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There are a number of places currently where the government will subsidize electricity used for cars. In Bowling Green, Ohio for example city parking lots have

by Navarr 11y ago

There are a number of places currently where the government will subsidize electricity used for cars. In Bowling Green, Ohio for example city parking lots have a couple electric car chargers that are free. Park your car & pay the meter (the parking isn't free!), plug it in, and walk downtown for some eatery. http://bgsujournalism.com/j4200/bowling-green-grows-fond-of-electric-charging-stations-city-monitors-usage/ http://bgsujournalism.com/j4200/bowling-green-grows-fond-of-... http://www.bgsu.edu/campus-sustainability/transportation/electric-vehicle-charging-stations.html http://www.bgsu.edu/campus-sustainability/transportation/ele...

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
>There are a number of places currently where the government will subsidize electricity used for cars. So both the car and electricity are subsidized by hard working tax payers? Well, that can't last forever, so what's the REAL cost here? I think when we remove the welfare the cutsey "OMG GAS COSTS MONEY" argument will be dismissed as hyperbolic nonsense it truly is. I think the "electric is cheaper" argument is complete bunk without government welfare. The real cost of that giant Lithium-Ion battery and energy is non-trivial. Lets remember we're talking about a $100,000 Tesla here. That's not affordable by most. Not to mention, the money vs time cost. When I take a roadtrip or a long drive I can drive 300+miles, no issue, and refill in a couple minutes. With an electric I need to stop often and spend god knows how long getting a full charge, then go again. Imagine the costs here associated with long range trucking, delivery vehicles, etc. Or just time cut from my precious vacation time. Unless there's a massive breakthrough in battery cost, you're actually paying a lot more than an ICE car for day to day driving. Gasoline is so energy dense, so plentiful, and so easy to work with, its going to be VERY difficult getting off it. I pity the electric guys. They know its a uphill battle and lodging themselves into the luxury high end for economic survival is very telling. The "low" end is still a $35k+ car with quarter the range of the Tesla, which is terrible from pretty much any rational metric.
- icebraining 11y ago
  All energy forms receive massive subsidies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies#United_States
  - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
    The USG is not giving me $10,000 to buy a ICE Ford (between fed and state, this is what I would receive). Your argument is fairly disingenuous considering the massive EV tax breaks in existence to today, that are temporary and have done nothing to lower the cost of high capacity Lithium-Ion batteries. We're 12 years in with thie absurd corporate welfare and still no cheap EV car that can remotely compete with ICE. I'm getting a little sick of hearing "Elon will figure it out in the next 18-24 months." EV enthusiasts have been saying that for YEARS now. I'm all for letting Tesla try to compete as-is. They've eaten enough corporate welfare. They clearly cannot compete with ICE. Luxury electrics should not be subsidized by the working poor, middle class families, etc.
    - rplnt 11y ago
      They probably do increase ratio of electric cars, which in turn increases supply of infrastructure, which will lead to increased demand for electric cars even when the subsidies run out.
    - pdabbadabba 11y ago
      > "have done nothing to lower the cost of high capacity Lithium-Ion batteries." What's the evidence for this claim? What I see is expansion availability of Lithium Ion batteries for average consumers in the form of the recently announced PowerWall, and EVs other than the Tesla. Could I have bought a 10kWh battery for $3,500 ten years ago? Five? It's possible, of course, that this would have happened without the subsidies, but given the rapid growth of this industry in the last few years, I think the burden is on you to offer some evidence that it's totally unrelated to the subsidies.
    - DannoHung 11y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_2008%E2%80%9310_automotive_industry_crisis_on_the_United_States#Federal_Government_bailout_process_and_timeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_2008%E2%80%9310_...
- pkaye 11y ago
  Why was this post downvoted anyway?
  - inyourtenement 11y ago
    Probably because his tone is hyperbolic, yet many of his points are flat out wrong. Not a good look.
- sblawrie 11y ago
  It's called subsidizing a positive externality, and it actually creates utility and eliminates deadweight loss. It's not "government welfare", it's the economically wise thing to do! http://www.economicshelp.org/micro-economic-essays/marketfailure/subsidy-positive-ext/ http://www.economicshelp.org/micro-economic-essays/marketfai...
- embwbam 11y ago
  I have a Nissan Leaf. It retails at $29k, before the tax incentive. They can be leased with no down payment for $250/mo. It's fun to drive, well-made, I absolutely love it. Teslas are expensive, but if you want an electric car there are many affordable options.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    You pay for it with range though in the less expensive options. Even as a second car, 80 mile battery range is pretty much useless for me. Yeah, I could run some local errands or commute to my office but I couldn't even drive in to the city for dinner or some other evening activity (a bit over 40 miles each way).
    - mikeash 11y ago
      If you can charge while you do your evening activity (becoming pretty common these days) then it would be practical for that. I don't mean to argue that this makes the EV perfect, but it's something to consider just on the off chance that you'd otherwise want to buy one.
      - ghaff 11y ago
        Not really an option. It's typically street parking. I'd seriously consider an affordable and nice to drive EV but my range threshold is probably 200 miles--at least 150. Otherwise, there would be too much "Do I have enough range?" fiddling for my common use cases--especially once the battery degrades a bit.
        mikeash 11y ago
        I'm pretty much with you. If and when the prophesied $30,000 200-mile EV happens, it'll really change the game. I do see a lot of Leafs charging around here in various places, so it does seem like a reasonably practical alternative for many. I get nervous if I have to charge away from home, myself.
ekianjo 11y ago
> There are a number of places currently where the government will subsidize electricity used for cars. You can hardly call subsidies "free". Everyone pays them in the end.
- djupblue 11y ago
  That is also true for the higher environmental costs of fossil fuels and health costs of exhausts fumes.
  - dbdr 11y ago
    True. But let's not forget how electricity is generated. In the US 68% is generated from fossil fuels (coal and gas). One also (indirectly) burns fossil fuels when driving an electric car.

by Navarr 11y ago

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

>There are a number of places currently where the government will subsidize electricity used for cars. So both the car and electricity are subsidized by hard working tax payers? Well, that can't last forever, so what's the REAL cost here? I think when we remove the welfare the cutsey "OMG GAS COSTS MONEY" argument will be dismissed as hyperbolic nonsense it truly is. I think the "electric is cheaper" argument is complete bunk without government welfare. The real cost of that giant Lithium-Ion battery and energy is non-trivial. Lets remember we're talking about a $100,000 Tesla here. That's not affordable by most. Not to mention, the money vs time cost. When I take a roadtrip or a long drive I can drive 300+miles, no issue, and refill in a couple minutes. With an electric I need to stop often and spend god knows how long getting a full charge, then go again. Imagine the costs here associated with long range trucking, delivery vehicles, etc. Or just time cut from my precious vacation time. Unless there's a massive breakthrough in battery cost, you're actually paying a lot more than an ICE car for day to day driving. Gasoline is so energy dense, so plentiful, and so easy to work with, its going to be VERY difficult getting off it. I pity the electric guys. They know its a uphill battle and lodging themselves into the luxury high end for economic survival is very telling. The "low" end is still a $35k+ car with quarter the range of the Tesla, which is terrible from pretty much any rational metric.

icebraining 11y ago
All energy forms receive massive subsidies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies#United_States
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  The USG is not giving me $10,000 to buy a ICE Ford (between fed and state, this is what I would receive). Your argument is fairly disingenuous considering the massive EV tax breaks in existence to today, that are temporary and have done nothing to lower the cost of high capacity Lithium-Ion batteries. We're 12 years in with thie absurd corporate welfare and still no cheap EV car that can remotely compete with ICE. I'm getting a little sick of hearing "Elon will figure it out in the next 18-24 months." EV enthusiasts have been saying that for YEARS now. I'm all for letting Tesla try to compete as-is. They've eaten enough corporate welfare. They clearly cannot compete with ICE. Luxury electrics should not be subsidized by the working poor, middle class families, etc.
  - rplnt 11y ago
    They probably do increase ratio of electric cars, which in turn increases supply of infrastructure, which will lead to increased demand for electric cars even when the subsidies run out.
  - pdabbadabba 11y ago
    > "have done nothing to lower the cost of high capacity Lithium-Ion batteries." What's the evidence for this claim? What I see is expansion availability of Lithium Ion batteries for average consumers in the form of the recently announced PowerWall, and EVs other than the Tesla. Could I have bought a 10kWh battery for $3,500 ten years ago? Five? It's possible, of course, that this would have happened without the subsidies, but given the rapid growth of this industry in the last few years, I think the burden is on you to offer some evidence that it's totally unrelated to the subsidies.
  - DannoHung 11y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_2008%E2%80%9310_automotive_industry_crisis_on_the_United_States#Federal_Government_bailout_process_and_timeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_2008%E2%80%9310_...
pkaye 11y ago
Why was this post downvoted anyway?
- inyourtenement 11y ago
  Probably because his tone is hyperbolic, yet many of his points are flat out wrong. Not a good look.
sblawrie 11y ago
It's called subsidizing a positive externality, and it actually creates utility and eliminates deadweight loss. It's not "government welfare", it's the economically wise thing to do! http://www.economicshelp.org/micro-economic-essays/marketfailure/subsidy-positive-ext/ http://www.economicshelp.org/micro-economic-essays/marketfai...
embwbam 11y ago
I have a Nissan Leaf. It retails at $29k, before the tax incentive. They can be leased with no down payment for $250/mo. It's fun to drive, well-made, I absolutely love it. Teslas are expensive, but if you want an electric car there are many affordable options.
- ghaff 11y ago
  You pay for it with range though in the less expensive options. Even as a second car, 80 mile battery range is pretty much useless for me. Yeah, I could run some local errands or commute to my office but I couldn't even drive in to the city for dinner or some other evening activity (a bit over 40 miles each way).
  - mikeash 11y ago
    If you can charge while you do your evening activity (becoming pretty common these days) then it would be practical for that. I don't mean to argue that this makes the EV perfect, but it's something to consider just on the off chance that you'd otherwise want to buy one.
    - ghaff 11y ago
      Not really an option. It's typically street parking. I'd seriously consider an affordable and nice to drive EV but my range threshold is probably 200 miles--at least 150. Otherwise, there would be too much "Do I have enough range?" fiddling for my common use cases--especially once the battery degrades a bit.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        I'm pretty much with you. If and when the prophesied $30,000 200-mile EV happens, it'll really change the game. I do see a lot of Leafs charging around here in various places, so it does seem like a reasonably practical alternative for many. I get nervous if I have to charge away from home, myself.

ekianjo 11y ago

> There are a number of places currently where the government will subsidize electricity used for cars. You can hardly call subsidies "free". Everyone pays them in the end.

djupblue 11y ago
That is also true for the higher environmental costs of fossil fuels and health costs of exhausts fumes.
- dbdr 11y ago
  True. But let's not forget how electricity is generated. In the US 68% is generated from fossil fuels (coal and gas). One also (indirectly) burns fossil fuels when driving an electric car.