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There's a very strongly held opinion in certain places in central Japan that the Toyota sudden acceleration issue has at no time ever actually been a true state

by patio11 12y ago

There's a very strongly held opinion in certain places in central Japan that the Toyota sudden acceleration issue has at no time ever actually been a true statement about engineering reality, and that it has been at all times an outright fabrication on the part of the American government to protect the domestic auto industry which is presently owned by the American government. I would be more skeptical of this but for the reports coming out from the NHTS confirming "Yep, there is no there there" combined with the multi-billion dollar fines. It has the appearance of it just not mattering whether there were any faults in the vehicles.

sjg007 12y ago
There was a court case later that investigated the firmware of the drive by wire throttle control system software. Basically, design choices in the software implementation couldn't rule out the software as the source of unintended acceleration. All bets are off after stack overflow and continued execution. Also the "brake override" wasn't a feature included at all which one could argue should have been part of the design. In fact, software for car control systems should go through the same rigorous testing, documentation, control etc... (similar to what is required for FDA medical devices). More: http://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-killer-firmware--Bad-design-and-its-consequences http://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-killer...
- ArkyBeagle 12y ago
  It's hard to say whether it should or not. Something like that, sure. Perhaps not exactly the same thing.
- vilhelm_s 12y ago
  The court case showed that the throttle control programming was shoddy in various ways, but I don't think they demonstrated any observably buggy behavior, let alone any proof that software faults were behind any particular accident. I think it's also quite possible that there never were any abnormal unintended accelerations, but the media debacle caused people to carefully investigate the cars, at which point they discovered that the programming was bad.
  - pnathan 12y ago
    They actually demonstrated buggy behaviour, as well as the number of paths that could lead to that behaviour (very large).
- kijin 12y ago
  > similar to what is required for FDA medical devices Given how often we hear about gaping security holes in all sorts of medical devices, that doesn't seem like a particularly high standard. Does anyone know whether Boeing and Airbus have higher standards for software quality?
  - EpicEng 12y ago
    Well, I've spent the last decade designing FDA cleared systems (class I and class III), and I can tell you that it is. That doesn't mean that mistakes aren't made, and it doesn't mean that you can't outright lie in documentation. There's no way the FDA could catch that short of replicating all of your V&V. However, most of us aren't trying to cheat, and I can tell you that the amount of engineering rigor that goes into a medical device is leagues beyond what most software devs have ever been a part of. At my company we don't hire "developers"; we hire engineers who have programming in their toolbox. Medical software screwups are high profile. You don't hear about every bug that the next "disruptive startup" lets into the wild.
larrys 12y ago
"and that it has been at all times an outright fabrication on the part of the American government to protect the domestic auto industry which is presently owned by the American government" If there were a shred of truth to this the press and in particular news magazines like 60 minutes as well as WSJ and NYT would be all over this. There are people in this country who also believe that the government played a role in 9/11. As if a conspiracy such as that could actually be kept quiet given the number of players involved in pulling that off not to mention the absurdity of the idea to begin with.
- hysterix 12y ago
  >the absurdity of the idea to begin with A false flag operation initiated by America is an absurd idea? What about all the documented and public comings and goings of when America has done just that? How in the hell is the notion of America creating an enemy to rally against absurd when there is proof of it occurring in the past? Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods Project TP-Ajax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat Many people say the Gulf of Tonkin incident which initiated the Vietnam "conflict" was also one. I'm astounded that you can make a statement like that when there is such black and white proof of such incidents occurring in the past. I'm not talking about 9/11, I'm just saying that it isn't out of the realm of possibility for a government to manufacture an enemy. What I'm wondering is, are you just ignorant and you've never heard of these documented false flag operations? Or instead have you heard of these things and choose not to believe it?
  - AnimalMuppet 12y ago
    You present evidence that the US has done such things in the past as evidence that it is not absurd to believe that 9/11 was a false flag operation. But why is the idea that 9/11 was an inside job absurd? Is the only reason because people consider it absurd that the US would ever do such a thing? Or is it possible to believe that, yes, the US has done such things, but it is absurd to think that 9/11 was one of them? I submit that it is possible to believe that the US has done such things, and also possible - even reasonable - to believe that it is still absurd to think that 9/11 was such an event.
ArkyBeagle 12y ago
The Micheal Barr Group did a very high-profile autopsy on the code. The upshot is not good for Toyota.
- sitkack 12y ago
  Floor mats fit Gladwell's narrative much better than even mentioning software. His writing sounds like news, but it is not news, it is revisionist entertainment by omission. A half story, is half truth, is a lie.
  - ArkyBeagle 12y ago
    It's an essay. An essay is whatever you want it to be. Floor mats was a sort of strawman erected ( by someone other than Gladwell ) in the history of the subject. He's illuminating the schism between how engineers think and how ... people ... who are not engineers .... think. Always a fun topic, IMO.
    - sitkack 12y ago
      I am an engineer, and I don't think in the picture he paints. An essay is obviously opinion meant to sway opinion, that is not how Gladwell writes. Both Toyota and GM acted maliciously in covering up flaws in the products they sold. For Gladwell to spin the folksy, aww shucks it is just the floor mats, you still have breaks is just as disingenuous as GM telling teenagers not to hang so much shit from their key chain. http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintended-acceleration-and-big-bowl-%E2%80%9Cspaghetti%E2%80%9D-code http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende... > Jean Bookout and her friend and passenger Barbara Schwarz were exiting Interstate Highway 69 in Oklahoma, when she lost throttle control of her 2005 Camry. When the service brakes would not stop her speeding sedan, she threw the parking brake, leaving a 150-foot skid mark from right rear tire, and a 25-foot skid mark from the left. The Camry, however, continued speeding down the ramp and across the road at the bottom, crashing into an embankment. Schwarz died of her injuries; Bookout spent five months recovering from head and back injuries.
exelius 12y ago
I could see how that viewpoint seems valid from the perspective of a Japanese engineer. But those of us from America know that our government is far too incompetent to pull off something like this intentionally. The far more believable (and frankly, more American) response is that we created a bunch of hysteria and outrage over nothing. As this article shows, we have done this with our domestic car manufacturers as well (though I'm surprised nobody else commented that this was a Malcolm Gladwell article). Furthermore, I'm not sure there's a whole lot of difference between domestic and foreign auto manufacturers at this point. The domestic auto companies still build parts overseas, and the foreign manufacturers still do manufacturing in the US. Also, large parts of domestically manufactured autos are either licensed or purchased directly from Japanese auto companies -- so a recall of a faulty part in a Japanese car would likely lead to recalls of American cars that use the same part. This was the case with the Honda airbag recall -- Chrysler used a lot of Honda-made airbags in its cars, and had to recall them as a result.

by patio11 12y ago

sjg007 12y ago

There was a court case later that investigated the firmware of the drive by wire throttle control system software. Basically, design choices in the software implementation couldn't rule out the software as the source of unintended acceleration. All bets are off after stack overflow and continued execution. Also the "brake override" wasn't a feature included at all which one could argue should have been part of the design. In fact, software for car control systems should go through the same rigorous testing, documentation, control etc... (similar to what is required for FDA medical devices). More: http://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-killer-firmware--Bad-design-and-its-consequences http://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-killer...

ArkyBeagle 12y ago
It's hard to say whether it should or not. Something like that, sure. Perhaps not exactly the same thing.
vilhelm_s 12y ago
The court case showed that the throttle control programming was shoddy in various ways, but I don't think they demonstrated any observably buggy behavior, let alone any proof that software faults were behind any particular accident. I think it's also quite possible that there never were any abnormal unintended accelerations, but the media debacle caused people to carefully investigate the cars, at which point they discovered that the programming was bad.
- pnathan 12y ago
  They actually demonstrated buggy behaviour, as well as the number of paths that could lead to that behaviour (very large).
kijin 12y ago
> similar to what is required for FDA medical devices Given how often we hear about gaping security holes in all sorts of medical devices, that doesn't seem like a particularly high standard. Does anyone know whether Boeing and Airbus have higher standards for software quality?
- EpicEng 12y ago
  Well, I've spent the last decade designing FDA cleared systems (class I and class III), and I can tell you that it is. That doesn't mean that mistakes aren't made, and it doesn't mean that you can't outright lie in documentation. There's no way the FDA could catch that short of replicating all of your V&V. However, most of us aren't trying to cheat, and I can tell you that the amount of engineering rigor that goes into a medical device is leagues beyond what most software devs have ever been a part of. At my company we don't hire "developers"; we hire engineers who have programming in their toolbox. Medical software screwups are high profile. You don't hear about every bug that the next "disruptive startup" lets into the wild.

larrys 12y ago

"and that it has been at all times an outright fabrication on the part of the American government to protect the domestic auto industry which is presently owned by the American government" If there were a shred of truth to this the press and in particular news magazines like 60 minutes as well as WSJ and NYT would be all over this. There are people in this country who also believe that the government played a role in 9/11. As if a conspiracy such as that could actually be kept quiet given the number of players involved in pulling that off not to mention the absurdity of the idea to begin with.

hysterix 12y ago
>the absurdity of the idea to begin with A false flag operation initiated by America is an absurd idea? What about all the documented and public comings and goings of when America has done just that? How in the hell is the notion of America creating an enemy to rally against absurd when there is proof of it occurring in the past? Operation Northwoods - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods Project TP-Ajax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat Many people say the Gulf of Tonkin incident which initiated the Vietnam "conflict" was also one. I'm astounded that you can make a statement like that when there is such black and white proof of such incidents occurring in the past. I'm not talking about 9/11, I'm just saying that it isn't out of the realm of possibility for a government to manufacture an enemy. What I'm wondering is, are you just ignorant and you've never heard of these documented false flag operations? Or instead have you heard of these things and choose not to believe it?
- AnimalMuppet 12y ago
  You present evidence that the US has done such things in the past as evidence that it is not absurd to believe that 9/11 was a false flag operation. But why is the idea that 9/11 was an inside job absurd? Is the only reason because people consider it absurd that the US would ever do such a thing? Or is it possible to believe that, yes, the US has done such things, but it is absurd to think that 9/11 was one of them? I submit that it is possible to believe that the US has done such things, and also possible - even reasonable - to believe that it is still absurd to think that 9/11 was such an event.

ArkyBeagle 12y ago

The Micheal Barr Group did a very high-profile autopsy on the code. The upshot is not good for Toyota.

sitkack 12y ago
Floor mats fit Gladwell's narrative much better than even mentioning software. His writing sounds like news, but it is not news, it is revisionist entertainment by omission. A half story, is half truth, is a lie.
- ArkyBeagle 12y ago
  It's an essay. An essay is whatever you want it to be. Floor mats was a sort of strawman erected ( by someone other than Gladwell ) in the history of the subject. He's illuminating the schism between how engineers think and how ... people ... who are not engineers .... think. Always a fun topic, IMO.
  - sitkack 12y ago
    I am an engineer, and I don't think in the picture he paints. An essay is obviously opinion meant to sway opinion, that is not how Gladwell writes. Both Toyota and GM acted maliciously in covering up flaws in the products they sold. For Gladwell to spin the folksy, aww shucks it is just the floor mats, you still have breaks is just as disingenuous as GM telling teenagers not to hang so much shit from their key chain. http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintended-acceleration-and-big-bowl-%E2%80%9Cspaghetti%E2%80%9D-code http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende... > Jean Bookout and her friend and passenger Barbara Schwarz were exiting Interstate Highway 69 in Oklahoma, when she lost throttle control of her 2005 Camry. When the service brakes would not stop her speeding sedan, she threw the parking brake, leaving a 150-foot skid mark from right rear tire, and a 25-foot skid mark from the left. The Camry, however, continued speeding down the ramp and across the road at the bottom, crashing into an embankment. Schwarz died of her injuries; Bookout spent five months recovering from head and back injuries.

exelius 12y ago

I could see how that viewpoint seems valid from the perspective of a Japanese engineer. But those of us from America know that our government is far too incompetent to pull off something like this intentionally. The far more believable (and frankly, more American) response is that we created a bunch of hysteria and outrage over nothing. As this article shows, we have done this with our domestic car manufacturers as well (though I'm surprised nobody else commented that this was a Malcolm Gladwell article). Furthermore, I'm not sure there's a whole lot of difference between domestic and foreign auto manufacturers at this point. The domestic auto companies still build parts overseas, and the foreign manufacturers still do manufacturing in the US. Also, large parts of domestically manufactured autos are either licensed or purchased directly from Japanese auto companies -- so a recall of a faulty part in a Japanese car would likely lead to recalls of American cars that use the same part. This was the case with the Honda airbag recall -- Chrysler used a lot of Honda-made airbags in its cars, and had to recall them as a result.