4 ms·

I don't understand your comment. The death of coal is not a single step. It's already been happening because of cheap natural gas. Look at this chart for a coa

by hueving 12y ago

I don't understand your comment. The death of coal is not a single step. It's already been happening because of cheap natural gas. Look at this chart for a coal company[1]. It's already been almost dead and a major chunk of the coal GHG emissions are already cut way back (albeit at the expense of natural gas emissions). http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=ACI+Interactive#{"range":"5y"} http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=ACI+Interactive#{"range":...

schainks 12y ago
This. The number one influencer of grid tech investment is energy prices before politics (not going to discuss nuclear). Cheap gas -> we build more gas generators. Expensive gas -> we build fewer generators and even try to schedule less use of the ones we've already built, and bring online cheaper fuel sources (ie coal), etc.
Daishiman 12y ago
Yes, but natural gas is not a magical solution for CO2 reduction. It's substantially better given the reduced particulates emissions, but you're still spewing tremendous amounts of GHG into the atmosphere.
- stox 12y ago
  Per unit of heat generated, natural gas produces about half the CO2 of coal. http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=73&t=11 http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=73&t=11 That is already a big win.
rgbrenner 12y ago
Why post a stock chart for a coal company, when we have actual usage data for coal: 1949-2011: http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/pdf/sec7_9.pdf http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/pdf/sec7_9.pdf 2008-2014Q2: http://www.eia.gov/coal/production/quarterly/pdf/t32p01p1.pdf http://www.eia.gov/coal/production/quarterly/pdf/t32p01p1.pd... Unfortunately, it doesn't back up your claim at all that it's "almost dead"... It looks like we're about 18% off from the peak in 2007.
- graeme 12y ago
  Is that just US usage? World consumption appears to have risen until 2012. That's the truly meaningful stat. So I agree with you, and it looks like the world situation is worse. http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/iedindex3.cfm?tid=1&pid=1&aid=2&cid=ww,&syid=2008&eyid=2012&unit=TST http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/iedindex3.cfm?tid=1&pi...
- hueving 12y ago
  >Why post a stock chart for a coal company, when we have actual usage data for coal: Sorry if it wasn't obvious, but coal companies have to make money. They are at the point now where they are on the verge of being wiped out by natural gas. It will reach a point where coal makes absolutely no sense to invest in and the game will stop there. It's already at the point where nobody in their right mind is putting money into new large coal prospects.
  - bmelton 12y ago
    So then, coal consumption is up? http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/HNRG http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/HNRG A single company's stock production does not indicate the state of coal any more than Gateway's stock chart represents the state of technology.
    - hueving 12y ago
      >Hallador has a 45 percent equity interest in Savoy Energy, L.P., an oil and gas company with operations in Michigan. It's a bit daft to point to a company that has a pretty be hedge against the decline of coal. I pointed to ACI because they mostly depend on coal sales in the US so it's a pretty nice reflection of the US domestic coal market.
      - bmelton 12y ago
        As has been already pointed out, the domestic coal market is not indicative of the entire coal market. In the ten year period between 2002 and 2012 (the only figure I have the most recent numbers for) coal consumption went from 5 and a half billion tons to over 8 billion tons, and it's slated to hit 9 billion tons by 2019.

by hueving 12y ago

schainks 12y ago

This. The number one influencer of grid tech investment is energy prices before politics (not going to discuss nuclear). Cheap gas -> we build more gas generators. Expensive gas -> we build fewer generators and even try to schedule less use of the ones we've already built, and bring online cheaper fuel sources (ie coal), etc.

Daishiman 12y ago

Yes, but natural gas is not a magical solution for CO2 reduction. It's substantially better given the reduced particulates emissions, but you're still spewing tremendous amounts of GHG into the atmosphere.

stox 12y ago
Per unit of heat generated, natural gas produces about half the CO2 of coal. http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=73&t=11 http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=73&t=11 That is already a big win.

rgbrenner 12y ago

Why post a stock chart for a coal company, when we have actual usage data for coal: 1949-2011: http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/pdf/sec7_9.pdf http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/pdf/sec7_9.pdf 2008-2014Q2: http://www.eia.gov/coal/production/quarterly/pdf/t32p01p1.pdf http://www.eia.gov/coal/production/quarterly/pdf/t32p01p1.pd... Unfortunately, it doesn't back up your claim at all that it's "almost dead"... It looks like we're about 18% off from the peak in 2007.

graeme 12y ago
Is that just US usage? World consumption appears to have risen until 2012. That's the truly meaningful stat. So I agree with you, and it looks like the world situation is worse. http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/iedindex3.cfm?tid=1&pid=1&aid=2&cid=ww,&syid=2008&eyid=2012&unit=TST http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/iedindex3.cfm?tid=1&pi...
hueving 12y ago
>Why post a stock chart for a coal company, when we have actual usage data for coal: Sorry if it wasn't obvious, but coal companies have to make money. They are at the point now where they are on the verge of being wiped out by natural gas. It will reach a point where coal makes absolutely no sense to invest in and the game will stop there. It's already at the point where nobody in their right mind is putting money into new large coal prospects.
- bmelton 12y ago
  So then, coal consumption is up? http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/HNRG http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/HNRG A single company's stock production does not indicate the state of coal any more than Gateway's stock chart represents the state of technology.
  - hueving 12y ago
    >Hallador has a 45 percent equity interest in Savoy Energy, L.P., an oil and gas company with operations in Michigan. It's a bit daft to point to a company that has a pretty be hedge against the decline of coal. I pointed to ACI because they mostly depend on coal sales in the US so it's a pretty nice reflection of the US domestic coal market.
    - bmelton 12y ago
      As has been already pointed out, the domestic coal market is not indicative of the entire coal market. In the ten year period between 2002 and 2012 (the only figure I have the most recent numbers for) coal consumption went from 5 and a half billion tons to over 8 billion tons, and it's slated to hit 9 billion tons by 2019.