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I attended an elite UK university having had a poor upbringing. This article reads painfully to me. I don't have the words to describe why, but I can try. The

I attended an elite UK university having had a poor upbringing. This article reads painfully to me. I don't have the words to describe why, but I can try. The closest I can come is to say that this idea of inclusiveness is terminally broken. It's a sort of bandage over a huge chasm of differences. For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. Change the accent, the clothes, the pop culture references, the 'back home...' stories. Avoid the discussions about parents. The list goes on. My transition into adulthood at present is essentially a game of throwing away my connections to that past. Not intentionally, but because living a double life is just too difficult. Visiting my hometown I feel like more of a tourist each time. Money is a huge divider, the gulf between the working class and middle classes in this regard is enormous. I am hardwired to assume that people cannot afford anything. My basic instinct is to design activities that are free. Wealthier people do not always appreciate this. They might want to go and do something more expensive - and why not? They can. Friendship groups. I could waffle on seemingly forever but words can't really express how odd I find all of this. Different species...

kelukelugames 12y ago
> For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. Yes! Thank you for using the perfect word for how I feel. I'm sure rich people have "rich people baggage" but I believe they are either a) not a deal blocker or b) mitigated by their advantages. Edit: I have a few 1% friends. As far as I can tell, rich people baggage is usually complaining about money.
- taurath 12y ago
  Rich people baggage comes out whenever they don't have full control of a situation.
dbbolton 12y ago
>For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. Change the accent, the clothes, the pop culture references, the 'back home...' stories. Avoid the discussions about parents. The list goes on. This sounds like a perfect summary of Dick Whitman's transition into Don Draper.
- s_q_b 12y ago
  I was thinking Gatsby, which echoed a lot of how Fitzgerald felt at Princeton.
  - dbbolton 12y ago
    Even better since Draper never went to college.
    - s_q_b 12y ago
      Indeed, old sport.
dsp1234 12y ago
I too also grew up poor, but find myself in a position where I have a very nice job, and I also have a hard time articulating to other's how warped I feel about money/status/etc. The best I've ever found is John Cheese's Cracked articles on the topic which I felt were almost like he was writing from inside of my head. http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-develop-growing-up-poor/ http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-devel... http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-develop-growing-up-poor-part-2/ http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-devel... If someone reads these, please understand that this is how I actually feel/act to this day, even though I make 100k+ a year. For example, I only own two pairs of shoes. My work sneakers, and my "nice" shoes. And I replace my sneakers only when they are completely busted, and I get the cheapest ones on sale I can find. Three pairs of shoes is literally crazy to me, and I feel bad about having 2 pairs of shoes since I never wear the "nice" ones.
- spiritplumber 12y ago
  "The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness." Good shoes will save you money if you can put in the initial investment :)
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - dsp1234 12y ago
mc32 12y ago
I dunno. I went to a state uni and worked my way thru school. Yeah I get it, there were times your feel out of place. People able to go to nice places during holidays, etc. But my god, I didn't feel inferior just because I could not afford those things. Sure there were times dates consisted of taking a trip on mass transit somewhere you have never been just to see what's there. But hell, you're going to school so you can make a better living in the future and afford some comfort later. I think the issue is you have to feel sure of yourself and not let peer envy infiltrate your thinking. I also had no misgivings about asking for professor time --that's what they were there for. I think you feel out of place if you somehow believe you must conform to the in crowd. I never liked joining formal groups etc. It's antithetical to me, even when I agree or have commonality with a group because ultimately it's you against the world and no ones going to help.
- stegosaurus 12y ago
  Ah, but you see, that's my point. It's not inferiority, or lack of confidence. I didn't 'feel' out of place. I was out of place - the whole thing was out of place. The article seems to focus on the 'bad', as if there's an injustice perpetrated against poor students. But it doesn't work like that. The people just inhabit different worlds, the mutual understanding is limited, it requires effort rather than being automatic. I would draw an analogy with being an immigrant. There's no real conspiracy, you're just different. Learning the local language, the customs, etc, will help you succeed. But in performing this act of assimilation, you lose a part of what was there before. The ones you left behind are different now. I agree that not asking for professor time is just odd. I had no problem at all competing intellectually in my chosen field. It was just everything surrounding that.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    SO, its natural and right that schools should be tailored for the rich? That's not an injustice? Remember, these are tax-exempt institutions.
    - stegosaurus 12y ago
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jheriko 12y ago
Its hard to take the article very seriously from the title, but it does make for a slightly cringeworthy read. As someone from a very poor background (actual poor - starving in africa poor, not US overprivileged 'I can eat for free out of bins' poor, but this is all relative...) I can sympathise somewhat too. I agree with the point made here in this comment- personally, I never felt like I had the kind of disadvantages described in this article, and I'm sure its partly because I pass very well for an upper middle-class man thanks to a spiffing british accent I inherited from my mother - and partly down to a tremendous effort socially. I've always presented my background as exotic and interesting rather than woeful and sympathy-worthy. All that being said, I am now doing quite well and earn a considerable amount of money, but still always find myself broke at the end of the month... its shameful. A very rich man once said to me that if you act like a rich person eventually you would find yourself to be rich... I think there is an element of truth in that.
- protomyth 12y ago
  "I pass very well for an upper middle-class man thanks to a spiffing british accent I inherited from my mother" Its amazing how a "upper crust" accent will play versus something something considered "low class". Its one of those hidden assumptions that adults make. I have a deep, loud voice that was tinged with a rez accent and quite a lot of slang. Watch a kid react to Mater from Cars versus an adult. The story of the voice acting for that part worldwide is quite interesting.
  - jheriko 12y ago
    thanks for that little gem about Mater's voice. looking at efforts spent on voices around the world in high quality productions is always interesting (in high quality dubs, even ambient background conversation is re-recorded, for example), and a strong reminder of how US-centric a lot of media is. people still build 'new' software with ansi strings after all... :)
- AnimalMuppet 12y ago
  > A very rich man once said to me that if you act like a rich person eventually you would find yourself to be rich... I think there is an element of truth in that. Unfortunately, there is also truth in the idea that if you act like you're rich, you end up poor, because you wind up spending all you have (probably plus some).
yitchelle 12y ago
> For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. Change the accent, the clothes, the pop culture references, the 'back home...' stories. Avoid the discussions about parents. The list goes on. I feel terribly sad that I read this statement. Sure, you would want to discard your baggage have a better life for yourself and your family, and increasing your financial wealth will help you get there. However, it should not be the other way around. Becoming wealthy should not because of what you are discarding. Changing does not always means discarding.
staunch 12y ago
> For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. That baggage is what makes so many upper class people despise being around poor people. It's also why every exclusive club interviews people under the guise of a "cultural fit" policy, or what they sometimes call a "no asshole rule" to avoid criticism, when in reality it's almost always just self-deluded bigotry. The proof is in how homogeneously upper class, even when otherwise diverse, most "elite" organization are. If they were actually merit based, you would necessarily see incredible diversity in class. Instead, everywhere, you see organizations made up of the wealthy descendants of wealthy people.
curiously 12y ago
you need to get new friends.
mbesto 12y ago
> The closest I can come is to say that this idea of inclusiveness is terminally broken. The term "inclusiveness" is utter bullshit. (no criticism towards you OP) The idea of "trying to include everyone with diverse backgrounds" was created by top leaders who wanted to prop themselves up even more by characterizing themselves as benevolent stewards. Hint - they're usually not. Let's face reality - we're naturally biased and we still don't have any definitive, scalable way to select (include) other human beings without our short-minded biases blinding us.
vcxzxcv 12y ago
Thanks for this post. I'm debating applying to a state University right now. Coming from a poor background (and still being poor) I find it hard to relate to a lot of my peers. You speak of "dropping baggage", and for me, this is next to impossible because of my poor dental health. As soon as I open my mouth people assume I must be some meth head. My mom has dementia and can barely take care of her self and my dad is struggling with COPD. I'm not going to go further into my home life because I'm not looking for pity. I'm one the best math students at my current school and calculus is fun for me. I'm the only person I know that knows how to program, none of the other students I've met are interested in computers at all. The students that are performing at the same level as I am seem (to me) to be "elites". I find my self becoming more and more cynical each day listening to complaints about having an old model of iPhone or "having to go to Paris with dad" (someone really said this), when all I have is a flip phone and I've never ridden on a plane. I told my self a few years ago I was going to learn to program because it seemed to be something that anyone could do (as long as you have a computer and internet access), seemed to be growing, and seemed to be high paying. I've gotten pretty good, but I still have a ways to go. Now I'm at the point where I can leave my disabled parents for school and let my teeth continue to decay and deal with that social stigma, or I can get a job doing tech support and hopefully help my situation a little faster. We'll see..
- mathattack 12y ago
  Hang in there! I don't mean to sound trite, but if your personal situation allows you to go to college, do it. It will pay off in the end. I stress personal situation. You'll always be able to fix your teeth later - after college you will be able to get a good job with good health insurance. (& that can help fix a lot of things) I'm not sure about your personal situation with your parents - I can't moralize on that. Good luck - it's tough to deal with.
  - taurath 12y ago
    Also may I say, as someone in a similar situation who chose to quickly get into work - do not only look at the economic benefits, but also the social benefits. You will meet so many people just going through college that are just like you, its a wonderful way to gain friends that will improve your whole life. In college the people you meet will be friends or at least acquaintances for a lot of your life. At work the second you or their leave a company you will likely not speak very much at all. Of course, it depends on the person as well - but know that that friendships and meeting people like you is one of the biggest reasons to go to college and does factor into your decision. There aren't a lot of institutions out there where you'll be able to do that outside of a job. Of course, with student loans being as they are, I'm not quite sure whats worse.
ubasu 12y ago
I would recommend reading these books by one Ruby Payne which explore such differences in detail: A framework for understanding poverty: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1929229488/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1929229488/ Crossing the Tracks for Love: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/192922933X/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/192922933X/ Hidden Rules of Class at Work: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1929229070/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1929229070/ In particular, she goes in to these very concerns about how on has to change their identity and mindset from their old world to be in the new world.
yodsanklai 12y ago
> I attended an elite UK university having had a poor upbringing. This article reads painfully to me. I don't have the words to describe why, but I can try. It's difficult to understand why. If anything, one should feel great pride to be able to attend an elite school while coming from a less privileged family (even though, being smart because of your genes is basically as random as being born in a rich family, so there shouldn't be any pride or shame either way!!).
matthewowen 12y ago
My experience of "an elite UK university" (quotes because I feel silly saying it) was different. Even amongst people from upper-middle class privileged backgrounds, I think there was a pretty large disparity between people whose parents gave them lots of money, and people whose parents expected them to live off their student loans entirely. I'm not saying that there weren't wealthy people who spent absurd amounts of money. There were. But there were also plenty of people who budgeted aggressively, and made things like formal hall and pregaming before going to student clubnights on a Thursday night the highpoint of discretionary expenditure. I don't come from a wealthy background. Because of when I started university, my parents were just outside the bracket that would have got be grants and bursaries (if I'd started a year later, they'd have been in it). Grew up in an ex-council house, dad worked down the mines, yadda yadda (I hate getting into the thing of "Look how working class MY upbringing was" but there you go). But I definitely didn't feel excluded. I suppose there probably were high-spending friendship groups that I didn't fit into. I can't say I felt like I missed out. You're never going to fit into every friendship group. I'm assuming you went to Oxbridge. If not, maybe it is different. I certainly felt like there were a lot of fairly income independent activities that were applicable no matter your background. Pretty much everyone can go to formal hall, or to a bop, or even to events at the Union. At least in your first few years, those things are pretty central to social lives for a lot of students. I don't know. I feel like my post is a little pointless: "I don't agree with your experience". Experiences aren't really up for debate. You experienced it, you felt it, it was real. I guess I just feel differently. Sometimes you have to say that.
- stegosaurus 12y ago
  I feel we don't actually disagree. I didn't have the sort of 'ski trip' nonsense. I mean it existed but didn't really affect me. The subtle things do though. I had never met a middle class person in my age group before going to University. It's not just wealth. It's dinner, it's Radio 4, it's video games, it's national parks not Butlins. These things aren't really categorically 'superior', that's the thing. But they are kind of assumed in a way that doesn't happen for, say, immigrants. (I grew up in a council house, not ex. but the african dude above has us both beat. :D)
sliverstorm 12y ago
The same thing happens just by attending college, as education is also a divider. I tend to associate with people who have degrees, and have lost touch with friends from my past who graduated high school and work in stockrooms. We simply live in different worlds. I think any time you try to migrate to a different group you wind up leaving things behind. Gain something, lose something. Which, I don't know, seems OK to me. Accents, clothes, and pop culture references might be dear to people for whom culture is all they have. But to me they hold no value by themselves. I wouldn't, for example, avoid an education just so I can cling to the culture I am currently in. Also, at least among the people I know, a lot of us come from very different backgrounds. Nobody hides their family and their hometown but none of us can relate to eachother's childhoods, so we just don't talk about it a whole lot. Which is OK too. Anyway, migrating groups I think is always a surreal experience, as is visiting groups you don't belong to.
welshguy 12y ago
Similar story here. South Wales steel town -> Oxford (Engineering Science). Late 1970s. I'm certainly wealthier than my parents and home town peers (you can still - easily - buy a reasonable 4 bedroom house there for 100K) but the baggage is still a burden. To misquote a popular aphorism: You can take a man out of the poverty, but you can never take the poverty out of a man.
Squarel 12y ago
I agree, and I have not even gone to an "elite" university. I attend a standard university outside of the UK, so no one here even knows my upbringing, but it is still there. Even though no one here is looking down on me, or cares what I wear, or thinks I sound a certain way (they all love that English accent ;) ), to me, I feel like I do not fit into their world. Things I consider "posh" or "middle class" feel alien to me, and I am aware that I have a defensive response which means I try to make fun of people baking their own bread, or going on foraging sessions for food, even though I actually really wish I had the slightest idea how to do it, and did not feel like such an idiot for being a beginner at both. People are quite happy to teach me how to make bread from scratch, or how to recognise mushrooms, so the feeling awkward is all from my side, and I know it is a problem I need to deal with. Coupled with the feeling uncomfortable in my new social environment is the comments I get from back home "Oh, so you think you are better than us now?". I spent 10 years prior to university pretending I could not do maths, and had no interest in intellectual subjects, and it is a hard learned behaviour to shake, and unfortunately, it took me several years at university to become comfortable discussing intellectual topics, without defaulting to my past behaviour. For me, that, rather than money is the divider. Everyone at uni is on student income, so all relatively broke, and university here is free, with the government giving us money each month as well, but the attitudes I grew up with and around are a whole different story, and it is those which hold me back at times.

kelukelugames 12y ago

> For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. Yes! Thank you for using the perfect word for how I feel. I'm sure rich people have "rich people baggage" but I believe they are either a) not a deal blocker or b) mitigated by their advantages. Edit: I have a few 1% friends. As far as I can tell, rich people baggage is usually complaining about money.

taurath 12y ago
Rich people baggage comes out whenever they don't have full control of a situation.

dbbolton 12y ago

s_q_b 12y ago
I was thinking Gatsby, which echoed a lot of how Fitzgerald felt at Princeton.
- dbbolton 12y ago
  Even better since Draper never went to college.
  - s_q_b 12y ago
    Indeed, old sport.

dsp1234 12y ago

I too also grew up poor, but find myself in a position where I have a very nice job, and I also have a hard time articulating to other's how warped I feel about money/status/etc. The best I've ever found is John Cheese's Cracked articles on the topic which I felt were almost like he was writing from inside of my head. http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-develop-growing-up-poor/ http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-devel... http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-develop-growing-up-poor-part-2/ http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-devel... If someone reads these, please understand that this is how I actually feel/act to this day, even though I make 100k+ a year. For example, I only own two pairs of shoes. My work sneakers, and my "nice" shoes. And I replace my sneakers only when they are completely busted, and I get the cheapest ones on sale I can find. Three pairs of shoes is literally crazy to me, and I feel bad about having 2 pairs of shoes since I never wear the "nice" ones.

spiritplumber 12y ago
"The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness." Good shoes will save you money if you can put in the initial investment :)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- dsp1234 12y ago

mc32 12y ago

I dunno. I went to a state uni and worked my way thru school. Yeah I get it, there were times your feel out of place. People able to go to nice places during holidays, etc. But my god, I didn't feel inferior just because I could not afford those things. Sure there were times dates consisted of taking a trip on mass transit somewhere you have never been just to see what's there. But hell, you're going to school so you can make a better living in the future and afford some comfort later. I think the issue is you have to feel sure of yourself and not let peer envy infiltrate your thinking. I also had no misgivings about asking for professor time --that's what they were there for. I think you feel out of place if you somehow believe you must conform to the in crowd. I never liked joining formal groups etc. It's antithetical to me, even when I agree or have commonality with a group because ultimately it's you against the world and no ones going to help.

stegosaurus 12y ago
Ah, but you see, that's my point. It's not inferiority, or lack of confidence. I didn't 'feel' out of place. I was out of place - the whole thing was out of place. The article seems to focus on the 'bad', as if there's an injustice perpetrated against poor students. But it doesn't work like that. The people just inhabit different worlds, the mutual understanding is limited, it requires effort rather than being automatic. I would draw an analogy with being an immigrant. There's no real conspiracy, you're just different. Learning the local language, the customs, etc, will help you succeed. But in performing this act of assimilation, you lose a part of what was there before. The ones you left behind are different now. I agree that not asking for professor time is just odd. I had no problem at all competing intellectually in my chosen field. It was just everything surrounding that.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  SO, its natural and right that schools should be tailored for the rich? That's not an injustice? Remember, these are tax-exempt institutions.
  - stegosaurus 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

jheriko 12y ago

Its hard to take the article very seriously from the title, but it does make for a slightly cringeworthy read. As someone from a very poor background (actual poor - starving in africa poor, not US overprivileged 'I can eat for free out of bins' poor, but this is all relative...) I can sympathise somewhat too. I agree with the point made here in this comment- personally, I never felt like I had the kind of disadvantages described in this article, and I'm sure its partly because I pass very well for an upper middle-class man thanks to a spiffing british accent I inherited from my mother - and partly down to a tremendous effort socially. I've always presented my background as exotic and interesting rather than woeful and sympathy-worthy. All that being said, I am now doing quite well and earn a considerable amount of money, but still always find myself broke at the end of the month... its shameful. A very rich man once said to me that if you act like a rich person eventually you would find yourself to be rich... I think there is an element of truth in that.

protomyth 12y ago
"I pass very well for an upper middle-class man thanks to a spiffing british accent I inherited from my mother" Its amazing how a "upper crust" accent will play versus something something considered "low class". Its one of those hidden assumptions that adults make. I have a deep, loud voice that was tinged with a rez accent and quite a lot of slang. Watch a kid react to Mater from Cars versus an adult. The story of the voice acting for that part worldwide is quite interesting.
- jheriko 12y ago
  thanks for that little gem about Mater's voice. looking at efforts spent on voices around the world in high quality productions is always interesting (in high quality dubs, even ambient background conversation is re-recorded, for example), and a strong reminder of how US-centric a lot of media is. people still build 'new' software with ansi strings after all... :)
AnimalMuppet 12y ago
> A very rich man once said to me that if you act like a rich person eventually you would find yourself to be rich... I think there is an element of truth in that. Unfortunately, there is also truth in the idea that if you act like you're rich, you end up poor, because you wind up spending all you have (probably plus some).

yitchelle 12y ago

> For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. Change the accent, the clothes, the pop culture references, the 'back home...' stories. Avoid the discussions about parents. The list goes on. I feel terribly sad that I read this statement. Sure, you would want to discard your baggage have a better life for yourself and your family, and increasing your financial wealth will help you get there. However, it should not be the other way around. Becoming wealthy should not because of what you are discarding. Changing does not always means discarding.

staunch 12y ago

> For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. That baggage is what makes so many upper class people despise being around poor people. It's also why every exclusive club interviews people under the guise of a "cultural fit" policy, or what they sometimes call a "no asshole rule" to avoid criticism, when in reality it's almost always just self-deluded bigotry. The proof is in how homogeneously upper class, even when otherwise diverse, most "elite" organization are. If they were actually merit based, you would necessarily see incredible diversity in class. Instead, everywhere, you see organizations made up of the wealthy descendants of wealthy people.

curiously 12y ago

you need to get new friends.

mbesto 12y ago

> The closest I can come is to say that this idea of inclusiveness is terminally broken. The term "inclusiveness" is utter bullshit. (no criticism towards you OP) The idea of "trying to include everyone with diverse backgrounds" was created by top leaders who wanted to prop themselves up even more by characterizing themselves as benevolent stewards. Hint - they're usually not. Let's face reality - we're naturally biased and we still don't have any definitive, scalable way to select (include) other human beings without our short-minded biases blinding us.

vcxzxcv 12y ago

Thanks for this post. I'm debating applying to a state University right now. Coming from a poor background (and still being poor) I find it hard to relate to a lot of my peers. You speak of "dropping baggage", and for me, this is next to impossible because of my poor dental health. As soon as I open my mouth people assume I must be some meth head. My mom has dementia and can barely take care of her self and my dad is struggling with COPD. I'm not going to go further into my home life because I'm not looking for pity. I'm one the best math students at my current school and calculus is fun for me. I'm the only person I know that knows how to program, none of the other students I've met are interested in computers at all. The students that are performing at the same level as I am seem (to me) to be "elites". I find my self becoming more and more cynical each day listening to complaints about having an old model of iPhone or "having to go to Paris with dad" (someone really said this), when all I have is a flip phone and I've never ridden on a plane. I told my self a few years ago I was going to learn to program because it seemed to be something that anyone could do (as long as you have a computer and internet access), seemed to be growing, and seemed to be high paying. I've gotten pretty good, but I still have a ways to go. Now I'm at the point where I can leave my disabled parents for school and let my teeth continue to decay and deal with that social stigma, or I can get a job doing tech support and hopefully help my situation a little faster. We'll see..

mathattack 12y ago
Hang in there! I don't mean to sound trite, but if your personal situation allows you to go to college, do it. It will pay off in the end. I stress personal situation. You'll always be able to fix your teeth later - after college you will be able to get a good job with good health insurance. (& that can help fix a lot of things) I'm not sure about your personal situation with your parents - I can't moralize on that. Good luck - it's tough to deal with.
- taurath 12y ago
  Also may I say, as someone in a similar situation who chose to quickly get into work - do not only look at the economic benefits, but also the social benefits. You will meet so many people just going through college that are just like you, its a wonderful way to gain friends that will improve your whole life. In college the people you meet will be friends or at least acquaintances for a lot of your life. At work the second you or their leave a company you will likely not speak very much at all. Of course, it depends on the person as well - but know that that friendships and meeting people like you is one of the biggest reasons to go to college and does factor into your decision. There aren't a lot of institutions out there where you'll be able to do that outside of a job. Of course, with student loans being as they are, I'm not quite sure whats worse.

ubasu 12y ago

I would recommend reading these books by one Ruby Payne which explore such differences in detail: A framework for understanding poverty: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1929229488/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1929229488/ Crossing the Tracks for Love: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/192922933X/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/192922933X/ Hidden Rules of Class at Work: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1929229070/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1929229070/ In particular, she goes in to these very concerns about how on has to change their identity and mindset from their old world to be in the new world.

yodsanklai 12y ago

> I attended an elite UK university having had a poor upbringing. This article reads painfully to me. I don't have the words to describe why, but I can try. It's difficult to understand why. If anything, one should feel great pride to be able to attend an elite school while coming from a less privileged family (even though, being smart because of your genes is basically as random as being born in a rich family, so there shouldn't be any pride or shame either way!!).

matthewowen 12y ago

My experience of "an elite UK university" (quotes because I feel silly saying it) was different. Even amongst people from upper-middle class privileged backgrounds, I think there was a pretty large disparity between people whose parents gave them lots of money, and people whose parents expected them to live off their student loans entirely. I'm not saying that there weren't wealthy people who spent absurd amounts of money. There were. But there were also plenty of people who budgeted aggressively, and made things like formal hall and pregaming before going to student clubnights on a Thursday night the highpoint of discretionary expenditure. I don't come from a wealthy background. Because of when I started university, my parents were just outside the bracket that would have got be grants and bursaries (if I'd started a year later, they'd have been in it). Grew up in an ex-council house, dad worked down the mines, yadda yadda (I hate getting into the thing of "Look how working class MY upbringing was" but there you go). But I definitely didn't feel excluded. I suppose there probably were high-spending friendship groups that I didn't fit into. I can't say I felt like I missed out. You're never going to fit into every friendship group. I'm assuming you went to Oxbridge. If not, maybe it is different. I certainly felt like there were a lot of fairly income independent activities that were applicable no matter your background. Pretty much everyone can go to formal hall, or to a bop, or even to events at the Union. At least in your first few years, those things are pretty central to social lives for a lot of students. I don't know. I feel like my post is a little pointless: "I don't agree with your experience". Experiences aren't really up for debate. You experienced it, you felt it, it was real. I guess I just feel differently. Sometimes you have to say that.

stegosaurus 12y ago
I feel we don't actually disagree. I didn't have the sort of 'ski trip' nonsense. I mean it existed but didn't really affect me. The subtle things do though. I had never met a middle class person in my age group before going to University. It's not just wealth. It's dinner, it's Radio 4, it's video games, it's national parks not Butlins. These things aren't really categorically 'superior', that's the thing. But they are kind of assumed in a way that doesn't happen for, say, immigrants. (I grew up in a council house, not ex. but the african dude above has us both beat. :D)

sliverstorm 12y ago

The same thing happens just by attending college, as education is also a divider. I tend to associate with people who have degrees, and have lost touch with friends from my past who graduated high school and work in stockrooms. We simply live in different worlds. I think any time you try to migrate to a different group you wind up leaving things behind. Gain something, lose something. Which, I don't know, seems OK to me. Accents, clothes, and pop culture references might be dear to people for whom culture is all they have. But to me they hold no value by themselves. I wouldn't, for example, avoid an education just so I can cling to the culture I am currently in. Also, at least among the people I know, a lot of us come from very different backgrounds. Nobody hides their family and their hometown but none of us can relate to eachother's childhoods, so we just don't talk about it a whole lot. Which is OK too. Anyway, migrating groups I think is always a surreal experience, as is visiting groups you don't belong to.

welshguy 12y ago

Similar story here. South Wales steel town -> Oxford (Engineering Science). Late 1970s. I'm certainly wealthier than my parents and home town peers (you can still - easily - buy a reasonable 4 bedroom house there for 100K) but the baggage is still a burden. To misquote a popular aphorism: You can take a man out of the poverty, but you can never take the poverty out of a man.

Squarel 12y ago

I agree, and I have not even gone to an "elite" university. I attend a standard university outside of the UK, so no one here even knows my upbringing, but it is still there. Even though no one here is looking down on me, or cares what I wear, or thinks I sound a certain way (they all love that English accent ;) ), to me, I feel like I do not fit into their world. Things I consider "posh" or "middle class" feel alien to me, and I am aware that I have a defensive response which means I try to make fun of people baking their own bread, or going on foraging sessions for food, even though I actually really wish I had the slightest idea how to do it, and did not feel like such an idiot for being a beginner at both. People are quite happy to teach me how to make bread from scratch, or how to recognise mushrooms, so the feeling awkward is all from my side, and I know it is a problem I need to deal with. Coupled with the feeling uncomfortable in my new social environment is the comments I get from back home "Oh, so you think you are better than us now?". I spent 10 years prior to university pretending I could not do maths, and had no interest in intellectual subjects, and it is a hard learned behaviour to shake, and unfortunately, it took me several years at university to become comfortable discussing intellectual topics, without defaulting to my past behaviour. For me, that, rather than money is the divider. Everyone at uni is on student income, so all relatively broke, and university here is free, with the government giving us money each month as well, but the attitudes I grew up with and around are a whole different story, and it is those which hold me back at times.