS for tinkering with remixes. And, I occasionally use Renoise for making electronic music. I'd like it if there were separate terms for each of these concepts, as it would give folks a good language for talking about what each of these types of tools do. It would also rule out a lot of the stupid confrontational crap that often comes up ("Your program sucks because I can't do X, Y and Z, and I only ever use this other program!" where X, Y, and Z are functions specific to one of the above types of DAW...like "I can't easily do loop-based remixes in ProTools. ProTools sucks!").
  - bphogan 11y ago
    ...I use Ableton Live to do quite a bit of non loop-based composition. It's quite easy to do and feels well supported.
    - SwellJoe 11y ago
      Yes, there's tons of overlap in all of these (sequencers and multi-track recorders were the first to begin to blur the lines, but now basic loop-based features are creeping into sequencers and both FL and Ableton can be used for nearly any basic sequencing task), but the focus of the tool makes a difference in workflow. And, the tools that pros use for specific tasks can also be indicative. You won't be surprised to find ProTools in a high end recording studio, and you won't be surprised to find a film soundtrack composer using Logic or Cubase. Likewise, you won't be surprised to find an EDM producer using Ableton. There's less overlap in what pros use than in what the tools are capable of in the hands of someone really good with that specific tool. Anyway, doesn't matter. My point is that there are several different categories of program called DAW. The way they display and receive data varies wildly, and the use cases for them is pretty diverse, and I think it's weird to call them all the same name.
  - stolio 11y ago
    It's strange to have Ardour and Reaper up there with ProTools and Logic described as a MIDI sequencer. That's how it started but at some point it crossed over into a full-featured professional DAW and I'm not sure even Reaper has caught up to its live instrument mixing and editing capabilities. Ableton is literally a sequencer (and much more) and probably belongs in your MIDI sequencer category.
    - SwellJoe 11y ago
      "at some point it crossed over into a full-featured professional DAW" See what I mean? It's a DAW, but not like these other DAWs. It's a real DAW, you know? Point stands: "DAW" means too many things to mean anything.
      - 11y ago
yellowapple 11y ago
Seems to check off all the boxes for things I'm looking for in a good music editor. The CMN support is nice, too. Downloading the demo right now.
bane 11y ago
Wow, this looks really impressive. I've messed around with trackers since the 90s, and I think lots of people who do kind of wish they operated a bit more like this rather than with fussy hex values and hard to remember effect codes. I've always, for example, just wanted to draw the shape of the track volume as a left-to-right line over top of a track rather than having to hand edit the volume column or use a volume effect (or use a track-effect that's in a different window somewhere). This looks like it's really going the right direction. The compressor also is worth taking a look at.
omfg 11y ago
Might want to change the name, Radium is an internet streaming application that has been around for years. People might find it confusing, I did..: http://catpigstudios.com http://catpigstudios.com
- moogly 11y ago
  This Radium has been around since 1999.
alecrasmussen 11y ago
The features mention "Extension language support" that lets a user write programs to generate music / modify songs. Anyone care to elaborate on this or provide some examples of extension languages (maybe integration with ChucK or Max/MSP)?
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  Some of the screenshots have Pd (Pure Data) running.
  - alecrasmussen 11y ago
    Ah, thanks! It even looks like Pure Data is already embedded (says it's linux-only for now). According to Pd's homepage it looks like you can even use "externals, i.e. objects developed in another programming language" as part of your workflow.
    - buovjaga 11y ago
      https://github.com/kmatheussen/radium/issues/69 https://github.com/kmatheussen/radium/issues/69 The developer says: "Pd should be included in both windows and osx as soon as I convert Radium to use the new multi-dsp system in Pd that Miller made last year."
bittercynic 11y ago
The subscription model is beautiful. Must subscribe to access the full version. You can unsubscribe and only lose access to updates.
ne0phyte 11y ago
It looks nice, but, serious question, is there a reason why the UI in all screenshots is so dark and completely lacks contrast? I really couldn't look at black text or dark blue text on a dark background all day :/ Examples of what I mean: - http://users.notam02.no/~kjetism/radium/pictures/overview1.png http://users.notam02.no/~kjetism/radium/pictures/overview1.p... - http://users.notam02.no/~kjetism/radium/pictures/pluginmenu.png http://users.notam02.no/~kjetism/radium/pictures/pluginmenu....
- kyberias 11y ago
  That alone makes the program entirely unusable.
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  I thought there was some sort of CSS overlay or something gone awry. But, seeing some of the images with the pd window being all white makes it clear that the color scheme is just ridiculous.
  - ne0phyte 11y ago
    I even thought the images might be corrupted, saved them and opened them locally haha. It really is an awful colorscheme and I wonder how anyone could think that's usable.
- agumonkey 11y ago
  Unless they hardcoded the color scheme, this won't be an issue for long.
  - ne0phyte 11y ago
    It's still weird to showcase a project with what is quite a strain to the eyes for most people.
    - agumonkey 11y ago
      Who knows, maybe the web team messed up with the image post processing step and coders aren't aware of the error yet.
SwellJoe 11y ago
So, because I can't resist any new audio toy, I downloaded it and tried it...it locked up X, or the desktop or something, on Fedora 21. Which seems odd, as it's using tk for the interface, which ought to be old and stable, by now. But, maybe nobody is testing current desktops against tk anymore, so bugs don't get found. Also, the color scheme in the screenshots is really the color scheme; it's not just botched screenshots. Completely unreadable, for me, at any reasonable distance from my monitor. I mean, I understand I'm not so young and my eyesight has never been great, but I can't believe this is a comfortable level of contrast for anyone. Hopefully this is easily configurable.
- fundamental 11y ago
  There was a relatively recent bug in X11 which would cause X to crash when any arcs were drawn on screen with certain beginning/ending angles. This might be what's affecting you at the moment.
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    A yum update and reboot allowed it to work. You're likely right (or it was some other Xorg bug). Getting color scheme readable was easy (making it look nice and be readable will take a lot more work). It feels pretty complex, and it seems like it's heavily reliant on hotkeys to be able to do much of anything quickly/easily. I recall being very effective at getting ideas working on hotkey based trackers in the distant past, but it's been a long time, and I dunno if I have the patience to learn enough of it to be productive even approaching the level I'm productive on other tools. It almost feels like Impulse Tracker is its ideological ancestor, in its reliance on keyboard navigation. Which some folks love. I'm not necessarily in that camp these days. But, still an interesting experiment and UI design for music.
- a8da6b0c91d 11y ago
  > it's using tk I didn't fire it up but all I see is qt4.
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
the_cat_kittles 11y ago
it would be nice to see an editor that stops locking pitch, time, and velocity together. i made a prototype where you can manipulate sequences of pitch, velocity, time, and other concepts independently- its really awesome!
Tunecrew 11y ago
A serious question from someone who is in and out of studios weekly and who works almost daily in Ableton and weekly in Pro Tools and Logic (doing production as well as post stuff). Does anybody use something like this to make music for any professional/commercial use or is it really just of academic interest and for tinkerers (no offense - there is value there to I know). I ask because when I look at this (and I'm also an EE and a software developer) I get a headache.
- degenerate 11y ago
  I'd be interested in what you think of AudioGL: https://www.audiogl.com/en/audiogl https://www.audiogl.com/en/audiogl The project is pretty much on hold since 2013 because the sole developer disappeared in June 2014... but the site and forums remain hosted, waiting for his return. The product looked so promising in its early 2012/2013 days but now lays dormant.
- anateus 11y ago
  It looks not dissimilar from other modular editor such as AudioMulch or Buzz. I think the highest profile musician that uses AudioMulch extensively is Girl Talk, but I'm sure others have as well. Just like modular synthesizers are the purview of the... more obsessed sort, modular editors occupy a similar more specialized niche. Edit: not dissimilar, but still different in a bunch of ways. Seems more like an attempt to marry the more common DAW audio-clip style with the modular synth environment (just based on screenshots).
- smosher_ 11y ago
  Yes. Maybe. I don't know what you're latching on to, but I know both Jeskola Buzz¹ and Renoise² (which has some connection to the Buzz community) have been used commercially. These cover the tracker style + extra learning curve + crazy piles of features + weird UI, which should cover most of the bases. This is not so much stranger in absolute terms than the modular synths people build (and probably a bit less obsessive.) I haven't used it, but imo if you're getting a headache that's a bad sign regardless of what it looks like. You should do most of the looking with your ears and not have to use your eyes too much. That's what I used to love about trackers, but I haven't used one seriously since Impulse Tracker. ¹https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeskola_Buzz#Notable_users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeskola_Buzz#Notable_users ²http://www.renoise.com/artists http://www.renoise.com/artists
abruzzi 11y ago
I love this line on the download page: Information to warez groups: Since the source is open, it should be simple to turn the demo into a fully featured version. Please let me know of any problems. (Just compiling the source is cheating!)
dmacvicar 11y ago
It looks awesome. First thing that looks like candidate for contributions is a build system. I tried to build a package out of it and it is a collection of Makefiles and shell scripts that for sure can be used to build the thing on a developer's machine, but not useful outside that context.
- programLyrique 11y ago
  Not sure the developper is interested in contributions about that: https://github.com/kmatheussen/radium/issues/223 https://github.com/kmatheussen/radium/issues/223
  - dmacvicar 11y ago
    I see. Well, from the homepage, the developer sells the builds so I can understand he is not interested in making packaging and distribution easier.
    - buovjaga 11y ago
      It doesn't seem to be the case, though: "The linux binaries have only existed a few months, and I've got requests to add a "make install" option to the makefile for a couple of years, so that it would be easier to package. And I've refused to to it for the same reasons as above. So this has got very little to do with "selling builds". Of course, I can't deny anyone to make custom radium packages, but I hope they won't. It's simpler and safer if everyone uses the official package, which I also know is packaged (fairly) properly."
pdkl95 11y ago
Warning: this program trashes the keymap table. An incorrect attempt is made to save/restore the by extracting the original name (e.g. "us") of the keymap layout with ${RADIUM_DIR}/bin/packages/setxkbmap/setxkbmap -query and then attempting to restore the keymap table with # LAYOUT_NAME="us" ${RADIUM_DIR}/bin/packages/setxkbmap/setxkbmap -synch -layout ${LAYOUT_NAME} That is, it assumes no modifications have been made to the table, and restores the original standard layout. This is a serious problem if you use utilities like xmodmap(1).

116 points by buovjaga 11y ago

z5h 11y ago

Looks very cool. I'll definitely give it a try. As a huge fan of Sunvox, Radium looks quite appealing.

pen2l 11y ago

Sorry for silly question, but: is "Radium" a DAW? If not, how does it compare -- what can it do that a DAW can't, and what can't it do that a DAW can

Gracana 11y ago
It seems pretty tracker-like, with columns for instruments and rows containing notes, but what makes it different is the focus on graphical editing and automation. The node editor thing on the right for connecting effects looks pretty cool, too.
yellowapple 11y ago
It looks like it is indeed a DAW (supports VST and LADSPA, which is a tell-tale sign), but with a lot more/better features and a pretty visible tracker heritage.
SwellJoe 11y ago
"DAW" is a ridiculously overloaded term. It contains such diverse tools as: REAPER and Ardour and ProTools - Multitrack recording tools, used for recording live performances, with some basic MIDI capabilities built up over the years. Cubase and Logic - MIDI sequencers, with multitrack capabilities accreted over many years to the point where multitrack recording (in the same contexts as the above category) is not unheard of, though the UI focus is different. Fruity Loops and Ableton Live - Loop composition tools (for lack of a better description). Both are designed around loops as the basic building block of sound. While they have limited recording and MIDI capabilities, one likely wouldn't use FL or Ableton to make a symphonic soundtrack for a film, and certainly wouldn't use either to record a full band of performing musicians. Renoise and apparently Radium - Trackers for the current century. These evolved out of the old Soundtracker style music programs (including Protracker, MED, etc. on the Amiga and then onto FT and Impulse Tracker on early PCs). They've acquired most of the functionality one expects from sequencers and loop based music programs, but don't usually have any multi-track recording facilities. All are called DAWs by their developers and users, and yet how one uses them is pretty different. I pretty regularly use Ardour and REAPER for multitrack recording. And, I occasionally use Fruity Loops and LMMS for tinkering with remixes. And, I occasionally use Renoise for making electronic music. I'd like it if there were separate terms for each of these concepts, as it would give folks a good language for talking about what each of these types of tools do. It would also rule out a lot of the stupid confrontational crap that often comes up ("Your program sucks because I can't do X, Y and Z, and I only ever use this other program!" where X, Y, and Z are functions specific to one of the above types of DAW...like "I can't easily do loop-based remixes in ProTools. ProTools sucks!").
- bphogan 11y ago
  ...I use Ableton Live to do quite a bit of non loop-based composition. It's quite easy to do and feels well supported.
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    Yes, there's tons of overlap in all of these (sequencers and multi-track recorders were the first to begin to blur the lines, but now basic loop-based features are creeping into sequencers and both FL and Ableton can be used for nearly any basic sequencing task), but the focus of the tool makes a difference in workflow. And, the tools that pros use for specific tasks can also be indicative. You won't be surprised to find ProTools in a high end recording studio, and you won't be surprised to find a film soundtrack composer using Logic or Cubase. Likewise, you won't be surprised to find an EDM producer using Ableton. There's less overlap in what pros use than in what the tools are capable of in the hands of someone really good with that specific tool. Anyway, doesn't matter. My point is that there are several different categories of program called DAW. The way they display and receive data varies wildly, and the use cases for them is pretty diverse, and I think it's weird to call them all the same name.
- stolio 11y ago
  It's strange to have Ardour and Reaper up there with ProTools and Logic described as a MIDI sequencer. That's how it started but at some point it crossed over into a full-featured professional DAW and I'm not sure even Reaper has caught up to its live instrument mixing and editing capabilities. Ableton is literally a sequencer (and much more) and probably belongs in your MIDI sequencer category.
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    "at some point it crossed over into a full-featured professional DAW" See what I mean? It's a DAW, but not like these other DAWs. It's a real DAW, you know? Point stands: "DAW" means too many things to mean anything.
    - 11y ago

yellowapple 11y ago

Seems to check off all the boxes for things I'm looking for in a good music editor. The CMN support is nice, too. Downloading the demo right now.

bane 11y ago

Wow, this looks really impressive. I've messed around with trackers since the 90s, and I think lots of people who do kind of wish they operated a bit more like this rather than with fussy hex values and hard to remember effect codes. I've always, for example, just wanted to draw the shape of the track volume as a left-to-right line over top of a track rather than having to hand edit the volume column or use a volume effect (or use a track-effect that's in a different window somewhere). This looks like it's really going the right direction. The compressor also is worth taking a look at.

omfg 11y ago

Might want to change the name, Radium is an internet streaming application that has been around for years. People might find it confusing, I did..: http://catpigstudios.com http://catpigstudios.com

moogly 11y ago
This Radium has been around since 1999.

alecrasmussen 11y ago

The features mention "Extension language support" that lets a user write programs to generate music / modify songs. Anyone care to elaborate on this or provide some examples of extension languages (maybe integration with ChucK or Max/MSP)?

SwellJoe 11y ago
Some of the screenshots have Pd (Pure Data) running.
- alecrasmussen 11y ago
  Ah, thanks! It even looks like Pure Data is already embedded (says it's linux-only for now). According to Pd's homepage it looks like you can even use "externals, i.e. objects developed in another programming language" as part of your workflow.
  - buovjaga 11y ago
    https://github.com/kmatheussen/radium/issues/69 https://github.com/kmatheussen/radium/issues/69 The developer says: "Pd should be included in both windows and osx as soon as I convert Radium to use the new multi-dsp system in Pd that Miller made last year."

bittercynic 11y ago

The subscription model is beautiful. Must subscribe to access the full version. You can unsubscribe and only lose access to updates.

ne0phyte 11y ago

It looks nice, but, serious question, is there a reason why the UI in all screenshots is so dark and completely lacks contrast? I really couldn't look at black text or dark blue text on a dark background all day :/ Examples of what I mean: - http://users.notam02.no/~kjetism/radium/pictures/overview1.png http://users.notam02.no/~kjetism/radium/pictures/overview1.p... - http://users.notam02.no/~kjetism/radium/pictures/pluginmenu.png http://users.notam02.no/~kjetism/radium/pictures/pluginmenu....

kyberias 11y ago
That alone makes the program entirely unusable.
SwellJoe 11y ago
I thought there was some sort of CSS overlay or something gone awry. But, seeing some of the images with the pd window being all white makes it clear that the color scheme is just ridiculous.
- ne0phyte 11y ago
  I even thought the images might be corrupted, saved them and opened them locally haha. It really is an awful colorscheme and I wonder how anyone could think that's usable.
agumonkey 11y ago
Unless they hardcoded the color scheme, this won't be an issue for long.
- ne0phyte 11y ago
  It's still weird to showcase a project with what is quite a strain to the eyes for most people.
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    Who knows, maybe the web team messed up with the image post processing step and coders aren't aware of the error yet.

SwellJoe 11y ago

So, because I can't resist any new audio toy, I downloaded it and tried it...it locked up X, or the desktop or something, on Fedora 21. Which seems odd, as it's using tk for the interface, which ought to be old and stable, by now. But, maybe nobody is testing current desktops against tk anymore, so bugs don't get found. Also, the color scheme in the screenshots is really the color scheme; it's not just botched screenshots. Completely unreadable, for me, at any reasonable distance from my monitor. I mean, I understand I'm not so young and my eyesight has never been great, but I can't believe this is a comfortable level of contrast for anyone. Hopefully this is easily configurable.

fundamental 11y ago
There was a relatively recent bug in X11 which would cause X to crash when any arcs were drawn on screen with certain beginning/ending angles. This might be what's affecting you at the moment.
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  A yum update and reboot allowed it to work. You're likely right (or it was some other Xorg bug). Getting color scheme readable was easy (making it look nice and be readable will take a lot more work). It feels pretty complex, and it seems like it's heavily reliant on hotkeys to be able to do much of anything quickly/easily. I recall being very effective at getting ideas working on hotkey based trackers in the distant past, but it's been a long time, and I dunno if I have the patience to learn enough of it to be productive even approaching the level I'm productive on other tools. It almost feels like Impulse Tracker is its ideological ancestor, in its reliance on keyboard navigation. Which some folks love. I'm not necessarily in that camp these days. But, still an interesting experiment and UI design for music.
a8da6b0c91d 11y ago
> it's using tk I didn't fire it up but all I see is qt4.
- SwellJoe 11y ago

the_cat_kittles 11y ago

it would be nice to see an editor that stops locking pitch, time, and velocity together. i made a prototype where you can manipulate sequences of pitch, velocity, time, and other concepts independently- its really awesome!

Tunecrew 11y ago

A serious question from someone who is in and out of studios weekly and who works almost daily in Ableton and weekly in Pro Tools and Logic (doing production as well as post stuff). Does anybody use something like this to make music for any professional/commercial use or is it really just of academic interest and for tinkerers (no offense - there is value there to I know). I ask because when I look at this (and I'm also an EE and a software developer) I get a headache.

degenerate 11y ago
I'd be interested in what you think of AudioGL: https://www.audiogl.com/en/audiogl https://www.audiogl.com/en/audiogl The project is pretty much on hold since 2013 because the sole developer disappeared in June 2014... but the site and forums remain hosted, waiting for his return. The product looked so promising in its early 2012/2013 days but now lays dormant.
anateus 11y ago
It looks not dissimilar from other modular editor such as AudioMulch or Buzz. I think the highest profile musician that uses AudioMulch extensively is Girl Talk, but I'm sure others have as well. Just like modular synthesizers are the purview of the... more obsessed sort, modular editors occupy a similar more specialized niche. Edit: not dissimilar, but still different in a bunch of ways. Seems more like an attempt to marry the more common DAW audio-clip style with the modular synth environment (just based on screenshots).
smosher_ 11y ago
Yes. Maybe. I don't know what you're latching on to, but I know both Jeskola Buzz¹ and Renoise² (which has some connection to the Buzz community) have been used commercially. These cover the tracker style + extra learning curve + crazy piles of features + weird UI, which should cover most of the bases. This is not so much stranger in absolute terms than the modular synths people build (and probably a bit less obsessive.) I haven't used it, but imo if you're getting a headache that's a bad sign regardless of what it looks like. You should do most of the looking with your ears and not have to use your eyes too much. That's what I used to love about trackers, but I haven't used one seriously since Impulse Tracker. ¹https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeskola_Buzz#Notable_users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeskola_Buzz#Notable_users ²http://www.renoise.com/artists http://www.renoise.com/artists

abruzzi 11y ago

I love this line on the download page: Information to warez groups: Since the source is open, it should be simple to turn the demo into a fully featured version. Please let me know of any problems. (Just compiling the source is cheating!)

dmacvicar 11y ago

It looks awesome. First thing that looks like candidate for contributions is a build system. I tried to build a package out of it and it is a collection of Makefiles and shell scripts that for sure can be used to build the thing on a developer's machine, but not useful outside that context.

programLyrique 11y ago
Not sure the developper is interested in contributions about that: https://github.com/kmatheussen/radium/issues/223 https://github.com/kmatheussen/radium/issues/223
- dmacvicar 11y ago
  I see. Well, from the homepage, the developer sells the builds so I can understand he is not interested in making packaging and distribution easier.
  - buovjaga 11y ago
    It doesn't seem to be the case, though: "The linux binaries have only existed a few months, and I've got requests to add a "make install" option to the makefile for a couple of years, so that it would be easier to package. And I've refused to to it for the same reasons as above. So this has got very little to do with "selling builds". Of course, I can't deny anyone to make custom radium packages, but I hope they won't. It's simpler and safer if everyone uses the official package, which I also know is packaged (fairly) properly."

pdkl95 11y ago

Warning: this program trashes the keymap table. An incorrect attempt is made to save/restore the by extracting the original name (e.g. "us") of the keymap layout with ${RADIUM_DIR}/bin/packages/setxkbmap/setxkbmap -query and then attempting to restore the keymap table with # LAYOUT_NAME="us" ${RADIUM_DIR}/bin/packages/setxkbmap/setxkbmap -synch -layout ${LAYOUT_NAME} That is, it assumes no modifications have been made to the table, and restores the original standard layout. This is a serious problem if you use utilities like xmodmap(1).