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Dropbox moves to Ireland for all customers outside of North America
- fred256 11y agoDoesn't say it moves the data, just that the legal entity providing service is the Irish subsidiary.
- Hobotron1 11y agoWouldn't the NSA be able to capture the data on the way out anyways?
- JoshTriplett 11y agoIt would be completely irresponsible to not encrypt the data in transit between data centers.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- scintill76 11y agoMaybe, but Gmail just started doing that a year ago: http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/20/5530072/google-encrypts-gmail-between-data-centers-to-keep-out-nsa http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/20/5530072/google-encrypts-gm...
- nullrouted 11y agoLets be fair here though. Google encrypted their PRIVATE data links based on the Snowden reports. Most people/companies would assume their p2p (point to point) links would be private, which to be honest is a fair assumption.
- skuhn 11y agoIt used to be a fair assumption, but now everyone has moved to encrypt any connectivity that goes outside of your physical oversight. Some people are paranoid enough to encrypt cross connects within the same facility that run between cages or floors, which is a sad state of affairs (but, in my opinion, sensible).
- Nevermark 11y agoYes, the sensible solution is for all communication to be encrypted as tools and services get up to speed on that. There is nothing to be gained by continually making judgement calls about which communications need to be secure and which don't. Like a lot of other technology, security needs to become pervasive so we can all take it for granted and worry about productive problems.
- colechristensen 11y agoAnd completely unreasonable not to suspect that the NSA can freely acquire those keys.
- JoshTriplett 11y agoOnly if they already have illicit access to the systems in question. In which case, considering Dropbox doesn't actually encrypt data at rest, it'd be much easier to get the data at the endpoints than in transit.
- skuhn 11y agoData is indeed encrypted on the storage systems (but not on client machines, if that's what you meant).
- JoshTriplett 11y agoIf it were only the end-user client systems, that'd be less of a concern, but the servers that run web frontends and similar also have full access.
- colechristensen 11y agoMy point is that there are a few assumptions you should make * A significant number of encryption technologies are broken or achievably breakable by the NSA * The NSA has already or could easily acquire encryption keys from any large tech company with a court order in one of the secret courts * The NSA has vast means for illicit access into systems and networks
- lwf 11y agohttps://www.dropbox.com/en/help/27 https://www.dropbox.com/en/help/27
- JoshTriplett 11y agoNot even remotely comforting. Talks all about how employees "are prohibited" from accessing your data, but that's unrelated to whether they're capable of doing so. I much prefer the privacy policies of more secure services, which tend to say things like "we do not have the ability to access your data under any circumstances".
- nosir33 11y agoIn terms of alternatives, AWS WorkDocs provides data storage in Ireland (and the US, Singapore and Australia).
- bigiain 11y agoBut since Amazon has offices in the USA, the NSA considers all AWS hosted data in whatever country the Amazon operated data center is located in, to be under US jurisdiction. I had a client who pulled all their (encrypted) data off the Ninefold cloud (Ninefold were at the time a fully Australian owned and hosted company) when they leased data center space and opened an office in CA – due to data sovereignty concerns.
- notatoad 11y agoIsn't Dropbox also entirely aws-hosted?
- bigiain 11y agoYep, and has exactly the same "company officers residing in the US" exposure to the NSA and any of the agencies fighting the war on [drugs|terrorism|pedos|political-rivals] getting closed or open court warrants with or without gag orders. In fact Dropbox is doubly at risk, law enforcement or national security could target either (or both) Dropbox themselves - go straight to Amazon to get access at hypervisor level to their entire infrastructure.
- tomkwok 11y agoThis post[0] in the Dropbox forum points out that Dropbox is suspected of the intention to minimize tax payable. [0]: https://www.dropboxforum.com/hc/communities/public/questions/203737955-Transfer-of-business-services-to-Ireland https://www.dropboxforum.com/hc/communities/public/questions...
- bigiain 11y agoRemember "tax minimization" is legal, prudent, and a fundamental duty of company officers in these times of "maximise shareholder value" being the primary and legally mandated goal of a corporation. "Tax evasion" is crossing over a not very well defined and continually shifting line - and is illegal. At the moment, at least from where I see the world here in Australia, all the "global tech giants" (and mining/resource ones too) are doing a significantly better job of navigating the shifting tax rules across various national tax jurisdictions to minimize their tax obligations - than the governments and bureaucracies are doing of collecting "fair" taxes from them. Our local popular press is full of stories of FaceBook/Google/Apple paying zero tax in Australia because they can structure their invoicing/payments to and from different parts of the same global corporate entity – in entirely legal ways that result in zero tax owing in Australia. I'd think less of Dropbox's senior management and advisor team if they weren't trying to take advantage of the same loopholes. It's "Modern Corporation 101" grade stuff - "Maximise shareholder value by whatever means won't put the company directors in jail. Don't talk about ethics or fairness or duty to society (except in the Marketing Department and advertising). Talk about duty to shareholders and what's close enough to technically legal that our lawyers will sign off on it."
- tocf 11y agoYou're exactly right. While we look at this stuff as despicable, because it really is, we can't blame the companies. Except ... we can, right? They're the ones who have manipulated the tax codes, right? They're practically writing the laws, right? Ultimately though, the politicians are the ones who are passing the laws. They're the ones who are being bribed, excuse me, funded, by corporations and the wealthy. To blame corporations for taking every advantage of the system, to manipulate it in whatever way possible, is silly. Capitalism rewards innovation. It rewards plugging the holes that cost money (and taxes can be quite a big hole). These can be great benefits to everyone to some extent, but they also eventually lead to buying out competitors which reduces competition, which can result in big, lazy companies who'd rather legislate than innovate - I'm looking at you, Cable Company and Telephone Company, or the Media conglomerates. That's what we have the world over. Maybe it's just me, but for me, the problem is our political system - it's not designed to withstand these corrupting forces. Some countries deal with it slightly better, but barely just. I like competitive capitalism. I like democracy, and even the idea of a representative democracy. But they don't play well together when you have the capitalists ultimately deciding who gets to represent the people, and then those representatives bending in every which way to make things easier for their funders. When you have a system that rewards bribery, or has in its place a revolving door between legislators and business, you're going to have these effects. The solution to this I think is really rather simple, but I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader.
- stirlo 11y agoThe clear point of this is not to protect from NSA/US Courts but to minimise tax. I'm not sure why they never setup out of Ireland in the first place, every other US company with international revenues has already. In addition unless Microsoft wins its appeal US courts have ruled that a US company eg: Dropbox can be forced to provide any data they have even if it is outside the US
- xnull2guest 11y agoRight. I mean, Condolezza Rice is on the board of Dropbox. If there's a company that is going to have pressure from shareholders to make data available to the government it's going to be Dropbox.
- mojuba 11y agoIf she doesn't work for the govt. anymore why would she do that?
- ProAm 11y agoMoney,
- bigiain 11y agoI doubt it - I'm reasonably sure 50% less or 1000% more money wouldn't make a substantial difference to her or her families way of life - she'd notice, but mostly in a "using dollars to keep score" kind of way. I'd suggest "ideology" is a much more powerful motivator here.
- PhasmaFelis 11y agoWhy wouldn't she do it? She's on record as saying that the government has the right to eavesdrop on any American citizen for any reason without a warrant. (http://www.drop-dropbox.com/surveillance.html http://www.drop-dropbox.com/surveillance.html) I haven't heard anything to suggest that she's changed her mind about that. If she practices what she preaches, there's no reason to think she would support attempts to make Dropbox secure against government surveillance. (When she joined Dropbox, there was a huge fooforaw over whether her actions under Bush during the Iraq War constituted war crimes. Honestly I felt like that was a red herring in this particular case--regardless of your feelings the war, it should be obvious that you don't want even partial control of your private documents going to a person who thinks that the government should be allowed to read your private documents.)
- skuhn 11y agoThe user data is absolutely not stored in Ireland.
- Nevermark 11y agoExactly, its up in the clouds. Seven miles up to avoid national legal issues.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- mp3geek 11y agoI wonder how this will affect speed and latiency if you're on the other side of the world (like NZ and Australia).
- bigiain 11y agoApart from that point that so far as I can tell, this is purely about what country code is used in a billing database record and it's tax implications, rather than any large scale network reconfiguration changes - but I doubt many people have a use case where the difference between 50ms or 300ms latency for Dropbox would make any difference at all. For most people I'm pretty sure the speed of "the last mile" is the fundamental limiting factor for their bandwidth.
- sergers 11y agoMy assumption they funneling money through Ireland through knowledge based capital tax breaks, after Ireland said they abolishing double Irish last year which many large fortune 50 companies utilized in past
- fuddle 11y agoIts strange that they don't give a reason for the move.
- jacquesm 11y agoTwitter did the same a few days ago as announced on their blog. https://support.twitter.com/articles/20172527# https://support.twitter.com/articles/20172527#
- mikeyb555 11y agoTitle is wrong, this is just a tax minimization move and has nothing to do with data housing.
- s_dev 11y agoIreland often gets a lot of flak from the US and the EU about being a "tax haven" with similarities drawn to the Isle of Man or the Cayman Islands. Irelands corporation tax rate is 12.5%, in the US the rate is often cited as 30% and similarly with France and Germany. However the "effective" corporate tax rate is actually lower than Irelands in many cases because there are many write offs and loop holes that mean companies rarely pay 30% and much closer to 8%. These writes offs and loop holes aren't really as available in Ireland and subsequently mean Irelands tax scheme is more transparent in the sense the perceived value is closer to the actual value. It's just a competitive and transparent tax policy that has been in place since 1960's. A lot of people here and in the media will use this as evidence that Ireland is a tax haven. I'll concede measures like the Double Irish were a step too far -- a 12.5% rate isn't. If Dropbox really wanted to I'm sure they could find plenty of write offs in the UK like Starbucks did. There might be other factors influencing this decision too though e.g. avoiding the UK because a Brexit is on the table. Ireland has a better climate for data centres compared to say the Cayman Islands.
- mikeyb555 11y agoThere is some good data on this http://www.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/pc/blog/countryefftaxrates2015.xls http://www.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/pc/blog/countryefftaxrate... By the way companies have 6 years to change their structure so the Double Irish still exists.
- dang 11y agoThanks. We took "data" out of the title. If anyone can suggest a more accurate title, we'll change it again.
- manigandham 11y agoNo data is moving at all, just a change in company to Ireland subsidiary.
- similanblu 11y agoGreat. Since there is no international tax-agreement between Ireland and my country, now my startup company has to start paying 7% VAT for Dropbox in their place. (In addition to 7% VAT we already pay for Facebook ads and Adobe Creative Cloud, which recently moved to Ireland too) Gee, if only Microsoft OneDrive would have a decent Linux client.
- Darragh_Hayes 11y agoAs an Irish person I'm happy about this. As others have already mentioned, we've got a massive number (relative to our country's size) of fortune tech companies setting up camp here for a number of reasons. 12.5℅ corporation tax. We're not a tax haven, our rate is just at a sweeter spot. This policy was introduced by an taoiseach (prime minister) Sean Lemass during the 60's to stimulate economic recovery from one of the worst recessions we ever faced. The goal was to attract foreign investment and in particular from American companies that wanted to get a foothold in Europe. This guy is sort of revered in Ireland and everyone that takes Junior Certificate History (ages 12-15ish) learns about him. He's a pretty interesting leader because he was almost singlehandedly responsible for developing our country into a modern, global economy through various policies, plans and schemes. European Law, I'm no expert in law but as far as I know our data protection laws are well established. Let's put it this way, our own government definitely isn't trying to keep track of your visits to the toilet. Although we're paranoid that the US probably is, or at least they want to! Climate - funnily enough our famously terrible weather has an upside. The cost of cooling a data centre is cheaper. Our country isn't incredibly cold but it never really gets hot here either. Temperatures throughout the year are relatively stable. As a CS student with only 1 year left to graduate I couldn't be happier with the 'mini tech bubble' we're experiencing. It's practically the only sector that's seeing significant growth and wage increases in the last few years. The economic crash in 2008 had a severe effect on the country as a whole. Fast forward to today - employment in software development, engineering and other related fields is being created quicker than they can find suitable candidates. I'm happy knowing that while so many other young people are being forced to immigrate, our tech sector is so saturated with jobs that CS grads like myself are being headhunted.
- angry_octet 11y agoI couldn't help thinking BIGGEST RSYNC EVER. And, what is the bandwidth of a 747-8 full of 4TB disk? (140,000kg/0.6kg = 233,333 disks, downrate to 200,000 for packaging, 800,000TB. Approx flight time 10h SFO-DUB, load/unload, say 15h; 86400s. ~9TB/s. So pretty fast.
- angry_octet 11y agoCome on, a down vote for trying to bring the conversation back to something technically interesting instead of angst about NSA snooping and tax avoidance? For shame, you should have your geek badge confiscated.
- lwf 11y agoWell, you'd also need to buy extra disks for all that; you wouldn't send your only copy on a plane, right? And then, oh doing integrity checking at the other end would suck.
- junto 11y agoI doubt this anything to do with privacy. I'm already in the process if moving to Spideroak.