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There were performance reviews that said she did well, they were mixed and complicated like all performance reviews. Also given that the defense tried to discr

There were performance reviews that said she did well, they were mixed and complicated like all performance reviews. Also given that the defense tried to discredit her by noting that she sent e-mails to herself it seems strange to call "she said they said" invalid evidence since without those e-mails there would be nothing at all. What would hard evidence even be for this type of case? Is there going to be an e-mail between partners saying "we should not promote Ellen because she's a woman"? Did Ellen Pao prove her case conclusively? I think not. Was it clear that there were plenty of issues going on at the time that Kleiner could've handled a lot better? I think so.

zxcvvcxz 12y ago
Even perfect performance reviews doesn't entitle one to be promoted. Why does everyone have this idea in their head, that if they cross all the t's and dot all the i's the world is going to reward them? Are we really going to start to sue over disillusionment?
- tw04 12y ago
  When a woman who has perfect reviews is passed over for a promotion by a man who doesn't... ya, they have some room to be pissed off and gripe. And yes, if you do everything your employer asks of you and then some, you should be rewarded. What is this world coming to when doing so is considered "average"?
  - phamilton 12y ago
    If a promotion is available, then you are probably right. But if no position is available you could be the perfect employee and not get a promotion and there would be nothing wrong with that.
    - rhizome 12y ago
      Being passed-over implies a promotion was available.
  - pen2l 12y ago
    > And yes, if you do everything your employer asks of you and then some, you should be rewarded. What is this world coming to when doing so is considered "average"? You probably should, but the reality of a capitalistic system is you probably won't. I have a lot of friends who did everything they were told would get them good jobs, a stable pay, money to have a house, a vacation... but they have nothing. Not to discredit Pao, but I sometimes just laugh at people lamenting about not getting their millions whilst I'm sitting here, drinking with my suicidal buddy who's lamenting about not being able to land a job, after having submitted his resume to over a hundred places.
  - cbd1984 12y ago
    So if a man got passed over and a woman got the promotion, would the man have a good case, in your eyes? How about if they were both the same gender?
    - cbd1984 11y ago
      It seems like there's a conversation we're not having here, and a few people should not be allowed to force us to not have it.
  - AnkhMorporkian 12y ago
    Playing devil's advocate, being perfect at position X doesn't necessarily mean you'll be a good fit at position Y, and being less than perfect at position X doesn't mean you won't be a perfect fit in position Y.
    - ptaipale 11y ago
      Right. Remember Peter's Principle: Selection of a candidate for a position is based on the candidate's performance in their current role rather than on abilities relevant to the intended role. Thus, employees only stop being promoted once they can no longer perform effectively, and "managers rise to the level of their incompetence."
- jegutman 12y ago
  To be clear, they fired her, they didn't just "not promote" her.
MagicWishMonkey 12y ago
Doing well in performance reviews doesn't mean much. It was pretty clear that she was not easy to work with, and a lot of her coworkers didn't like working with her. I have no doubt that she was a brilliant employee, but that doesn't really matter if no one wants to work with her. There's a reason why so many companies put a lot of emphasis on "culture fit".
- jegutman 12y ago
  She was a fine culture fit. I can tell you this because they kept her around for quite a while. Bad culture fits don't last, especially not at a well-run firm. Culture fits aren't soul mates, there are still normal difficulties and things to work through. People had trouble working with her possibly after she brought up issues of sexual harassment and discrimination, but there's actually something under the law to protect her from this, anti-retaliation laws, which she tried to sue Kleiner over and lost, but that part of the case definitely seemed like there was some merit to although possibly not enough to meet a preponderance of the evidence.
  - growupkids 12y ago
    In reality bad culture hires stick around because most people are polite and assume it's just them, and They give difficult people second chances, they put up with them for a long time because they're not used to being around people that are that "off". So you can't assume just because someone isn't dismissed quickly that they automatically were a good hire. I've seen plenty of bad hires kept around because people were unable to grok why this person was difficult. They give them lots of second chances and it took time before everyone finally gave up. I'm not saying that's what happened here, what I am saying is you can't jump to a conclusion that because someone wasn't fired that means they were a good fit.
  - trhway 11y ago
    > I can tell you this because they kept her around for quite a while. what alternative did they have? A lawsuit "they gave me bad performance/fired me because i'm a woman"? A lawsuit which they would lose with much higher probability and much higher damages. They could only wait until she leaves on her own. >People had trouble working with her possibly after she brought up issues of sexual harassment and discrimination People had trouble working with her possibly because she is a total jerk - she complained that the assistant of her colleague was sending brain scans of dying from cancer mother from office. Wrt. promotion - promotion isn't something employee is entitled to. If you think company doesn't value you enough - get an offer at other place and you will immediately see how much your company really values you. Did Kleiner tried to keep her when she was leaving? Seems like they didn't. Why? Because she is a woman? Now at Reddit she installed "no negotiation" hiring policy. She seems to be unaware that in case of good employees it isn't the prospective employee who negotiates, it really his current employer who doesn't want the employee to leave. Probably her former employers has always just let her leave easy, without counters :)
tsotha 12y ago
She slept with a coworker. Who does this without realizing one of you may have to go?
- zak_mc_kracken 11y ago
  Hundreds of thousands of people do this on a daily basis without having to leave their job.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - tsotha 11y ago
    And yet a whole lot of them do end up leaving. If you carry on an office romance, particularly when one or both of you is married, that's a possibility. I've seen it at my office - it's pretty common for people to be unable to work together after the breakup.

zxcvvcxz 12y ago

Even perfect performance reviews doesn't entitle one to be promoted. Why does everyone have this idea in their head, that if they cross all the t's and dot all the i's the world is going to reward them? Are we really going to start to sue over disillusionment?

tw04 12y ago
When a woman who has perfect reviews is passed over for a promotion by a man who doesn't... ya, they have some room to be pissed off and gripe. And yes, if you do everything your employer asks of you and then some, you should be rewarded. What is this world coming to when doing so is considered "average"?
- phamilton 12y ago
  If a promotion is available, then you are probably right. But if no position is available you could be the perfect employee and not get a promotion and there would be nothing wrong with that.
  - rhizome 12y ago
    Being passed-over implies a promotion was available.
- pen2l 12y ago
  > And yes, if you do everything your employer asks of you and then some, you should be rewarded. What is this world coming to when doing so is considered "average"? You probably should, but the reality of a capitalistic system is you probably won't. I have a lot of friends who did everything they were told would get them good jobs, a stable pay, money to have a house, a vacation... but they have nothing. Not to discredit Pao, but I sometimes just laugh at people lamenting about not getting their millions whilst I'm sitting here, drinking with my suicidal buddy who's lamenting about not being able to land a job, after having submitted his resume to over a hundred places.
- cbd1984 12y ago
  So if a man got passed over and a woman got the promotion, would the man have a good case, in your eyes? How about if they were both the same gender?
  - cbd1984 11y ago
    It seems like there's a conversation we're not having here, and a few people should not be allowed to force us to not have it.
- AnkhMorporkian 12y ago
  Playing devil's advocate, being perfect at position X doesn't necessarily mean you'll be a good fit at position Y, and being less than perfect at position X doesn't mean you won't be a perfect fit in position Y.
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    Right. Remember Peter's Principle: Selection of a candidate for a position is based on the candidate's performance in their current role rather than on abilities relevant to the intended role. Thus, employees only stop being promoted once they can no longer perform effectively, and "managers rise to the level of their incompetence."
jegutman 12y ago
To be clear, they fired her, they didn't just "not promote" her.

MagicWishMonkey 12y ago

Doing well in performance reviews doesn't mean much. It was pretty clear that she was not easy to work with, and a lot of her coworkers didn't like working with her. I have no doubt that she was a brilliant employee, but that doesn't really matter if no one wants to work with her. There's a reason why so many companies put a lot of emphasis on "culture fit".

jegutman 12y ago
She was a fine culture fit. I can tell you this because they kept her around for quite a while. Bad culture fits don't last, especially not at a well-run firm. Culture fits aren't soul mates, there are still normal difficulties and things to work through. People had trouble working with her possibly after she brought up issues of sexual harassment and discrimination, but there's actually something under the law to protect her from this, anti-retaliation laws, which she tried to sue Kleiner over and lost, but that part of the case definitely seemed like there was some merit to although possibly not enough to meet a preponderance of the evidence.
- growupkids 12y ago
  In reality bad culture hires stick around because most people are polite and assume it's just them, and They give difficult people second chances, they put up with them for a long time because they're not used to being around people that are that "off". So you can't assume just because someone isn't dismissed quickly that they automatically were a good hire. I've seen plenty of bad hires kept around because people were unable to grok why this person was difficult. They give them lots of second chances and it took time before everyone finally gave up. I'm not saying that's what happened here, what I am saying is you can't jump to a conclusion that because someone wasn't fired that means they were a good fit.
- trhway 11y ago
  > I can tell you this because they kept her around for quite a while. what alternative did they have? A lawsuit "they gave me bad performance/fired me because i'm a woman"? A lawsuit which they would lose with much higher probability and much higher damages. They could only wait until she leaves on her own. >People had trouble working with her possibly after she brought up issues of sexual harassment and discrimination People had trouble working with her possibly because she is a total jerk - she complained that the assistant of her colleague was sending brain scans of dying from cancer mother from office. Wrt. promotion - promotion isn't something employee is entitled to. If you think company doesn't value you enough - get an offer at other place and you will immediately see how much your company really values you. Did Kleiner tried to keep her when she was leaving? Seems like they didn't. Why? Because she is a woman? Now at Reddit she installed "no negotiation" hiring policy. She seems to be unaware that in case of good employees it isn't the prospective employee who negotiates, it really his current employer who doesn't want the employee to leave. Probably her former employers has always just let her leave easy, without counters :)

tsotha 12y ago

She slept with a coworker. Who does this without realizing one of you may have to go?

zak_mc_kracken 11y ago
Hundreds of thousands of people do this on a daily basis without having to leave their job.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- tsotha 11y ago
  And yet a whole lot of them do end up leaving. If you carry on an office romance, particularly when one or both of you is married, that's a possibility. I've seen it at my office - it's pretty common for people to be unable to work together after the breakup.