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Death for stealing candles
- saosebastiao 12y agoI found this interesting and upvoted accordingly but I'm hoping to hear why it was submitted. Is there some context we should know about?
- malkia 12y agoContext: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9443048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9443048
- DannoHung 12y agoInsufficient context, please expand.
- hvm 12y agoI love this kind of historical information. It's difficult (to me) to empathise with past historical events when we (I) have no knowledge of those people and how they lived. Reading about their daily struggles gives events from that time a whole new image. BTW, I found extremely interesting that they gave the condemned an interview which they then wrote down ( http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=OA17160127 http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=OA17160127 ). How many average people from that time have the luxury of their lives being recorded for future people to see? How many of us have that today?
- notahacker 12y agoThe cynic in me questions the authenticity of the accounts, given that the chaplain responsible for collecting them was part of the penal apparatus and derived significant income from selling the accounts to the execution-watching public as instructive morality tales. Even accounting for the religiosity of the condemned, they seem remarkably keen to confess to long histories of criminal behaviour and repent of their sins rather than question the system that had condemned them.
- qzervaas 12y agoCan anybody shed any light on the etymology of "prov'd"? It was fully prov'd, that the Prisoner unbolted the Hatch...
- seatonist 12y ago"Prov'd" is just a contraction of "proved". It was common at that time. This might have a familiar ring... If this be error, and upon me prov'd, I never writ, nor no man ever lov'd. (It's from Shakespeare's famous sonnet that begins "Let me not to the marriage of true minds / admit impediments".) Beyond that, "prove", "proof", "proven", etc are all from the latin provare - to try, or test.
- Terr_ 12y agoAlso, it apparently rhymed at the time, but nowadays we say "proved" differently.
- JacobAldridge 12y agoThe Great Vowel Shift - a fabulous part of history, and essential for fully appreciating Shakespeare. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift
- gnud 12y agoAn interesting piece about this is [1]. I like the example of the double meaning in 'as you like it', shown at 8:11 [2]. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gPlpphT7n9s#t=491 https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gP...
- DannoHung 12y agoHow much is 48s in a monetary value I am familiar with?
- deanmen 12y agoThere are 20 shillings in an old pound, so it is £2.40 This is equivalent to about £300 today. If we instead consider it as a percentage of the GDP per capita it would be eqiuivalent to £6000 today.
- bloat 12y agoAnd if we consider the amount of money needed to buy 96 candles, it's about £77.50. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bolsius-Ivory-Dinner-Candles-7-5hrs/dp/B007T6OIBK/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1430127523&sr=8-18&keywords=candles http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bolsius-Ivory-Dinner-Candles-7-5hrs/...
- dunmalg 12y agoModern candles are not even remotely comparable, neither in composition, nor method of manufacture, nor in their former value as a primary source of light. Candles used to use valuable raw materials, were fairly laboriously made by hand, and weren't just a decoration for a romantic dinner, after which one could simply flip on a light switch.
- logfromblammo 12y agoBack then, candles would have been made from either beeswax (churches and rich people) or tallow (everyone else). Spermaceti and brassica-oil candles were not yet in common use. The median family spent 65 shillings per year on candles. The total value stolen was 49.5 shillings. So a valid comparison would be 75% of the median family's annual lighting budget today. I estimate the annual cost for lighting at 1000 kWh grid power (US$120, GB£80), plus some replacement compact fluorescent bulbs (US$30, GB£20), for a crime equivalent of US$113 or GB£75. Another valid comparison would be the amount it would cost for an equivalent amount of lighting now. In modern terms, the items stolen amounted to about 800 hours of a one-candela light source. Maybe one green 20mW LED and 6 AA alkaline (LR6) batteries, or a white LED and 6 D alkaline (LR20) batteries. This is equivalent to the light of leaving one 25W compact fluorescent bulb on for 6 hours. Imagine if every time you left the light on in your bedroom when you left for school, your Dad killed you, and then danced on your grave, singing 'alleluia.
- ghayes 12y agoGoing to the source[0], there is no reference to the punishment listed. In fact, other punishments listed on the same page seem mundane in comparison, e.g. > ... the Jury found him Guilty to the Value of 38s. Is it possible this is just a transcription error? Edit: maybe not, see [1] [0] http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=171601130002 http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=171601130002 [1] http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=171601130006 http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=171601130006
- hvm 12y agoAlso, like I said in a previous comment, it's interesting to note the 'interview' given to the condemned: http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=OA17160127 http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=OA17160127 I also wonder what's up with those two names in the 'burnt in hand' section that are anonymized (V--- E--- and G--- C---). Public people not wanting others to know about it? Escapees? People with no public records?
- SixSigma 12y agoAccording to my tour of The Galleries of Justice, in Nottingham UK, the cut-off point between transportation and execution was the price of a loaf of bread.
- lordnacho 12y agoAnd yet people still stole stuff. Does that say something about deterrence?
- SixSigma 12y agoIf you're stealing to live, the threat of being executed is just an alternative ending.
- throwaway_xl5 12y agoIn 'The Commonwealth Of Thieves' Tom Keneally notes some people were committing offences with the express intention of being sentenced to transportation to the penal colonies in Australia. Apologies for the secondary source.
- ballpoint 12y agoThis was apparently pretty typical for English law hundreds of years ago. As I understand it, wealthy people had a lot of influence over the government and were able to lobby for extreme punishments to protect their fortunes. Many of the death sentences were not even carried out by the executioners, because they were so common.
- ionised 12y ago> As I understand it, wealthy people had a lot of influence over the government and were able to lobby for extreme punishments to protect their fortunes. Western society has come a long way indeed. Oh, wait...
- V-2 12y agohttp://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/18/minnesota.music.download.fine/index.html?eref=ib_us http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/18/minnesota.music.down... "A federal jury Thursday found a 32-year-old Minnesota woman guilty of illegally downloading music from the Internet and fined her $80,000 each -- a total of $1.9 million -- for 24 songs." (After long battles in courts, the penalty was ultimately settled at $222,000).
- mauricemir 12y agothough over time Juries became unwilling to convict and quite often the amount in question was reduced so they got transported
- V-2 12y agowealthy people had a lot of influence over the government and were able to lobby for extreme punishments to protect their fortunes Such as candles
- mootothemax 12y agoThis dates from the so-called "Bloody Code" era of 1688 to 1815, where some 220 offences could lead to the death sentence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Code http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Code Apparently "theft of goods worth more than 12 pence, which was only about one-twentieth of the weekly wage for a skilled worker at the time" could lead to the death sentence. Other crimes that could be punished with death included: - Being in the company of Gypsies for one month - Strong evidence of malice in a child aged 7–14 years of age - Blacking the face or using a disguise whilst committing a crime The latter comes from the Black Act, which introduced 50 such offences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Act "Pleading the belly" was an option for women who were detectably pregnant, and if they were found pregnant, the woman's death sentence could be postponed until they had delivered their child, changed to penal transportation, or even pardoned altogether: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleading_the_belly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleading_the_belly A jury of matrons would be responsible - sometimes corruptly - although a woman would only receive one reprieve; any further pregnancy would be ignored and the death penalty carried out regardless: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_of_matrons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_of_matrons
- noir_lord 12y agoIt's easy to forget living in 21st century Britain how far we've come generally. Thanks for the reminder.
- pjc50 12y agoAnd the death penalty was only formally abolished by the Human Rights Act 1998 (for the remaining offences of high treason or arson in a naval dockyard). I believe that polls on the subject of reintroducing it for serious crimes regularly return over 50% support. Edit: oh and you can still get disproportionate sentences for trivial crimes in California under the "three strikes" law. There are people serving life sentences for minor shoplifting.
- noir_lord 12y agoIndeed and the world is not perfect but it's a damn sight better than it was 200 years ago (in the west) anyway. To quote William Gibson > "The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed."
- zby 12y agoThe detection was very law so for the penalties to be effective they would have to be severe.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- cstross 12y agoThe point is, the penalties weren't effective -- if effectiveness of a criminal justice system is evaluated in terms of crime prevention. We're talking about an age where there were no police organizations as we currently understand the term: a lot of arrests were made by freelance "thief takers" such as the infamous Jonathan Wilde, who himself eventually went to the gallows (because he wasn't merely a thief-taker, he was also the biggest fence for stolen goods in London!): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Wild http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Wild (Shorter version: think of him as a kind of 18th century anti-Batman.) Because arrest rates were virtually non-existent except when an angry shopkeeper grabbed a burglar in the act, or a mob went for a known miscreant, punishments were draconian. But because punishments were draconian, they were often commuted -- by the end of the 18th century about half of death sentences ended up being turned into transportation and involuntary servitude (basically, exile and slavery). Crime rates remained terrifyingly high by modern standards until the 1830s, when Sir Robert Peel as Home Secretary abolished and rationalized a lot of laws (he axed the death penalty for most offenses but replaced it with imprisonment) and instituted the first modern police forces: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Peel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Peel Anyway, the takeaway from all this is, the British state in the 18th century performed a large-scale experiment that proved pretty much definitively that draconian punishments do not deter crime. What reduces criminal activity is certainty of apprehension, even if the punishment is relatively mild or rehabilitative. (Nobody thinks "I'd better not steal that pizza, I can probably get away with it but if they catch me I might end up facing life in jail". But knowing "if I steal that pizza, I will be caught" is an effective deterrent.)
- zby 12y agoMore severe penalties are more effective than less severe penalties. The other dimension of certainty of detection gives better opportunities for improvement and using it was a great step for civilization - but it does not negate the my thesis. Your argument is like proposing that people in 18th century invented airplanes because using steamers did not really improve the time of travel :)
- tptacek 12y agoThe same site suggests that most of these prisoners weren't actually executed: http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#death http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#death
- monroepe 12y agoI was actually going to point that out too. I did a research paper on theft in this time period when I was in college and was shocked when I saw that people were sentenced to for theft. I mean I know it was a different time, but it really wasn't all that long ago. I was relieved when I looked into it more and found that most weren't really executed.
- ghostberry 12y agoBy "most weren't really executed", are we talking 99%, 90%, 51%?
- onion2k 12y agoThat's not a light sentence.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
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- lifeisstillgood 12y agoI grew up around Hoddesdon - the same town in England that Mary Knight grew up in, before she was executed for stealing 9shillings, On the same gallows as the candle thief http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=OA17160127 http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=OA17160127 That's the weirdest thing ever - it's like finding the middle of butt-nowhere was still the middle of butt-nowhere 200 years ago. RIP Mary. http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=OA17160127 http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=OA17160127