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From a friend who is in the battery business: "LIB loses capacity over time and cycle. Grid storage requires extremely large cycle life, cheap and high power ca

by yzh 11y ago

From a friend who is in the battery business: "LIB loses capacity over time and cycle. Grid storage requires extremely large cycle life, cheap and high power capability for all the flow of renewable energy source. LIB only has the last one. Maybe Elon Musk can make it cheap but cycle life is still gonna be the problem needs to be solved."

ghshephard 11y ago
The batteries come with a 10 year warranty.
- kbenson 11y ago
  And an optional 10 year extension.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    So at what capacity is the battery warranty going to kick in? At what number of deep-cycle discharges does it void?
    - ghshephard 11y ago
      There is some chatter that the 10 kWh battery is actually larger, under the hood, so deep-cycle discharges never occur. Anyways - the entire purpose of the 10 kWh battery, is to be used in scenarios in which you fill them with Solar during the day and (potentially) drain them at night. So, unless someone states otherwise, I'd presume daily full discharge of the 10 kWh for that 10 year warranty.
TaylorAlexander 11y ago
Musk will warranty the hell out of batteries. Maybe they'll wear out in 5 years, but he'll have a giant battery factory in full swing by then. Tesla cars are warrantied the same way. He over promises now to get traction, then uses the profit at volume to cover any gaps in initial deployments. It's a pretty solid plan, but you have to deliver or you lose your reputation. Musk knows he can do it.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
elchief 11y ago
Is there a chemical reason for that, or is it more from physical stress like dropping?
- will_hughes 11y ago
  It's a chemical reaction - there's a gradual degradation in the anode/cathode as a reaction with the electrolyte. There's environmental factors to it too - temperature has an effect, and if you can control the temperature over time, you can reduce the effect. This lecture (1h, 13m) goes into it in detail, including how it can be prevented, ways of testing, and more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qi03QawZEk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qi03QawZEk
Daishiman 11y ago
So? Musk's batteries are the entire definition of a disruptive product. They're certainly not better than most energy solutions, but it'll be cheap and useful for a non-trivial sector of the market. We haven't even begun to see the real advances in economies of scale for batteries, let alone the technologies that have been in development in the last decade.

by yzh 11y ago

ghshephard 11y ago

The batteries come with a 10 year warranty.

kbenson 11y ago
And an optional 10 year extension.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  So at what capacity is the battery warranty going to kick in? At what number of deep-cycle discharges does it void?
  - ghshephard 11y ago
    There is some chatter that the 10 kWh battery is actually larger, under the hood, so deep-cycle discharges never occur. Anyways - the entire purpose of the 10 kWh battery, is to be used in scenarios in which you fill them with Solar during the day and (potentially) drain them at night. So, unless someone states otherwise, I'd presume daily full discharge of the 10 kWh for that 10 year warranty.

TaylorAlexander 11y ago

Musk will warranty the hell out of batteries. Maybe they'll wear out in 5 years, but he'll have a giant battery factory in full swing by then. Tesla cars are warrantied the same way. He over promises now to get traction, then uses the profit at volume to cover any gaps in initial deployments. It's a pretty solid plan, but you have to deliver or you lose your reputation. Musk knows he can do it.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

elchief 11y ago

Is there a chemical reason for that, or is it more from physical stress like dropping?

will_hughes 11y ago
It's a chemical reaction - there's a gradual degradation in the anode/cathode as a reaction with the electrolyte. There's environmental factors to it too - temperature has an effect, and if you can control the temperature over time, you can reduce the effect. This lecture (1h, 13m) goes into it in detail, including how it can be prevented, ways of testing, and more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qi03QawZEk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qi03QawZEk

Daishiman 11y ago

So? Musk's batteries are the entire definition of a disruptive product. They're certainly not better than most energy solutions, but it'll be cheap and useful for a non-trivial sector of the market. We haven't even begun to see the real advances in economies of scale for batteries, let alone the technologies that have been in development in the last decade.