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I have homeschooled my kids for four years now, and I think this article does a great job at dispelling common myths. The "socialization" myth is the biggest, b

I have homeschooled my kids for four years now, and I think this article does a great job at dispelling common myths. The "socialization" myth is the biggest, but if you look at homeschool teenagers, they are much more well socialized in interacting with adults in the real world. One point I would have liked to have seen: the number of homeschool parents who are former teachers. More than half of our homeschool friends are former teachers. This means these parents worked in the public school system, and when it came time to send there kids decided "nope, I'm not sending my kids through that system". As for startup ideas: I want MOOC aimed at younger kids. Right now the closest thing we have is Khan Academy, and it's pretty good, but a MOOC on a specific subject, with a series of videos, and questions, and interactive activities would be a big help.

AnimalMuppet 11y ago
Former teachers who homeschool their kids are like canaries in the coal mine. As for socialization: The best line I have heard is, "When we worry about our kids missing out on socialization, we grab them, drag them into the bathroom, and beat them up for their lunch money." That is: Yeah, kids in public school wind up having shared experiences with other such kids. The problem is that so many of those shared experiences are bad.
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  >The problem is that so many of those shared experiences are bad. // A simple [or simplistic] answer to that is that bad experiences as well as good serve to educate; perhaps better to learn to give up your lunch money to save a beating so you know to give up your wallet to save being shot at a later date?? Generally though I agree that the socialisation objection to non-school learning is specious. You can be as poorly educated on useful social situations if you're school-based. The non-school educated kids I know are all part of some semi-organised groups that mean they socialise with kids and adults over a broad spectrum of ages (though mainly women at the groups, just like primary schools here in the UK). Now schools can do something about that to some extent - my kid's school fosters relationships across the ages of children present in the school, one of its better ambitions IMO. Bullying is an interesting issue; there are bullies in the world and at a sub-criminal level there's often nowhere to go to fix your interactions with them other than your own resourcefulness, something which can be usefully informed, I feel, by bad experiences in school. Of course just being educated otherwise than at school doesn't mean you can't be bullied, just not in school!
- juliangregorian 11y ago
  That line about beating up your kids was pretty much my parents' reasoning for not putting us in school (I was homeschooled my entire life), they both had negative experiences in school. But you pretty much have to eat a certain amount of shit your whole life in a working environment. I've been floundering massively as an adult because I was completely unprepared for it.
learc83 11y ago
School is so different from any other environment you'll encounter as an adult that I can't really see how learning "socialization" there is beneficial? Maybe if you plan on doing time in prison? (I'm only half joking) The only time I really experienced a similar environment as an adult was my first job during college at a retail store. As to your point about former teachers. My mom, who's a former teacher, decided to home school's my much younger sister last year. She's been much happier and more productive since then. She still spends time with other kids her age during archery practice, reading club etc... However, she actually has time to read books that she likes after school instead of spending 2 hours a night on homework. She was literally spending almost 2 hours a night on homework in elementary school. The amount of stress her teachers put on her to perform on standardized tests was obscene.
- brc 11y ago
  Obligatory.... http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html "And that, I think, is the root of the problem. Nerds serve two masters. They want to be popular, certainly, but they want even more to be smart. And popularity is not something you can do in your spare time, not in the fiercely competitive environment of an American secondary school. Alberti, arguably the archetype of the Renaissance Man, writes that "no art, however minor, demands less than total dedication if you want to excel in it." I wonder if anyone in the world works harder at anything than American school kids work at popularity. Navy SEALs and neurosurgery residents seem slackers by comparison. They occasionally take vacations; some even have hobbies. An American teenager may work at being popular every waking hour, 365 days a year." And... "Public school teachers are in much the same position as prison wardens. Wardens' main concern is to keep the prisoners on the premises. They also need to keep them fed, and as far as possible prevent them from killing one another. Beyond that, they want to have as little to do with the prisoners as possible, so they leave them to create whatever social organization they want. From what I've read, the society that the prisoners create is warped, savage, and pervasive, and it is no fun to be at the bottom of it. In outline, it was the same at the schools I went to. The most important thing was to stay on the premises. While there, the authorities fed you, prevented overt violence, and made some effort to teach you something. But beyond that they didn't want to have too much to do with the kids. Like prison wardens, the teachers mostly left us to ourselves. And, like prisoners, the culture we created was barbaric." A lot of parents get their kids involved in activities which aren't necessarily for the good of the child except to minimise e chances of falling to the bottom of the popularity ladder. A ton of effort and money is spent trying to fit in at school - and as most of us recall - it all simply vanished the minute you walk out the high school gates, in the same way a prisoners society is irrelevant the moment they are released back into the real world. It really is madness.
jgord 11y ago
You may enjoy ArtOfProblemSolving.com also, I highly recommend both the books and videos. It has MOOC-ish aspects, so might be an interesting comparison. [ I home-schooled my 11yo for 3 years ]
pbhjpbhj 11y ago
KA recently moved towards what seems like a far more game-ified system. Personally - in light of recent research - I want to down play the competitive and game-like scenarios and encourage an attitude of learning being its own reward of being fulfilling in itself. Being able to chart progress towards one's goals is good but following a course of learning motivated by gaining imaginary points seems like steering in the wrong direction. Do you like the route that KA have taken?
lukethomas 11y ago
As a former homeschooler, "socialization" problems can exist, but can also easily be overcome. The x-factor is parental involvement. For example, in elementary school, I would go to local public school for art and phys-ed classes in addition to coursework at home. I knew most of the kids at school, but I would spend half as much time sitting at a desk, leaving the afternoons to explore/learn whatever I wanted. In high school, I would spend mornings taking classes at home, then go to the local university and earn dual-credits (high school + college), then go to a vocational technical school for the afternoon, and then go to sports practice at the local public high school. While peers would waste hours in study hall, I was spending my time at the local bookstore reading and learning how to code. I'm one of 4 kids, and every one of us will have graduated high school with 20+ college credits. I also fully plan on homeschooling my kids in the future.
juliangregorian 11y ago
Well, as a data point, I was homeschooled my entire life and I hated it. There has never been any doubt in my mind that I was shortchanged socially and academically. I struggle to relate to people and have no real friends. I also wasn't qualified to get into schools that I know I could have done the work at - since mercifully the tech skills I've taught myself allowed me to have a career, I've managed to work alongside grads from Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley. I would never, ever subject my own kids if I ever have any to such an experience.

AnimalMuppet 11y ago

Former teachers who homeschool their kids are like canaries in the coal mine. As for socialization: The best line I have heard is, "When we worry about our kids missing out on socialization, we grab them, drag them into the bathroom, and beat them up for their lunch money." That is: Yeah, kids in public school wind up having shared experiences with other such kids. The problem is that so many of those shared experiences are bad.

pbhjpbhj 11y ago
>The problem is that so many of those shared experiences are bad. // A simple [or simplistic] answer to that is that bad experiences as well as good serve to educate; perhaps better to learn to give up your lunch money to save a beating so you know to give up your wallet to save being shot at a later date?? Generally though I agree that the socialisation objection to non-school learning is specious. You can be as poorly educated on useful social situations if you're school-based. The non-school educated kids I know are all part of some semi-organised groups that mean they socialise with kids and adults over a broad spectrum of ages (though mainly women at the groups, just like primary schools here in the UK). Now schools can do something about that to some extent - my kid's school fosters relationships across the ages of children present in the school, one of its better ambitions IMO. Bullying is an interesting issue; there are bullies in the world and at a sub-criminal level there's often nowhere to go to fix your interactions with them other than your own resourcefulness, something which can be usefully informed, I feel, by bad experiences in school. Of course just being educated otherwise than at school doesn't mean you can't be bullied, just not in school!
juliangregorian 11y ago
That line about beating up your kids was pretty much my parents' reasoning for not putting us in school (I was homeschooled my entire life), they both had negative experiences in school. But you pretty much have to eat a certain amount of shit your whole life in a working environment. I've been floundering massively as an adult because I was completely unprepared for it.

learc83 11y ago

School is so different from any other environment you'll encounter as an adult that I can't really see how learning "socialization" there is beneficial? Maybe if you plan on doing time in prison? (I'm only half joking) The only time I really experienced a similar environment as an adult was my first job during college at a retail store. As to your point about former teachers. My mom, who's a former teacher, decided to home school's my much younger sister last year. She's been much happier and more productive since then. She still spends time with other kids her age during archery practice, reading club etc... However, she actually has time to read books that she likes after school instead of spending 2 hours a night on homework. She was literally spending almost 2 hours a night on homework in elementary school. The amount of stress her teachers put on her to perform on standardized tests was obscene.

brc 11y ago
Obligatory.... http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html "And that, I think, is the root of the problem. Nerds serve two masters. They want to be popular, certainly, but they want even more to be smart. And popularity is not something you can do in your spare time, not in the fiercely competitive environment of an American secondary school. Alberti, arguably the archetype of the Renaissance Man, writes that "no art, however minor, demands less than total dedication if you want to excel in it." I wonder if anyone in the world works harder at anything than American school kids work at popularity. Navy SEALs and neurosurgery residents seem slackers by comparison. They occasionally take vacations; some even have hobbies. An American teenager may work at being popular every waking hour, 365 days a year." And... "Public school teachers are in much the same position as prison wardens. Wardens' main concern is to keep the prisoners on the premises. They also need to keep them fed, and as far as possible prevent them from killing one another. Beyond that, they want to have as little to do with the prisoners as possible, so they leave them to create whatever social organization they want. From what I've read, the society that the prisoners create is warped, savage, and pervasive, and it is no fun to be at the bottom of it. In outline, it was the same at the schools I went to. The most important thing was to stay on the premises. While there, the authorities fed you, prevented overt violence, and made some effort to teach you something. But beyond that they didn't want to have too much to do with the kids. Like prison wardens, the teachers mostly left us to ourselves. And, like prisoners, the culture we created was barbaric." A lot of parents get their kids involved in activities which aren't necessarily for the good of the child except to minimise e chances of falling to the bottom of the popularity ladder. A ton of effort and money is spent trying to fit in at school - and as most of us recall - it all simply vanished the minute you walk out the high school gates, in the same way a prisoners society is irrelevant the moment they are released back into the real world. It really is madness.

jgord 11y ago

You may enjoy ArtOfProblemSolving.com also, I highly recommend both the books and videos. It has MOOC-ish aspects, so might be an interesting comparison. [ I home-schooled my 11yo for 3 years ]

pbhjpbhj 11y ago

KA recently moved towards what seems like a far more game-ified system. Personally - in light of recent research - I want to down play the competitive and game-like scenarios and encourage an attitude of learning being its own reward of being fulfilling in itself. Being able to chart progress towards one's goals is good but following a course of learning motivated by gaining imaginary points seems like steering in the wrong direction. Do you like the route that KA have taken?

lukethomas 11y ago

As a former homeschooler, "socialization" problems can exist, but can also easily be overcome. The x-factor is parental involvement. For example, in elementary school, I would go to local public school for art and phys-ed classes in addition to coursework at home. I knew most of the kids at school, but I would spend half as much time sitting at a desk, leaving the afternoons to explore/learn whatever I wanted. In high school, I would spend mornings taking classes at home, then go to the local university and earn dual-credits (high school + college), then go to a vocational technical school for the afternoon, and then go to sports practice at the local public high school. While peers would waste hours in study hall, I was spending my time at the local bookstore reading and learning how to code. I'm one of 4 kids, and every one of us will have graduated high school with 20+ college credits. I also fully plan on homeschooling my kids in the future.

juliangregorian 11y ago

Well, as a data point, I was homeschooled my entire life and I hated it. There has never been any doubt in my mind that I was shortchanged socially and academically. I struggle to relate to people and have no real friends. I also wasn't qualified to get into schools that I know I could have done the work at - since mercifully the tech skills I've taught myself allowed me to have a career, I've managed to work alongside grads from Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley. I would never, ever subject my own kids if I ever have any to such an experience.