7 ms·

Current workaround: Restart the estimated 28 U.S. planes at least every 120 days[1]. Wonder how long it could take for the update to be actually available (aft

by xrstf 11y ago

Current workaround: Restart the estimated 28 U.S. planes at least every 120 days[1]. Wonder how long it could take for the update to be actually available (after testing, approving, ...). Are we talking weeks, months, years? [1] https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2015-10066.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.g...

ferrix 11y ago
Actually I am a bit surprised that somebody would want a plane to be powered on for such a long time. There is no way one could fly for that long anyway and they are regularly taken to service between long hauls.
- 51Cards 11y ago
  Agreed... while this is a software design issue I too would be surprised to see a plane powered up for that long continuously. Needs to be fixed, yes... causing a lot of issues at the moment? Probably not.
- userbinator 11y ago
  I'm guessing these GCUs are like the ECUs in a car - even when "off" they're still powered and running in a standby mode. The fact that the AD contains messages such as "batteries do not need to be disconnected" and that this "electrical power deactivation" takes approximately an hour of work suggests something needs to be gotten at, unplugged, and replugged.
  - ubernostrum 11y ago
    Boeing 787 aircraft have been in service for longer than 248 days (entry into commercial airline service was in 2011), with zero confirmed encounters with the bug in the wild. This suggests that your "always on even when off" theory does not hold up.
    - sitkack 11y ago
      You know this how? Could it be that these reboots are happening on the ground? I also have in my hand zero confirmed enounters, that doesn't prove anything.
      - ubernostrum 11y ago
        Well, A) sensationalistic news would have sensationalized the hell out of any live incident, in the air or on the ground, and B) aircraft maintenance and utilization schedules being what they are, the likelihood of any 787 actually going 248 days continuously powered on is... technically not zero, but effectively indistinguishable from zero.
- ghshephard 11y ago
  I completely agree with you - on at least three of the dozen or so flights I've taken this year, when there was a problem with the passenger area (Audio in one case, WiFi in another, and finally my POWER connector in the third) - the flight attendants power cycled the entire system, which took about 15 minutes, and let me watch the Linux boot process on the back-of-seat console. My suspicion is the "Reboot" approach is pretty common to aviation systems. It wouldn't surprise me that many of the components are rebooted daily, and almost certainly on a weekly basis. 120+ days without a reboot sounds unlikely to me.
  - userbinator 11y ago
    IFE and other "passenger amenities" are not considered critical-to-flight, and it definitely shows in their reliability (or lack thereof)... the avionics are designed to a much higher level of reliability.
  - Jtsummers 11y ago
    Dittoing userbinator here. Avionics systems aren't generally treated so casually. DO-178B [0] has several levels of designations for criticality of systems. A is the highest. Essentially, if these fail, people will die. E is the lowest. If these fail, people are inconvenienced. Passenger AV systems, wifi, those are conveniences and are not held to a terribly high standard. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DO-178B http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DO-178B
  - gkop 11y ago
    Jtsummers, userbinator: This 787 bug shuts down the generators which I understand provide only the AC power aboard the aircraft? How critical is this AC power?
    - twistedpair 11y ago
      B787 is a mostly electric airliner. There are far fewer hydrolic/cable operated systems than in previous planes. This is much safer since a explosion/leak/breach/clog in a hydrolic line won't take out an entire hydrolic system (most planes have 3 systems and fuse valves to mitigate this). However, since there are so many electricly operated systems, you really need power. The B787 as is No Bleed [1], so electrical power is also used to pressurize it [2]. Need Electric Power. [1] http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_4_07/article_02_1.html http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_4... [2] http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/218933/ http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/...
- twistedpair 11y ago
  Starting the plane's flight computer takes a long time, as in hours [1] because there are tons of automatic checks to be done. We're not talking restarting the DVD player. Also, when planes like these are at the gate, they run off the Ground Power Unit (GPU), basically a wall power cord. Because of this, the engines and other systems can be off, but the core flight computer is still on. If they could, airlines would never restart these. Remember, it needs to do things like reset all the laser ring gyro's, inertial reference units, etc because these are voting systems, so they need to figure out what truth is. As such, the boot process is understandably complex. [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/04/us-poland-dreamliner-idUSBREA130AT20140204 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/04/us-poland-dreamlin...

by xrstf 11y ago

ferrix 11y ago

Actually I am a bit surprised that somebody would want a plane to be powered on for such a long time. There is no way one could fly for that long anyway and they are regularly taken to service between long hauls.

51Cards 11y ago
Agreed... while this is a software design issue I too would be surprised to see a plane powered up for that long continuously. Needs to be fixed, yes... causing a lot of issues at the moment? Probably not.
userbinator 11y ago
I'm guessing these GCUs are like the ECUs in a car - even when "off" they're still powered and running in a standby mode. The fact that the AD contains messages such as "batteries do not need to be disconnected" and that this "electrical power deactivation" takes approximately an hour of work suggests something needs to be gotten at, unplugged, and replugged.
- ubernostrum 11y ago
  Boeing 787 aircraft have been in service for longer than 248 days (entry into commercial airline service was in 2011), with zero confirmed encounters with the bug in the wild. This suggests that your "always on even when off" theory does not hold up.
  - sitkack 11y ago
    You know this how? Could it be that these reboots are happening on the ground? I also have in my hand zero confirmed enounters, that doesn't prove anything.
    - ubernostrum 11y ago
      Well, A) sensationalistic news would have sensationalized the hell out of any live incident, in the air or on the ground, and B) aircraft maintenance and utilization schedules being what they are, the likelihood of any 787 actually going 248 days continuously powered on is... technically not zero, but effectively indistinguishable from zero.
ghshephard 11y ago
I completely agree with you - on at least three of the dozen or so flights I've taken this year, when there was a problem with the passenger area (Audio in one case, WiFi in another, and finally my POWER connector in the third) - the flight attendants power cycled the entire system, which took about 15 minutes, and let me watch the Linux boot process on the back-of-seat console. My suspicion is the "Reboot" approach is pretty common to aviation systems. It wouldn't surprise me that many of the components are rebooted daily, and almost certainly on a weekly basis. 120+ days without a reboot sounds unlikely to me.
- userbinator 11y ago
  IFE and other "passenger amenities" are not considered critical-to-flight, and it definitely shows in their reliability (or lack thereof)... the avionics are designed to a much higher level of reliability.
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  Dittoing userbinator here. Avionics systems aren't generally treated so casually. DO-178B [0] has several levels of designations for criticality of systems. A is the highest. Essentially, if these fail, people will die. E is the lowest. If these fail, people are inconvenienced. Passenger AV systems, wifi, those are conveniences and are not held to a terribly high standard. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DO-178B http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DO-178B
- gkop 11y ago
  Jtsummers, userbinator: This 787 bug shuts down the generators which I understand provide only the AC power aboard the aircraft? How critical is this AC power?
  - twistedpair 11y ago
    B787 is a mostly electric airliner. There are far fewer hydrolic/cable operated systems than in previous planes. This is much safer since a explosion/leak/breach/clog in a hydrolic line won't take out an entire hydrolic system (most planes have 3 systems and fuse valves to mitigate this). However, since there are so many electricly operated systems, you really need power. The B787 as is No Bleed [1], so electrical power is also used to pressurize it [2]. Need Electric Power. [1] http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_4_07/article_02_1.html http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_4... [2] http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/218933/ http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/...
twistedpair 11y ago
Starting the plane's flight computer takes a long time, as in hours [1] because there are tons of automatic checks to be done. We're not talking restarting the DVD player. Also, when planes like these are at the gate, they run off the Ground Power Unit (GPU), basically a wall power cord. Because of this, the engines and other systems can be off, but the core flight computer is still on. If they could, airlines would never restart these. Remember, it needs to do things like reset all the laser ring gyro's, inertial reference units, etc because these are voting systems, so they need to figure out what truth is. As such, the boot process is understandably complex. [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/04/us-poland-dreamliner-idUSBREA130AT20140204 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/04/us-poland-dreamlin...