5 ms·

Next step: Python as an operating system. Like Chrome OS or Firefox OS, just with Python instead of a web engine. I'm a big enough Python fan that the idea real

by amyjess 12y ago

Next step: Python as an operating system. Like Chrome OS or Firefox OS, just with Python instead of a web engine. I'm a big enough Python fan that the idea really intrigues me. (also, everytime I see an LWN article here, I keep meaning to subscribe, but I mostly read HN at work, and I usually forget by the time I get home... I feel really bad about that)

Macha 12y ago
That would be interesting. This isn't quite freestanding Python, in that it's running on Grub so there is a lower layer, but it's still cool despite that.
- amyjess 12y ago
  Well, even Chrome OS and Firefox OS don't have their own kernels; they run on top of Linux. If you were to build a Python OS, you'd probably start by writing PID 1 in Python. It would be a Python init, starting services written in Python, running gettys written in Python, and you'd log into a shell written in Python. Hmm... I can actually see myself writing an init system in Python... (hell, I did exactly that at my last company.... I'd have to rewrite it from scratch, but that's no big deal...) Great, I think I've found a new rabbit hole.
  - voltagex_ 12y ago
    Message me if you start this!
    - pygy_ 12y ago
      https://github.com/justincormack/ljsyscall https://github.com/justincormack/ljsyscall is just that, but for Lua. FFI to the kernel on Linux, NetBSD Rump kernels and even bare on Xen.
  - e12e 12y ago
    I wonder how much tweaking supervisord[1] would need to be suitable as a init replacement/for running as PID 1? Incidentally, I also came across [2] -- which I wasn't aware of. [1] http://supervisord.org/ http://supervisord.org/ [2] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3143/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3143/ https://pypi.python.org/pypi/python-daemon https://pypi.python.org/pypi/python-daemon
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Every OS ever had a bootloader of some sort as far as I'm aware, in some cases you had to toggle them in through the front panel but I don't know of any OS that did not have a bootstrapping stage prepended.
  - Macha 12y ago
    The bootloader normally hands over the OS once it starts however, it doesn't continue running and acting as an interface to the hardware.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      There's the bootloader, there's the bios and there is the operating system. It's perfectly legal to do bios calls from a running operating system (though there will be a price to pay for sure). The bootloader is usually discarded after the boot. The bios doesn't 'run' in any way either until you call it, think of it as a library that you can call.
mixmastamyk 12y ago
> I usually forget by the time I get home Send yourself email reminders.
- seanp2k2 12y ago
  I really like Wunderlist. In the past few months, they seem to have fixed their syncing issues, so mobile and desktop are pretty seamless now. I keep tons of ideas in Wunderlist, and the search works pretty well if I just brain-dump some keywords into the todo item. I also made a thing to suck all the Github repos you star into Wunderlist with their descriptions, since I always want to find something I starred in the past, and I've found Github's search lacking in this regard: https://github.com/ip2k/wunder-star https://github.com/ip2k/wunder-star
- e12e 12y ago
  Or just use "at"[1] and "mail" (assuming you have access to a computer that is connected and on after you leave for work): $ at 8pm <<END > echo "Don't forget to subscribe to lwn!" \ > | mail -s "LWN reminder" personal-mail@example.com > END [1] http://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.task-scheduling-cron-atd.html http://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.task-scheduli...
striking 12y ago
Lisp Machines, except in 2015. The beautiful phoenix returns.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
fzzzy 12y ago
Site's down now, but: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-announce-list/2004-July/003220.html https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-announce-list/2004-...
- voltagex_ 12y ago
  Anyone want to take a stab at running it in QEMU? http://uuu.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/uuu/ http://uuu.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/uuu/ Edit: http://dl.sourceforge.net/project/uuu/Existence/2003-09-21/existence-2003-09-22.diskimage.bz2 http://dl.sourceforge.net/project/uuu/Existence/2003-09-21/e... should boot with qemu-system-i386
JoshTriplett 12y ago
> (also, everytime I see an LWN article here, I keep meaning to subscribe, but I mostly read HN at work, and I usually forget by the time I get home... I feel really bad about that) If you work anywhere even remotely related to Open Source, I'd recommend getting your employer to get a corporate subscription. It's one of the single most valuable news sources I read; it summarizes LKML and numerous other first-hand sources, as well as many conferences, summits, and other in-person events.
friendzis 12y ago
Next step: Python on bare metal ARM targets. Imagine loading Python interpreter to an uC, quickly hacking together some scripts and happily running some DIY project. `sys` and especially `os` packages are out, maybe some high level features and something clever has to be done about interrupts, but that would be totally awesome
- ul5255 12y ago
  That is already available: https://micropython.org https://micropython.org I have the PyBoard but one can get it running on ST Discovery boards as well.
pjc50 12y ago
Really would have to do something about the GIL in that case unless you want to be restricted to one core - or run several independent interpreters NUMA-style.
- JoshTriplett 12y ago
  Yeah, the GIL is the biggest reason we haven't tried to run any Python code on non-boot CPUs; we just run tiny C functions that return information to the boot CPU.
mahouse 12y ago
Or a web engine made in Python. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotJava https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotJava

by amyjess 12y ago

Macha 12y ago

That would be interesting. This isn't quite freestanding Python, in that it's running on Grub so there is a lower layer, but it's still cool despite that.

amyjess 12y ago
Well, even Chrome OS and Firefox OS don't have their own kernels; they run on top of Linux. If you were to build a Python OS, you'd probably start by writing PID 1 in Python. It would be a Python init, starting services written in Python, running gettys written in Python, and you'd log into a shell written in Python. Hmm... I can actually see myself writing an init system in Python... (hell, I did exactly that at my last company.... I'd have to rewrite it from scratch, but that's no big deal...) Great, I think I've found a new rabbit hole.
- voltagex_ 12y ago
  Message me if you start this!
  - pygy_ 12y ago
    https://github.com/justincormack/ljsyscall https://github.com/justincormack/ljsyscall is just that, but for Lua. FFI to the kernel on Linux, NetBSD Rump kernels and even bare on Xen.
- e12e 12y ago
  I wonder how much tweaking supervisord[1] would need to be suitable as a init replacement/for running as PID 1? Incidentally, I also came across [2] -- which I wasn't aware of. [1] http://supervisord.org/ http://supervisord.org/ [2] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3143/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3143/ https://pypi.python.org/pypi/python-daemon https://pypi.python.org/pypi/python-daemon
jacquesm 12y ago
Every OS ever had a bootloader of some sort as far as I'm aware, in some cases you had to toggle them in through the front panel but I don't know of any OS that did not have a bootstrapping stage prepended.
- Macha 12y ago
  The bootloader normally hands over the OS once it starts however, it doesn't continue running and acting as an interface to the hardware.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    There's the bootloader, there's the bios and there is the operating system. It's perfectly legal to do bios calls from a running operating system (though there will be a price to pay for sure). The bootloader is usually discarded after the boot. The bios doesn't 'run' in any way either until you call it, think of it as a library that you can call.

mixmastamyk 12y ago

> I usually forget by the time I get home Send yourself email reminders.

seanp2k2 12y ago
I really like Wunderlist. In the past few months, they seem to have fixed their syncing issues, so mobile and desktop are pretty seamless now. I keep tons of ideas in Wunderlist, and the search works pretty well if I just brain-dump some keywords into the todo item. I also made a thing to suck all the Github repos you star into Wunderlist with their descriptions, since I always want to find something I starred in the past, and I've found Github's search lacking in this regard: https://github.com/ip2k/wunder-star https://github.com/ip2k/wunder-star
e12e 12y ago
Or just use "at"[1] and "mail" (assuming you have access to a computer that is connected and on after you leave for work): $ at 8pm <<END > echo "Don't forget to subscribe to lwn!" \ > | mail -s "LWN reminder" personal-mail@example.com > END [1] http://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.task-scheduling-cron-atd.html http://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.task-scheduli...

striking 12y ago

Lisp Machines, except in 2015. The beautiful phoenix returns.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

fzzzy 12y ago

Site's down now, but: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-announce-list/2004-July/003220.html https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-announce-list/2004-...

voltagex_ 12y ago
Anyone want to take a stab at running it in QEMU? http://uuu.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/uuu/ http://uuu.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/uuu/ Edit: http://dl.sourceforge.net/project/uuu/Existence/2003-09-21/existence-2003-09-22.diskimage.bz2 http://dl.sourceforge.net/project/uuu/Existence/2003-09-21/e... should boot with qemu-system-i386

JoshTriplett 12y ago

> (also, everytime I see an LWN article here, I keep meaning to subscribe, but I mostly read HN at work, and I usually forget by the time I get home... I feel really bad about that) If you work anywhere even remotely related to Open Source, I'd recommend getting your employer to get a corporate subscription. It's one of the single most valuable news sources I read; it summarizes LKML and numerous other first-hand sources, as well as many conferences, summits, and other in-person events.

friendzis 12y ago

Next step: Python on bare metal ARM targets. Imagine loading Python interpreter to an uC, quickly hacking together some scripts and happily running some DIY project. `sys` and especially `os` packages are out, maybe some high level features and something clever has to be done about interrupts, but that would be totally awesome

ul5255 12y ago
That is already available: https://micropython.org https://micropython.org I have the PyBoard but one can get it running on ST Discovery boards as well.

pjc50 12y ago

Really would have to do something about the GIL in that case unless you want to be restricted to one core - or run several independent interpreters NUMA-style.

JoshTriplett 12y ago
Yeah, the GIL is the biggest reason we haven't tried to run any Python code on non-boot CPUs; we just run tiny C functions that return information to the boot CPU.

mahouse 12y ago

Or a web engine made in Python. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotJava https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotJava