5 ms·

dont wont to criticize any of the great & mainly voluntary work of the debian folks, but not quite sure how to interpret these statistics [1] looks like jessie

by bemused 11y ago

dont wont to criticize any of the great & mainly voluntary work of the debian folks, but not quite sure how to interpret these statistics [1] looks like jessie is going to be the first debian stable to be released with rc-critical issues and not "when it's done" some of the bugs referred [2] seem quite critical indeed, maybe someone with more insight could comment on this? [1] http://richardhartmann.de/blog/posts/2015/04/24-Debian_Release_Critical_Bug_report_for_Week_17/ http://richardhartmann.de/blog/posts/2015/04/24-Debian_Relea... [2] https://udd.debian.org/bugs.cgi?release=jessie_and_sid&patch=ign&merged=ign&done=ign&fnewerval=7&rc=1&sortby=id&sorto=asc&ctags=1&ctags=1&cdeferred=1&keypackages=only&chints=1&cdeferred=1&crttags=1#results https://udd.debian.org/bugs.cgi?release=jessie_and_sid&patch...

jestinjoy1 11y ago
Thats interesting. One thing that is said about Debian is "most stable GNU/Linux". Now it seems, it is a thing of the past. https://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/ https://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/ Any idea why they have gone with this?
- Demiurge 11y ago
  Wouldn't that only be true if there is a more stable distro? What would that be?
kasabali 11y ago
I hope stable release team accepts fixes to some of those issues into later updates.
marcosdumay 11y ago
Took a quick look at some of the bugs that would affect me... It's systemd, systemd and systemd. Oh, yeah, that's Debian's systemd release.
- progman 11y ago
  People who dislike systemd can take a look at http://without-systemd.org http://without-systemd.org.
  - geoka9 11y ago
    Any idea how long Debian wheezy will continue to receive security bug fixes?
    - JonathonW 11y ago
      There's no set schedule, but the previous release generally continues to receive security updates for about a year after the release of a new version. See https://wiki.debian.org/DebianOldStable https://wiki.debian.org/DebianOldStable. (This assumes that Debian doesn't decide to declare Wheezy as a new LTS release once support for Squeeze ends in February 2016... AFAIK it's not clear what their plans are there.)
    - progman 11y ago
      At least long enough to decide which Linux distro to use in the future. Unfortunately many distros have already jumped on the systemd wagon but I think soon there will be a increasing collection of non-systemd alternatives which will continue to follow the KISS principle which made Unix and Linux so great. There already _are_ alternatives to systemd and systemv -- launchd and upstart (used by ChromeOS) for instance. I hope soon we will have an init system which takes the best of all current ones while still following the KISS principle. Linux must keep this principle alive unless it will probably fall into the trap of Windows' monolithic bug hell. Ironically Linux 3.11 kernel was already called "Linux for Workgroups" :-)
      - the_why_of_y 11y ago
        There may be alternatives to systemd, but ... launchd? Do you really want to write your job descriptions in the amazingly silly XML p-list schema? Upstart's event model doesn't even work properly. https://bugs.launchpad.net/upstart/+bug/447654 https://bugs.launchpad.net/upstart/+bug/447654 And... did you know it's using ptrace(2) to track processes? https://bugs.launchpad.net/upstart/+bug/406397 https://bugs.launchpad.net/upstart/+bug/406397
viccuad 11y ago
Don't forget that the "Stable" definition for Debian is not the normal one, they are super zelous. Testing and Sid distributions are "stable" for the rest of distros. And remember that all those bugs on the Debian release are present in other distros, and they even don't acknowledge them sometimes.
- bemused 11y ago
  sure, but thats exactly why I was asking - I am looking for some background on this decision and hoping that someone with more insight can share a link or something
kasabali 11y ago
I also wonder the reason for that. As a speculation from an outsider, I'll list these reasons: Release team was very motivated in this cycle (auto removal of packages, not letting any new package in freeze, very strict exceptions even for packages that fix bugs etc.), most of current rc bugs are lurking there for months without any progress (and since Debian is all volunteer work, they can't force anybody to fix 'em), and they couldn't also remove those packages because they've already removed packages they could remove. Another thing is some of those RC bugs are security issues, which are handled by Security Team for stable and oldstable, so there is no reason for security issues to delay the release. When all these are considered, they may have not deemed further delaying the release worthwhile. I would also like to hear the real reasons from a team member, though.
- walterbell 11y ago
  Has there been a significant loss of Debian senior development resources to the https://devuan.org https://devuan.org fork, as a result of the systemd debates?
  - kasabali 11y ago
    I don't follow Devuan development so I'm not sure but AFAIK no senior developer went to Devuan. There has been loss of senior development resources because of the systemd and related discussions, though (some quit, some lost motivation etc.)
  - federico3 11y ago
    Not at all, devuan is not considered trustworthy by the majority (to put it mildly).
  - tzakrajs 11y ago
    Russ Allbery left https://lwn.net/Articles/620879/ https://lwn.net/Articles/620879/ edit: I don't know if he is going Devuan, but is related.
    - forgottenpass 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

by bemused 11y ago

jestinjoy1 11y ago

Thats interesting. One thing that is said about Debian is "most stable GNU/Linux". Now it seems, it is a thing of the past. https://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/ https://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/ Any idea why they have gone with this?

Demiurge 11y ago
Wouldn't that only be true if there is a more stable distro? What would that be?

kasabali 11y ago

I hope stable release team accepts fixes to some of those issues into later updates.

marcosdumay 11y ago

Took a quick look at some of the bugs that would affect me... It's systemd, systemd and systemd. Oh, yeah, that's Debian's systemd release.

progman 11y ago
People who dislike systemd can take a look at http://without-systemd.org http://without-systemd.org.
- geoka9 11y ago
  Any idea how long Debian wheezy will continue to receive security bug fixes?
  - JonathonW 11y ago
    There's no set schedule, but the previous release generally continues to receive security updates for about a year after the release of a new version. See https://wiki.debian.org/DebianOldStable https://wiki.debian.org/DebianOldStable. (This assumes that Debian doesn't decide to declare Wheezy as a new LTS release once support for Squeeze ends in February 2016... AFAIK it's not clear what their plans are there.)
  - progman 11y ago
    At least long enough to decide which Linux distro to use in the future. Unfortunately many distros have already jumped on the systemd wagon but I think soon there will be a increasing collection of non-systemd alternatives which will continue to follow the KISS principle which made Unix and Linux so great. There already _are_ alternatives to systemd and systemv -- launchd and upstart (used by ChromeOS) for instance. I hope soon we will have an init system which takes the best of all current ones while still following the KISS principle. Linux must keep this principle alive unless it will probably fall into the trap of Windows' monolithic bug hell. Ironically Linux 3.11 kernel was already called "Linux for Workgroups" :-)
    - the_why_of_y 11y ago
      There may be alternatives to systemd, but ... launchd? Do you really want to write your job descriptions in the amazingly silly XML p-list schema? Upstart's event model doesn't even work properly. https://bugs.launchpad.net/upstart/+bug/447654 https://bugs.launchpad.net/upstart/+bug/447654 And... did you know it's using ptrace(2) to track processes? https://bugs.launchpad.net/upstart/+bug/406397 https://bugs.launchpad.net/upstart/+bug/406397

viccuad 11y ago

Don't forget that the "Stable" definition for Debian is not the normal one, they are super zelous. Testing and Sid distributions are "stable" for the rest of distros. And remember that all those bugs on the Debian release are present in other distros, and they even don't acknowledge them sometimes.

bemused 11y ago
sure, but thats exactly why I was asking - I am looking for some background on this decision and hoping that someone with more insight can share a link or something

kasabali 11y ago

I also wonder the reason for that. As a speculation from an outsider, I'll list these reasons: Release team was very motivated in this cycle (auto removal of packages, not letting any new package in freeze, very strict exceptions even for packages that fix bugs etc.), most of current rc bugs are lurking there for months without any progress (and since Debian is all volunteer work, they can't force anybody to fix 'em), and they couldn't also remove those packages because they've already removed packages they could remove. Another thing is some of those RC bugs are security issues, which are handled by Security Team for stable and oldstable, so there is no reason for security issues to delay the release. When all these are considered, they may have not deemed further delaying the release worthwhile. I would also like to hear the real reasons from a team member, though.

walterbell 11y ago
Has there been a significant loss of Debian senior development resources to the https://devuan.org https://devuan.org fork, as a result of the systemd debates?
- kasabali 11y ago
  I don't follow Devuan development so I'm not sure but AFAIK no senior developer went to Devuan. There has been loss of senior development resources because of the systemd and related discussions, though (some quit, some lost motivation etc.)
- federico3 11y ago
  Not at all, devuan is not considered trustworthy by the majority (to put it mildly).
- tzakrajs 11y ago
  Russ Allbery left https://lwn.net/Articles/620879/ https://lwn.net/Articles/620879/ edit: I don't know if he is going Devuan, but is related.
  - forgottenpass 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]