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I would be very hesitant to invest or subscribe to a product that solely relies on data scraping. You're asking for trouble if you don't obtain permission firs

I would be very hesitant to invest or subscribe to a product that solely relies on data scraping. You're asking for trouble if you don't obtain permission first to include another company's data within your product. The one legal case that always comes to mind in terms of data scraping is Craigslist Inc. v. 3Taps Inc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craigslist_Inc._v._3Taps_Inc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craigslist_Inc._v._3Taps_Inc.

btbuildem 11y ago
As far as I know, CL "lost" on that one - as part of the proceedings they claimed that the ads posted by users were CL's property, people freaked out about it, and the court set a precedent that the data are the property of those who posted it (ie, CL doesn't own the content of the postings). So 3taps (and Padmapper, where the CL legal initially attacked) keep ticking along.
- anseljh 11y ago
  That case is still alive and kicking, actually. Craigslist just filed a motion to amend its complaint (again). Full docket: https://www.pacerpro.com/cases/158665 https://www.pacerpro.com/cases/158665 Motion: https://s3.amazonaws.com/pacer-documents/N.D.%20Cal.%2012-cv-03816%20dckt%20000234_000%20filed%202015-04-24.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/pacer-documents/N.D.%20Cal.%2012-cv...
  - btbuildem 11y ago
    Thank you - good to know of the new developments.
nodelessness 11y ago
There are entire businesses that have full 150 members team that do "big data" work that is essentially just scraping a tonne of data off of many places on the web. If the company's data is an aggregate from many different sources and how can the original sources' claim be established?
- theaccordance 11y ago
  A lawyer would probably be a better person to answer this question, but if I had to venture a guess: 1. Identifying products that the source company is the sole distribute of 2. Logs that are able to identify the crawler and what it accessed.
- fragmede 11y ago
  Plagarism/copyright infringement can be proven through the use of 'trap streets' - wait for the site to scrape the fake data off your site, which could only have come from you, since you made it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street
  - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
    >Plagarism/copyright infringement can be proven through the use of 'trap streets' // Copyright doesn't protect data it protects presentation. On a map the part of the map with the trap street has usually been traced, the presentation is copied. If you use the same map to compile a street listing then you've not copied you've used the information embedded in that presentation. If I create a webpage with all the event information held on a particular pin-board then that is not copying, if I add a thumbnail or other image of each poster that is normally copying. The information is free (Database Rights like EC Directive 96/9/EC not withstanding). Plagiarism is not generally illegal except as it imposes on personal contracts/agreements and on other IPR (eg copyright). For example I can recite an out-of-copyright work verbatim -- that is a work in the public domain -- on my website with no attribution (or even a fake one) and there is generally no tort or crime committed regardless of how morally wrong most people would find that. This is not legal advice.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      > Copyright doesn't protect data it protects presentation. On a map the part of the map with the trap street has usually been traced, the presentation is copied. If you use the same map to compile a street listing then you've not copied you've used the information embedded in that presentation. It also protects collections of information, and its quite possible for repackaging the same collection of information with a different presentation to be found to be a derivative work. ISTR cases related to copyrighted medical code sets and the like where this was the case.
bengali3 11y ago
> A friend who is a sales associate .. I don't think the target user will care where the data comes from if it saves/makes them money.
- un-devmox 11y ago
  > I don't think the target user will care where the data comes from if it saves/makes them money. I may also be scraping the targeted user or targeted user boss' website. That's part of the conundrum.
  - bengali3 11y ago
    If you are potentially giving them free marketing and possibly driving them more/better sales then it shouldn't be an issue, right? If they think their sales will be cut because of your tool, they will raise flags. if they think its a great resource, they'll share it. trying to relate, but I worked with a transportation brokerage firm. Many fleet 'operators' did retail and wholesale sales (ie to brokers like my co & other fleet operators). It was an interesting dynamic, but most of the sales team was only worried about sales and quality. For the fleet operators, retail clients were more profitable, but wholesale made up the volume. One issue could be if you are showing a 'price estimate' where they would not like one shown, but ask your sources what their issues would be. Your user base is the asset and your ally, make sure they are comfortable with what they're getting in return.

btbuildem 11y ago

As far as I know, CL "lost" on that one - as part of the proceedings they claimed that the ads posted by users were CL's property, people freaked out about it, and the court set a precedent that the data are the property of those who posted it (ie, CL doesn't own the content of the postings). So 3taps (and Padmapper, where the CL legal initially attacked) keep ticking along.

anseljh 11y ago
That case is still alive and kicking, actually. Craigslist just filed a motion to amend its complaint (again). Full docket: https://www.pacerpro.com/cases/158665 https://www.pacerpro.com/cases/158665 Motion: https://s3.amazonaws.com/pacer-documents/N.D.%20Cal.%2012-cv-03816%20dckt%20000234_000%20filed%202015-04-24.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/pacer-documents/N.D.%20Cal.%2012-cv...
- btbuildem 11y ago
  Thank you - good to know of the new developments.

nodelessness 11y ago

There are entire businesses that have full 150 members team that do "big data" work that is essentially just scraping a tonne of data off of many places on the web. If the company's data is an aggregate from many different sources and how can the original sources' claim be established?

theaccordance 11y ago
A lawyer would probably be a better person to answer this question, but if I had to venture a guess: 1. Identifying products that the source company is the sole distribute of 2. Logs that are able to identify the crawler and what it accessed.
fragmede 11y ago
Plagarism/copyright infringement can be proven through the use of 'trap streets' - wait for the site to scrape the fake data off your site, which could only have come from you, since you made it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  >Plagarism/copyright infringement can be proven through the use of 'trap streets' // Copyright doesn't protect data it protects presentation. On a map the part of the map with the trap street has usually been traced, the presentation is copied. If you use the same map to compile a street listing then you've not copied you've used the information embedded in that presentation. If I create a webpage with all the event information held on a particular pin-board then that is not copying, if I add a thumbnail or other image of each poster that is normally copying. The information is free (Database Rights like EC Directive 96/9/EC not withstanding). Plagiarism is not generally illegal except as it imposes on personal contracts/agreements and on other IPR (eg copyright). For example I can recite an out-of-copyright work verbatim -- that is a work in the public domain -- on my website with no attribution (or even a fake one) and there is generally no tort or crime committed regardless of how morally wrong most people would find that. This is not legal advice.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Copyright doesn't protect data it protects presentation. On a map the part of the map with the trap street has usually been traced, the presentation is copied. If you use the same map to compile a street listing then you've not copied you've used the information embedded in that presentation. It also protects collections of information, and its quite possible for repackaging the same collection of information with a different presentation to be found to be a derivative work. ISTR cases related to copyrighted medical code sets and the like where this was the case.

bengali3 11y ago

> A friend who is a sales associate .. I don't think the target user will care where the data comes from if it saves/makes them money.

un-devmox 11y ago
> I don't think the target user will care where the data comes from if it saves/makes them money. I may also be scraping the targeted user or targeted user boss' website. That's part of the conundrum.
- bengali3 11y ago
  If you are potentially giving them free marketing and possibly driving them more/better sales then it shouldn't be an issue, right? If they think their sales will be cut because of your tool, they will raise flags. if they think its a great resource, they'll share it. trying to relate, but I worked with a transportation brokerage firm. Many fleet 'operators' did retail and wholesale sales (ie to brokers like my co & other fleet operators). It was an interesting dynamic, but most of the sales team was only worried about sales and quality. For the fleet operators, retail clients were more profitable, but wholesale made up the volume. One issue could be if you are showing a 'price estimate' where they would not like one shown, but ask your sources what their issues would be. Your user base is the asset and your ally, make sure they are comfortable with what they're getting in return.