12 ms·

On a brother’s suicide: ‘I wish I had never told him to go to counseling’

98 points by aburan28 12y ago

nailer 12y ago
Single sentence extract: > He goes to the counselling centre but instead of offering any help, they call my mom to come down and then at 5 p.m. that day, hold a meeting with a dean and five other staff where they promptly dismiss my brother from William and Mary and ban him from College grounds.
- snowy 12y ago
  Why was he dismissed and banned? Surly not for having suicidal thoughts. Did something else go on here that is been omitted? Did they see him as a threat to other students? If so you can't really blame them.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - baldfat 12y ago
    I worked in Student Life as a Resident Director. The power of Lawyer is extremely strong and the fear of litigation is very high. Our college handled this differently and perhaps it was due to my strong advocate since my brother took his own life when I was a kid. We required hospitalization for the hospital to evaluate and than we would work one on one to make sure they were following doctor's orders in terms of counseling and medications. This all had to be done secretly so that students privacy wasn't stolen and that students would know it was a safe place. As a Resident Director we would directly contact the professors and arrange a way for the student to make up their work and to complete the classes. usually the students would have a lot of abstinence and this would cause an issue, but we would always try our best and set up things in place for the next semester if need be and with financial assistance (AKA not charge them for the class credits a second time).
- andrey-p 12y ago
  That was the bit that really stood out for me. Even if one could argue that they sent him off in order to take a break and recover before continuing his studies, this > and ban him from College grounds is ridiculous.
  - eep_opp 12y ago
    I don't understand that part either. I wonder if the councilor saw a potential to not only harm himself but others and that's why it was included. I can understand the school not wanting to be the next stage for another tragedy similar to Virginia Tech. And had they not dismissed him and he continued on and something to that effect were to happen would we not see stories about friends and families of victims asking about why they would have allowed an obviously deeply disturbed person to remain on campus? Maybe the counselor thought (erroneously?) this particular problem was too big to handle?
    - derrida 12y ago
      > I can understand the school not wanting to be the next stage for another tragedy similar to Virginia Tech. How can you understand this that way? I can't. I can't understand it because I know lots of people with depression, and I've experienced it once myself, never once did anybody I know or myself or for that matter, a reported case, ever think "I know, lets go and kill a bunch of people." I don't understand it... The number of dehumanizing things that have been done in the name of "health and safety" is staggering. Life begins with birth and ends with death, use compassionate reasoning in between, there's always a rule or formalism to hide behind.
      - eep_opp 12y ago
        Well let's deconstruct my comment: 1: I don't get why they would bar him from campus. -Unless the councilor thought that he was also a danger to others. 2: If that was there view then I can understand why they would want to remove him. I’m saying that I agree but that maybe they (erroneously) saw something more than depression or something different from your situation. Given that what exactly is the issue?
- Red_Tarsius 12y ago
  My thoughts as well. The final response of the school to Cassie is also saddening and revealing of a culture devoid of any empathy.
  - erroneousfunk 12y ago
    I think that was perhaps the best William and Mary could do without commenting on that particular student's case at all, or revealing any personal information, which they wouldn't be allowed to do.
  - MrZongle2 12y ago
    Agreed. It read as if written by legal robots, far more interested in avoiding words that could possibly imply any sort of responsibility.
- kosma 12y ago
  How is this even legal? I can't even imagine this happening in Europe; you can't dismiss someone from school without legal basis. Is it different in America?
  - k-mcgrady 12y ago
    Isn't this how employment there works too?
    - lawl 12y ago
      Apart from there not beeing a single law for Europe... In theory yes, in practice it's easy to make something up, here it's mostly "company internal reasons", which they don't have to justify. The formal reason will never be that someone sucked at their job.
      - celticninja 12y ago
        well that is somewhat inaccurate, there are EU wide laws and regulations.
        digi_owl 12y ago
        Iirc, EU issue directives. But it is up the individual member nations to turn those into national laws and regulations.
  - pjc50 12y ago
    There have been a couple of cases of whistleblowers being fired on bogus mental health grounds from the EU itself. Although I can't remember names at the moment.
  - mox1 12y ago
    Are you saying that in Europe colleges cannot dismiss anyone without a "legal basis" (ie they have committed a crime?) If so that is crazy..Cheating on a test is not "illegal." There are a whole host of things that are "against school policy" but not illegal. I find this very hard to believe....
- justonepost 12y ago
  Couple of more sentences: Almost 40% of the students who access our services at the Counseling Center report having had suicidal thoughts. The vast majority of those students continue to be seen at the Counseling Center and remain in school. Likely there was something extremely dramatic about this case that made the college believe he was a clear threat to himself and/or others if he stayed at the college.
  - pluma 12y ago
    He was speaking to the Counseling Center, not the college administration. In what world is banning someone from college the right approach to handle someone with obvious mental issues disclosing his problems in a counseling center? If his situation was "more extreme", the first course of action should be to escalate the situation to more qualified, not the college administration (who are neither qualified nor relevant). You can still kick someone out after they're in professional treatment. It's extreme irresponsible to not just refuse treatment but actually measurably make their situation worse. You might as well hand them a razor and tell them "yes, you're right, take this and go kill yourself" while you're at it.
    - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
      >In what world is banning someone from college the right approach to handle someone with obvious mental issues disclosing his problems in a counseling center? Any potential threat of negative repercussions only serves to destroy trust between a potential client and any therapist. Imagine what would happen if people with AIDs had their info put into a public database (especially back when fear of the disease was much higher)? It would have destroyed not only the trust of those with or who might have AIDs, but of many people with other health concerns as well.
- smrtinsert 12y ago
  I read that and my jaw dropped. They should investigate legal options. I can't understand how they don't understand how that might push a student even closer to suicide - college is your world when you are in it.
- mcguire 12y ago
  On the one hand, it's possible the counsellor concluded that he was a threat to others at the College---an immediate threat, which would require an immediate response. On the other hand, assuming he went to the counselling center first thing in the morning, that's roughly nine hours minus travel time, scheduling, and all the other steps involved in this kind of decision. I find it difficult to believe that a counsellor met with him for more than an hour. Further: "My brother is then taken home and the next day starts at our local mental health facility. He voluntarily enters a residential program, which is very hard ordeal for both him and my parents. However, he does well and is released to out-patient status on Monday, March 30, 2010." The residential program released him after less than two weeks. I suspect they would not do so if they believed him to be a threat. So, why did the College initially deny him re-admittance?
  - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
    >On the one hand, it's possible the counsellor concluded that he was a threat to others at the College---an immediate threat, which would require an immediate response. And they may have protected the other students at the cost of selling out the integrity of therapy in general. Think of a judge, given the smoking gun needed to convict a murderer that was obtained by unconstitutional means. He must let the murderer go because, while releasing the murder introduces risks to the public, the risk of not upholding the Constitution is even greater. As it stands, I would no more advise someone to see a therapist than I would advise them to tell everything to a defense lawyer in a country where the defense lawyer tells everything to the prosecutor and it is all admissible in court.
baldfat 12y ago
Such a HORRIBLE TITLE. It was not to counseling at the College. The college threw him out of the college grounds with a meeting with a dean and 5 staff and the students mother. My brother killed himself 35 years ago last week. GO GET HELP! Go speak with someone and go to a doctor or counselor. I love my brother and miss him everyday, but suicide is the biggest middle finger to everyone you know and love. It hurts the people you never wanted to hurt. Please get help not just for yourself but for those who love you.
- AnDowNS 12y ago
  Yes, go get help. But, as with HR, school psychologists exist --at least in part-- to protect the school. Finding your own psychologist may help ensure that they are motivated by your best interests, not the schools.
  - emodendroket 12y ago
    That's probably prohibitively expensive for many students.
    - eli 12y ago
      There are free clinics most places and free hotlines everywhere.
  - baldfat 12y ago
    Check yourself into a hospital and get things started that way. The doctors, nurses and case workers will help you get everything setup for you and you will have the ability to get the required help right away. But don't go down that road alone. let someone in your life know you are having these problems and are getting help. Being alone on that journey is difficult. The big thing is taking that risk with being vulnerable with someone.
    - thaumaturgy 12y ago
      > Check yourself into a hospital and get things started that way. The doctors, nurses and case workers will help you get everything setup for you... I've had two different close family members admitted to a hospital for suicidal intentions. In both cases the treatment at the hospital made matters worse, not better. One was 5150'd (in the state of California a patient can be taken by force to a mental health facility and held there against their will for an unspecified period of time if they are determined to be a threat to themselves or others), the other was nearly 5150'd. They were heavily sedated and given a bed at one facility or the other, medicated further, and then released without follow-up. In both cases the takeaway for the people involved was that they never wanted to go through that again -- so next time (and there was a next time, and a time after...) they would hide it from other family members or threaten themselves or others if anyone contacted law enforcement or tried to take them to a hospital. "Go get help" is extraordinarily difficult to actually do. The help available is almost always more concerned about short-term liability instead of long-term health.
appleflaxen 12y ago
This title is terrible. The real point is that the policies of William and Mary might lack a certain degree of humanity, and that, as a human being, Ian Smith-Christmas was utterly unsupported by an institution whose mission is helping young adults develop into well-rounded individuals. After reading the reply from the VP of student affairs, I am fairly willing to believe it. Rather than acknowledge the core point of the narrative, the VP replies with "people are complicated; here are some numbers" that might or might not mean anything.
- phkahler 12y ago
  The author is trying not to place any blame on the school, but they clearly deserve some.
  - baldfat 12y ago
    The title makes it out that counseling he received was what harmed him making it appear that getting help was a bad idea.
    - phkahler 12y ago
      There's also some self-blame going on "I with I hadn't..."
- superuser2 12y ago
  William and Mary is not unique in this regard. A similar story from Yale circulated last year; this has happened to nearly a dozen people (that I know about) at UChicago. Expelling depressed students is a publicly nationwide "best practice" in higher ed administration apparently.
lasdfas 12y ago
I don't see how W&M did anything wrong here. It is very common for students to take time off because of mental health issues. Especially if he was at risk of committing suicide. I know several students at my college who were forced to take time off and it ultimately helped them. They didn't have to worry about the stress of school. The school didn't call to see how he was doing? I have never heard any school doing that. He was only out of school for less than 2 months. The last suggestion that he killed himself because he was not readmitted in a timely matter. Remember, de was admitted less than a month later. This wasn't some year long process. It is a very sad story and the sister is looking for someone to blame, but I see the school did nothing wrong here. The implication that you shouldn't seek college counseling for fear of taking time off is very dangerous. It is important for people to seek counseling as soon as they feel they need it.
- onion2k 12y ago
  The reaction of the college was all about covering themselves rather than helping a student. Banning someone from the college grounds is not helping them take time off - it's making sure nothing happens that you might be held responsible for. Legally and technically they might not have done anything "wrong", but morally and socially they couldn't have been farther from doing the right thing.
  - loopbit 12y ago
    For me, that final letter shows how little they care about their students and how all that process was about covering their asses.
  - lasdfas 12y ago
    If the student is at risk of suicide, there are times when they need to seek professional help away from school. He could be a danger to himself or others. I think you are making it black and white. "If the student wants to stay at school, let them." It is not as simple as that. Think about it from the other perspective. If he killed himself at school and they knew he had serious mental health issues, people would be way more up and arms. "The school did nothing!"
UK-AL 12y ago
A lot of things that seem like they should be helpful, are in-fact just ass covering for the organisation. HR, Health & Safety officers, etc
cmdrfred 12y ago
If we are going to be looking into what William and Mary clouda shoulda woulda done to prevent this isn't it only fair to do the same in regards to this individuals own family? I mean as this is written by a member of said family don't we need a counterpoint? Also with all the people saying that W&M are just 'covering their asses', do you believe that they should be held liable for the intentional actions of their adult students?
- Lorento 12y ago
  They probably would be held liable, hence why they immediately kicked him off campus. Their response isn't just covering their asses, they make no attempt to even justify their actions, nor to deny them. They only say how good they are and then blame the family!
  - cmdrfred 12y ago
    So if I get upset and kill myself because a women rejected me, it's her fault?
    - DanBC 12y ago
      If she has a duty of care towards you, and you ask her for help, and she says "no, I won't help you. In fact I'm going to ban you from talking to me" then yes, she might. But of course analogies are sub-optimal.
- mcherm 12y ago
  > as this is written by a member of said family don't we need a counterpoint? I overlooked it when I first read the article, but after the family member's story is a response by the vice president for student affairs. Read it to see their perspective. > with all the people saying that W&M are just 'covering their asses', do you believe that they should be held liable for the intentional actions of their adult students? I don't understand what you are saying here. I suspect that W&M's actions (like immediately banning the student from campus, and resisting having him return even after receiving a doctor's bill of good mental health) were motivated by "covering their asses". Of course I do not believe that W&M should be held liable for the actions of their students... nor have I seen anyone suggesting that. Did I misunderstand what you were trying to say?
arfliw 12y ago
I have a friend currently struggling hard with this. They know that going to the school for help is not an option for this exact reason. They are going to be looking out for the school first and the student second. That's really unfortunate because the school has everything in place to be able to help the most. I'm at a loss for how to help, beyond just being there as much as possible. They are doing all they can to get better, seeing a psychiatrist, taking medications etc -- but they are still having suicidal thoughts on a daily basis.
- Jtsummers 12y ago
  Be present for them. Just having a friend present in my life literally stopped me from ending it. In my case I remembered the feeling I had when a girlfriend had tried to kill herself a few days after a date with me. I didn't want to cause that pain to my friend. This gave me enough pause to get rid of my means of suicide and go get help. Be open with your friend, but don't pry. If they don't want to talk about something trying to force them to may only cause them to push you away. If you've had any issues (physical, mental) that you haven't discussed with them, considering opening up to them about it one day. If they know that you trust them with your issues, it may help them to talk more openly to you about theirs. This isn't 100%, it doesn't work for everyone, but finally having a close friend I felt I could confide in helped me turn myself around. I hope things work out for both of you. And please understand, whatever decision your friend makes is theirs. You can only help them so much.
  - arfliw 12y ago
    Thanks. >whatever decision your friend makes is theirs That's the hardest part. I know that logically but they are alive now. And I know there is a real chance they could wind up taking their own life at some point. I want to fucking prevent that from happening. It's a helpless feeling knowing that I can't. At least not with any degree of certainty.
im3w1l 12y ago
This will cause people to suffer in silence rather than seek help. Her brother may not even be the only casualty.
GolfyMcG 12y ago
I can recall several people from my own college experience who sound just like the brother in the article. They seemed happy on the surface but when in an intimate setting, reality came out. The intimate setting for us was our fraternity meetings where brothers would bring up that they were have personal problems. Frequently they would share a lot details. I think it was probably one of the best examples of a community coming together to help people without getting recognition and wasn't all just drinking and partying. Something I've always wondered though is where this stemmed from. I find it unusual that both children from this one family happened to have problems with depression. Perhaps it's a coincidence but I often times wonder if depression really stems from hardship or if it's something less complicated than that. Many of the people who talked about having mental health issues in our fraternity were VERY well off. In fact, between all the people I've known in my life to struggle with mental health the most common attribute I remember was having two parents that worked despite having the means for one of them to stay home. Perhaps my observations are entirely coincidental but it's always seemed that these people needed more attention than anything else. As a result, just having a place for people to talk openly was immensely valuable. Our university had something called "A Place to Talk" where they were trained to be active listeners and not give advice. It's hard to actively participate in conversation without expressing your opinion but that's what they did. I really think they saved lives and probably money on a regular basis.
- blt 12y ago
  I feel strongly that depression runs in families. a majority of my family has been depressed at one time despite no major hardships or tragedies. I don't know if it's genetic or based on learned attitudes, but the idea that you need a good reason to be depressed is completely wrong.
  - GolfyMcG 12y ago
    You seem to find the idea of finding a "good reason" to be depressed a bad thing. I disagree. A lot of the skepticism around depression (and most mental health problems) stems from a lack of concrete knowledge about the cause and effect. We should be striving to use science and objective reasoning to determine the real causes of depression otherwise we won't be able to (1) accurately determine who really needs help in a world of limited resources and (2) provide a real solution. We should try to be understanding in the meantime but we shouldn't just accept that anyone can be depressed if they say so.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
stegosaurus 12y ago
I don't think we're ever going to get to the bottom of mental illness until people in positions of power develop empathy. Firing someone, banning them from campus, chasing them for masses of debt, and so on and so forth are things that make people desperate. Until we can fix that, this is just going to happen again and again. And no, that doesn't mean living in some sort of happy joy world in which everyone keeps their job forever and passes all of their exams. It means living in a world in which failure doesn't mean complete loss of everything. A world which isn't 'get rich or die trying'.
emodendroket 12y ago
Well that's cruel and insane.
blt 12y ago
a person close to me had a similar experience in high school. she attempted suicide, and afterwards the school wanted nothing to do with her. they didn't let her go on the class trip. they say they are protecting the other students. clearly fear of litigation is a factor. but I also think the institutions don't want "people like that" in their culture. they would prefer to continue believing their institution is made of hard working positive people. lack of empathy is the ultimate cause.
cozzyd 12y ago
I wonder if there's academic literature on efficacy of university mental health policies. Not all families are supportive or understanding of mental illness and the ensuing disruption of someone's routine can easily make things worse. What good is a counseling service if there's a non-trivial chance that they'll tear what's left of your life fabric apart?

98 points by aburan28 12y ago

Single sentence extract: > He goes to the counselling centre but instead of offering any help, they call my mom to come down and then at 5 p.m. that day, hold a meeting with a dean and five other staff where they promptly dismiss my brother from William and Mary and ban him from College grounds.

snowy 12y ago
Why was he dismissed and banned? Surly not for having suicidal thoughts. Did something else go on here that is been omitted? Did they see him as a threat to other students? If so you can't really blame them.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- baldfat 12y ago
  I worked in Student Life as a Resident Director. The power of Lawyer is extremely strong and the fear of litigation is very high. Our college handled this differently and perhaps it was due to my strong advocate since my brother took his own life when I was a kid. We required hospitalization for the hospital to evaluate and than we would work one on one to make sure they were following doctor's orders in terms of counseling and medications. This all had to be done secretly so that students privacy wasn't stolen and that students would know it was a safe place. As a Resident Director we would directly contact the professors and arrange a way for the student to make up their work and to complete the classes. usually the students would have a lot of abstinence and this would cause an issue, but we would always try our best and set up things in place for the next semester if need be and with financial assistance (AKA not charge them for the class credits a second time).
andrey-p 12y ago
That was the bit that really stood out for me. Even if one could argue that they sent him off in order to take a break and recover before continuing his studies, this > and ban him from College grounds is ridiculous.
- eep_opp 12y ago
  I don't understand that part either. I wonder if the councilor saw a potential to not only harm himself but others and that's why it was included. I can understand the school not wanting to be the next stage for another tragedy similar to Virginia Tech. And had they not dismissed him and he continued on and something to that effect were to happen would we not see stories about friends and families of victims asking about why they would have allowed an obviously deeply disturbed person to remain on campus? Maybe the counselor thought (erroneously?) this particular problem was too big to handle?
  - derrida 12y ago
    > I can understand the school not wanting to be the next stage for another tragedy similar to Virginia Tech. How can you understand this that way? I can't. I can't understand it because I know lots of people with depression, and I've experienced it once myself, never once did anybody I know or myself or for that matter, a reported case, ever think "I know, lets go and kill a bunch of people." I don't understand it... The number of dehumanizing things that have been done in the name of "health and safety" is staggering. Life begins with birth and ends with death, use compassionate reasoning in between, there's always a rule or formalism to hide behind.
    - eep_opp 12y ago
      Well let's deconstruct my comment: 1: I don't get why they would bar him from campus. -Unless the councilor thought that he was also a danger to others. 2: If that was there view then I can understand why they would want to remove him. I’m saying that I agree but that maybe they (erroneously) saw something more than depression or something different from your situation. Given that what exactly is the issue?
Red_Tarsius 12y ago
My thoughts as well. The final response of the school to Cassie is also saddening and revealing of a culture devoid of any empathy.
- erroneousfunk 12y ago
  I think that was perhaps the best William and Mary could do without commenting on that particular student's case at all, or revealing any personal information, which they wouldn't be allowed to do.
- MrZongle2 12y ago
  Agreed. It read as if written by legal robots, far more interested in avoiding words that could possibly imply any sort of responsibility.
kosma 12y ago
How is this even legal? I can't even imagine this happening in Europe; you can't dismiss someone from school without legal basis. Is it different in America?
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  Isn't this how employment there works too?
  - lawl 12y ago
    Apart from there not beeing a single law for Europe... In theory yes, in practice it's easy to make something up, here it's mostly "company internal reasons", which they don't have to justify. The formal reason will never be that someone sucked at their job.
    - celticninja 12y ago
      well that is somewhat inaccurate, there are EU wide laws and regulations.
      - digi_owl 12y ago
        Iirc, EU issue directives. But it is up the individual member nations to turn those into national laws and regulations.
- pjc50 12y ago
  There have been a couple of cases of whistleblowers being fired on bogus mental health grounds from the EU itself. Although I can't remember names at the moment.
- mox1 12y ago
  Are you saying that in Europe colleges cannot dismiss anyone without a "legal basis" (ie they have committed a crime?) If so that is crazy..Cheating on a test is not "illegal." There are a whole host of things that are "against school policy" but not illegal. I find this very hard to believe....
justonepost 12y ago
Couple of more sentences: Almost 40% of the students who access our services at the Counseling Center report having had suicidal thoughts. The vast majority of those students continue to be seen at the Counseling Center and remain in school. Likely there was something extremely dramatic about this case that made the college believe he was a clear threat to himself and/or others if he stayed at the college.
- pluma 12y ago
  He was speaking to the Counseling Center, not the college administration. In what world is banning someone from college the right approach to handle someone with obvious mental issues disclosing his problems in a counseling center? If his situation was "more extreme", the first course of action should be to escalate the situation to more qualified, not the college administration (who are neither qualified nor relevant). You can still kick someone out after they're in professional treatment. It's extreme irresponsible to not just refuse treatment but actually measurably make their situation worse. You might as well hand them a razor and tell them "yes, you're right, take this and go kill yourself" while you're at it.
  - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
    >In what world is banning someone from college the right approach to handle someone with obvious mental issues disclosing his problems in a counseling center? Any potential threat of negative repercussions only serves to destroy trust between a potential client and any therapist. Imagine what would happen if people with AIDs had their info put into a public database (especially back when fear of the disease was much higher)? It would have destroyed not only the trust of those with or who might have AIDs, but of many people with other health concerns as well.
smrtinsert 12y ago
I read that and my jaw dropped. They should investigate legal options. I can't understand how they don't understand how that might push a student even closer to suicide - college is your world when you are in it.
mcguire 12y ago
On the one hand, it's possible the counsellor concluded that he was a threat to others at the College---an immediate threat, which would require an immediate response. On the other hand, assuming he went to the counselling center first thing in the morning, that's roughly nine hours minus travel time, scheduling, and all the other steps involved in this kind of decision. I find it difficult to believe that a counsellor met with him for more than an hour. Further: "My brother is then taken home and the next day starts at our local mental health facility. He voluntarily enters a residential program, which is very hard ordeal for both him and my parents. However, he does well and is released to out-patient status on Monday, March 30, 2010." The residential program released him after less than two weeks. I suspect they would not do so if they believed him to be a threat. So, why did the College initially deny him re-admittance?
- Lawtonfogle 12y ago
  >On the one hand, it's possible the counsellor concluded that he was a threat to others at the College---an immediate threat, which would require an immediate response. And they may have protected the other students at the cost of selling out the integrity of therapy in general. Think of a judge, given the smoking gun needed to convict a murderer that was obtained by unconstitutional means. He must let the murderer go because, while releasing the murder introduces risks to the public, the risk of not upholding the Constitution is even greater. As it stands, I would no more advise someone to see a therapist than I would advise them to tell everything to a defense lawyer in a country where the defense lawyer tells everything to the prosecutor and it is all admissible in court.

baldfat 12y ago

Such a HORRIBLE TITLE. It was not to counseling at the College. The college threw him out of the college grounds with a meeting with a dean and 5 staff and the students mother. My brother killed himself 35 years ago last week. GO GET HELP! Go speak with someone and go to a doctor or counselor. I love my brother and miss him everyday, but suicide is the biggest middle finger to everyone you know and love. It hurts the people you never wanted to hurt. Please get help not just for yourself but for those who love you.

AnDowNS 12y ago
Yes, go get help. But, as with HR, school psychologists exist --at least in part-- to protect the school. Finding your own psychologist may help ensure that they are motivated by your best interests, not the schools.
- emodendroket 12y ago
  That's probably prohibitively expensive for many students.
  - eli 12y ago
    There are free clinics most places and free hotlines everywhere.
- baldfat 12y ago
  Check yourself into a hospital and get things started that way. The doctors, nurses and case workers will help you get everything setup for you and you will have the ability to get the required help right away. But don't go down that road alone. let someone in your life know you are having these problems and are getting help. Being alone on that journey is difficult. The big thing is taking that risk with being vulnerable with someone.
  - thaumaturgy 12y ago
    > Check yourself into a hospital and get things started that way. The doctors, nurses and case workers will help you get everything setup for you... I've had two different close family members admitted to a hospital for suicidal intentions. In both cases the treatment at the hospital made matters worse, not better. One was 5150'd (in the state of California a patient can be taken by force to a mental health facility and held there against their will for an unspecified period of time if they are determined to be a threat to themselves or others), the other was nearly 5150'd. They were heavily sedated and given a bed at one facility or the other, medicated further, and then released without follow-up. In both cases the takeaway for the people involved was that they never wanted to go through that again -- so next time (and there was a next time, and a time after...) they would hide it from other family members or threaten themselves or others if anyone contacted law enforcement or tried to take them to a hospital. "Go get help" is extraordinarily difficult to actually do. The help available is almost always more concerned about short-term liability instead of long-term health.

appleflaxen 12y ago

This title is terrible. The real point is that the policies of William and Mary might lack a certain degree of humanity, and that, as a human being, Ian Smith-Christmas was utterly unsupported by an institution whose mission is helping young adults develop into well-rounded individuals. After reading the reply from the VP of student affairs, I am fairly willing to believe it. Rather than acknowledge the core point of the narrative, the VP replies with "people are complicated; here are some numbers" that might or might not mean anything.

phkahler 12y ago
The author is trying not to place any blame on the school, but they clearly deserve some.
- baldfat 12y ago
  The title makes it out that counseling he received was what harmed him making it appear that getting help was a bad idea.
  - phkahler 12y ago
    There's also some self-blame going on "I with I hadn't..."
superuser2 12y ago
William and Mary is not unique in this regard. A similar story from Yale circulated last year; this has happened to nearly a dozen people (that I know about) at UChicago. Expelling depressed students is a publicly nationwide "best practice" in higher ed administration apparently.

lasdfas 12y ago

I don't see how W&M did anything wrong here. It is very common for students to take time off because of mental health issues. Especially if he was at risk of committing suicide. I know several students at my college who were forced to take time off and it ultimately helped them. They didn't have to worry about the stress of school. The school didn't call to see how he was doing? I have never heard any school doing that. He was only out of school for less than 2 months. The last suggestion that he killed himself because he was not readmitted in a timely matter. Remember, de was admitted less than a month later. This wasn't some year long process. It is a very sad story and the sister is looking for someone to blame, but I see the school did nothing wrong here. The implication that you shouldn't seek college counseling for fear of taking time off is very dangerous. It is important for people to seek counseling as soon as they feel they need it.

onion2k 12y ago
The reaction of the college was all about covering themselves rather than helping a student. Banning someone from the college grounds is not helping them take time off - it's making sure nothing happens that you might be held responsible for. Legally and technically they might not have done anything "wrong", but morally and socially they couldn't have been farther from doing the right thing.
- loopbit 12y ago
  For me, that final letter shows how little they care about their students and how all that process was about covering their asses.
- lasdfas 12y ago
  If the student is at risk of suicide, there are times when they need to seek professional help away from school. He could be a danger to himself or others. I think you are making it black and white. "If the student wants to stay at school, let them." It is not as simple as that. Think about it from the other perspective. If he killed himself at school and they knew he had serious mental health issues, people would be way more up and arms. "The school did nothing!"

UK-AL 12y ago

A lot of things that seem like they should be helpful, are in-fact just ass covering for the organisation. HR, Health & Safety officers, etc

cmdrfred 12y ago

If we are going to be looking into what William and Mary clouda shoulda woulda done to prevent this isn't it only fair to do the same in regards to this individuals own family? I mean as this is written by a member of said family don't we need a counterpoint? Also with all the people saying that W&M are just 'covering their asses', do you believe that they should be held liable for the intentional actions of their adult students?

Lorento 12y ago
They probably would be held liable, hence why they immediately kicked him off campus. Their response isn't just covering their asses, they make no attempt to even justify their actions, nor to deny them. They only say how good they are and then blame the family!
- cmdrfred 12y ago
  So if I get upset and kill myself because a women rejected me, it's her fault?
  - DanBC 12y ago
    If she has a duty of care towards you, and you ask her for help, and she says "no, I won't help you. In fact I'm going to ban you from talking to me" then yes, she might. But of course analogies are sub-optimal.
mcherm 12y ago
> as this is written by a member of said family don't we need a counterpoint? I overlooked it when I first read the article, but after the family member's story is a response by the vice president for student affairs. Read it to see their perspective. > with all the people saying that W&M are just 'covering their asses', do you believe that they should be held liable for the intentional actions of their adult students? I don't understand what you are saying here. I suspect that W&M's actions (like immediately banning the student from campus, and resisting having him return even after receiving a doctor's bill of good mental health) were motivated by "covering their asses". Of course I do not believe that W&M should be held liable for the actions of their students... nor have I seen anyone suggesting that. Did I misunderstand what you were trying to say?

arfliw 12y ago

I have a friend currently struggling hard with this. They know that going to the school for help is not an option for this exact reason. They are going to be looking out for the school first and the student second. That's really unfortunate because the school has everything in place to be able to help the most. I'm at a loss for how to help, beyond just being there as much as possible. They are doing all they can to get better, seeing a psychiatrist, taking medications etc -- but they are still having suicidal thoughts on a daily basis.

Jtsummers 12y ago
Be present for them. Just having a friend present in my life literally stopped me from ending it. In my case I remembered the feeling I had when a girlfriend had tried to kill herself a few days after a date with me. I didn't want to cause that pain to my friend. This gave me enough pause to get rid of my means of suicide and go get help. Be open with your friend, but don't pry. If they don't want to talk about something trying to force them to may only cause them to push you away. If you've had any issues (physical, mental) that you haven't discussed with them, considering opening up to them about it one day. If they know that you trust them with your issues, it may help them to talk more openly to you about theirs. This isn't 100%, it doesn't work for everyone, but finally having a close friend I felt I could confide in helped me turn myself around. I hope things work out for both of you. And please understand, whatever decision your friend makes is theirs. You can only help them so much.
- arfliw 12y ago
  Thanks. >whatever decision your friend makes is theirs That's the hardest part. I know that logically but they are alive now. And I know there is a real chance they could wind up taking their own life at some point. I want to fucking prevent that from happening. It's a helpless feeling knowing that I can't. At least not with any degree of certainty.

im3w1l 12y ago

This will cause people to suffer in silence rather than seek help. Her brother may not even be the only casualty.

GolfyMcG 12y ago

I can recall several people from my own college experience who sound just like the brother in the article. They seemed happy on the surface but when in an intimate setting, reality came out. The intimate setting for us was our fraternity meetings where brothers would bring up that they were have personal problems. Frequently they would share a lot details. I think it was probably one of the best examples of a community coming together to help people without getting recognition and wasn't all just drinking and partying. Something I've always wondered though is where this stemmed from. I find it unusual that both children from this one family happened to have problems with depression. Perhaps it's a coincidence but I often times wonder if depression really stems from hardship or if it's something less complicated than that. Many of the people who talked about having mental health issues in our fraternity were VERY well off. In fact, between all the people I've known in my life to struggle with mental health the most common attribute I remember was having two parents that worked despite having the means for one of them to stay home. Perhaps my observations are entirely coincidental but it's always seemed that these people needed more attention than anything else. As a result, just having a place for people to talk openly was immensely valuable. Our university had something called "A Place to Talk" where they were trained to be active listeners and not give advice. It's hard to actively participate in conversation without expressing your opinion but that's what they did. I really think they saved lives and probably money on a regular basis.

blt 12y ago
I feel strongly that depression runs in families. a majority of my family has been depressed at one time despite no major hardships or tragedies. I don't know if it's genetic or based on learned attitudes, but the idea that you need a good reason to be depressed is completely wrong.
- GolfyMcG 12y ago
  You seem to find the idea of finding a "good reason" to be depressed a bad thing. I disagree. A lot of the skepticism around depression (and most mental health problems) stems from a lack of concrete knowledge about the cause and effect. We should be striving to use science and objective reasoning to determine the real causes of depression otherwise we won't be able to (1) accurately determine who really needs help in a world of limited resources and (2) provide a real solution. We should try to be understanding in the meantime but we shouldn't just accept that anyone can be depressed if they say so.

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stegosaurus 12y ago

I don't think we're ever going to get to the bottom of mental illness until people in positions of power develop empathy. Firing someone, banning them from campus, chasing them for masses of debt, and so on and so forth are things that make people desperate. Until we can fix that, this is just going to happen again and again. And no, that doesn't mean living in some sort of happy joy world in which everyone keeps their job forever and passes all of their exams. It means living in a world in which failure doesn't mean complete loss of everything. A world which isn't 'get rich or die trying'.

emodendroket 12y ago

Well that's cruel and insane.

blt 12y ago

a person close to me had a similar experience in high school. she attempted suicide, and afterwards the school wanted nothing to do with her. they didn't let her go on the class trip. they say they are protecting the other students. clearly fear of litigation is a factor. but I also think the institutions don't want "people like that" in their culture. they would prefer to continue believing their institution is made of hard working positive people. lack of empathy is the ultimate cause.

cozzyd 12y ago

I wonder if there's academic literature on efficacy of university mental health policies. Not all families are supportive or understanding of mental illness and the ensuing disruption of someone's routine can easily make things worse. What good is a counseling service if there's a non-trivial chance that they'll tear what's left of your life fabric apart?