8 ms·

At peak, Spain gets 53% of its energy from wind

70 points by zzkt 17y ago

*during high winds at 5:50am on a Sunday morning

Luc 17y ago
... last weekend at 5:50am on Sunday morning. Still impressive though.
chrisb 17y ago
Impressive. But the headline is slightly deceptive, as 53% is the maximum ever recorded. What's more impressive is the that over the 24 hours presented the contribution from wind never drops beneath 30%. Contrast this with the current UK renewables target of 15% by 2020 (http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/what_we_do/uk_supply/energy_mix/renewable/res/res.aspx http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/what_we_do/uk_supply/e...)
- electromagnetic 17y ago
  Spain receives colossal amounts of wind energy from the Sahara. IIRC winds have been known to continue without a break for weeks, if not months. When you have 9 million square kilometres to your south and an oceanic climate to your north, you tend to get a lot of wind. The reason the UK gets so little wind in comparison is that the prevailing wind comes directly from Spain, just a lot later. Although anyone who's spent a few years in the UK can testify, you either have a weak Saharan wind or a strong Siberian wind. The UK's best potential for renewable energy is if we ever get the technology to tap the gulf stream, as it wraps around the UK meaning it likely won't have to disrupt any shipping lanes. As the Gulf stream holds over 100 times the energy used yearly by the whole world, it could certainly be marginally tapped without any effect on the circulation. By marginally I mean we could likely supply the present day world without consequence.
  - narag 17y ago
    Where did you get your data from? Most of the time, here in Spain, the wind come from the Atlantic Ocean, from an area a hundred miles to the west of UK. And it's nothing special, compared with France, AFAICT. The wind from the east blows a half as often and it's only strong near Tarifa.
- dbz 17y ago
  I don't see how it is deceptive. It's stated quite plainly that it is a record, and not a normal occurrence. (None of this is spoken in a harsh, rude, or sarcastic tone.) How would you say it differently? (Real question.)
  - iujhgfvvgbhnj 17y ago
    The title suggests peak energy demand, in fact it achieved it at minimum energy demand (early hours of Sunday morning) It's like an airport saying that all it's flights were on time at peak - then saying that they didn't mean thanksgiving, they meant that on sunay morning they peaked by getting both flights out on time.
  - chrisb 17y ago
    The headline has been edited since I made the comment. It originally didn't start "At peak". It is now more representative of the article.
- lallysingh 17y ago
  Hmm, I don't know if I'm so jaded by bs news attention grabbing at this point or what, but I assumed that it hitting 53% was the news story, hence it being an event (and implicitly, a peak), not a steady-state average.
aneesh 17y ago
This, while impressive, is not a routine occurrence. It was due to abnormally high winds. Consider the following quotes from the Guardian article: "High winds over the weekend supplied 53% of Spain's electricity" "Experts estimate that by the end of the year, Spain will have provided a quarter of its energy needs with renewables, with wind leading the way ..." http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/09/spain-national-record-power-windfarms http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/09/spain-nati...
- shaddi 17y ago
  The linked article is a bit ambiguous, but remember that electricity is a subset of a country's total energy needs.
ipartola 17y ago
This is definitely a step in the right direction. However consider this: what about all of the products that are imported into Spain that are not produced using wind power. When we consider energy consumption we need to consider all consumption, not just what goes into the grid or how we heat our homes. One of he most energy intensive industries is agriculture where producing fertilizers and pesticides takes enormous amounts of energy. Note also that as with many other industrialized nations Spain imports more goods than it exports (http://www.fita.org/countries/spain.html http://www.fita.org/countries/spain.html) and much of the imported goods come from less developed countries where there is much less emphasis on clean energy.
zzkt 17y ago
*during high winds, at 5:50 on a Sunday morning
pieter 17y ago
I think this blogpost debunks this pretty good: http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2009/11/spanish-wind-power-exposed.html http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2009/11/spanish-wind-power-exposed... Spain only gets about 9% of energy from renewables on average, which is much less than a lot of other countries. The 53% number is very deceptive IMHO, and really shows that you can't count on wind for reliable energy.
- ghshephard 17y ago
  Not debunking at all, the first words in the article were: "Ok, not all the time, but last weekend at 5:50am on Sunday morning (8th Nov) Spain set a new record, hitting 53.7%" Which instantly made it clear that this was an exception. I don't think anybody is suggesting that you can provide all of your power requirements from Wind, but - clearly, Wind can be an important part of your renewable portfolio in some cases. Obviously Solar, GeoThermal, Hydroelectric, Conservation, Efficiency all have important roles to play as well.
  - pieter 17y ago
    The title of this post was edited after I posted, it was something like "Spain gets 53% of its energy from wind" first.
    - TomRaftery 17y ago
      As the author of the article I can categorically refute this. The title of this article was never edited. And WordPress has obligingly saved all of the post revisions so I can quite easily prove this, if necessary.
      - pg 17y ago
        He means the title on HN.
  - pbhjpbhj 17y ago
    Some people do, not by living in perpetually windy environments but by reducing consumption and using stored energy supply (eg batteries but pumping water to provide hydroelectric which can be used at any time is also a possibility).
sketerpot 17y ago
And most of the time, it has much lower wind production, and they make up the difference by burning a lot of natural gas. This sort of thing is why the natural gas companies like wind so much.
kilps 17y ago
For everyone who keeps saying that this is only at peak, that doesn't mean that it isn't important. If you can generate that much wind, then store the energy with pumped storage - you are still getting far more overall renewable energy than you would have otherwise.
- sketerpot 17y ago
  Assuming perfect energy storage, the number you want is the average power production. You get this by multiplying the maximum output by the capacity factor, which is 21-23% in Spain.
narag 17y ago
I can't see it from the article: are they talking about total generated energy or consumed? In Spain our government has banned new nuclear plants, so we have to buy electricity from France, that produces it using nuclear plants anyway. The high percentages of wind power is no wonder. There are a lot of generators installed.
- adrinavarro 17y ago
  > so we have to buy electricity from France No, you're really wrong. Just have a look at our realtime demand & generation graphs: http://www.ree.es/operacion/curvas_demanda.asp http://www.ree.es/operacion/curvas_demanda.asp (right side) As I write this, it's 2h05 (15-nov). We actually have some spare energy, and we only import energy when we expect spikes (mostly by night). Right now, we're using exactly 1% of imported energy (..who said from france?). Also, at 22h45 (14nov) we were exporting about 4% of our energy. And we exported between ~4% and ~3% of our energy on the 22h to midnight term. Yesterday (14-nov) we used between 0.5% and 1% of imported energy between 21h and 22h. And between midnight and ~3h in the morning, we're expecting to import between 2% (that actually was at midnight) and 0.5% (for the next 4 hours). By the way, there's a clear policy about new nuclear plants: avoided if we can (because we still have some spare energy). We rely on combined cycle (17% as I'm writing this), wind (18%) and nuclear (26%). So, nuclear is still here. But don't need more. And, what we import is pretty ridiculous (we export much more than we import). ... Hey, we have nice-looking, nifty graphics, with real-time data! Please, use them! :)
- barredo 17y ago
  > so we have to buy electricity from France Lie. Year Electricity - imports (million kWh) 2000 9000 2001 11945 2002 12166 2003 7588 2004 7588 2005 9800 2006 8700 2007 8300 2008 8773 2009 8773 Year Electricity - exports (million kWh) 2000 5600 2001 6230 2002 7832 2003 4138 2004 4138 2005 4400 2006 7500 2007 11400 2008 14520 2009 14520 Source: Cia Factbook. More: http://twitpic.com/5zscj/full http://twitpic.com/5zscj/full And more: http://twitpic.com/5zxm3/full http://twitpic.com/5zxm3/full 2nd chart show how much % of Portuguese electricity is imported from Spain Source: Red Electrica Española (Spanish grid operator) France exports electricity to other countries such as Belgium and such (70k kWh last year) Last link shows consuption, production, imports and exports of electricty in Spain: http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=79&v=81&v=82&v=83&c=sp&l=en http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=79&v=81&v=82&#3...
cgherb911 17y ago
As a kite surfer I enjoyed your post.
taw 17y ago
53% of electricity is way below 53% of energy. And that's just peak, wind gets average utilization of 30%.

70 points by zzkt 17y ago

*during high winds at 5:50am on a Sunday morning

Luc 17y ago

... last weekend at 5:50am on Sunday morning. Still impressive though.

chrisb 17y ago

Impressive. But the headline is slightly deceptive, as 53% is the maximum ever recorded. What's more impressive is the that over the 24 hours presented the contribution from wind never drops beneath 30%. Contrast this with the current UK renewables target of 15% by 2020 (http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/what_we_do/uk_supply/energy_mix/renewable/res/res.aspx http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/what_we_do/uk_supply/e...)

electromagnetic 17y ago
Spain receives colossal amounts of wind energy from the Sahara. IIRC winds have been known to continue without a break for weeks, if not months. When you have 9 million square kilometres to your south and an oceanic climate to your north, you tend to get a lot of wind. The reason the UK gets so little wind in comparison is that the prevailing wind comes directly from Spain, just a lot later. Although anyone who's spent a few years in the UK can testify, you either have a weak Saharan wind or a strong Siberian wind. The UK's best potential for renewable energy is if we ever get the technology to tap the gulf stream, as it wraps around the UK meaning it likely won't have to disrupt any shipping lanes. As the Gulf stream holds over 100 times the energy used yearly by the whole world, it could certainly be marginally tapped without any effect on the circulation. By marginally I mean we could likely supply the present day world without consequence.
- narag 17y ago
  Where did you get your data from? Most of the time, here in Spain, the wind come from the Atlantic Ocean, from an area a hundred miles to the west of UK. And it's nothing special, compared with France, AFAICT. The wind from the east blows a half as often and it's only strong near Tarifa.
dbz 17y ago
I don't see how it is deceptive. It's stated quite plainly that it is a record, and not a normal occurrence. (None of this is spoken in a harsh, rude, or sarcastic tone.) How would you say it differently? (Real question.)
- iujhgfvvgbhnj 17y ago
  The title suggests peak energy demand, in fact it achieved it at minimum energy demand (early hours of Sunday morning) It's like an airport saying that all it's flights were on time at peak - then saying that they didn't mean thanksgiving, they meant that on sunay morning they peaked by getting both flights out on time.
- chrisb 17y ago
  The headline has been edited since I made the comment. It originally didn't start "At peak". It is now more representative of the article.
lallysingh 17y ago
Hmm, I don't know if I'm so jaded by bs news attention grabbing at this point or what, but I assumed that it hitting 53% was the news story, hence it being an event (and implicitly, a peak), not a steady-state average.

aneesh 17y ago

This, while impressive, is not a routine occurrence. It was due to abnormally high winds. Consider the following quotes from the Guardian article: "High winds over the weekend supplied 53% of Spain's electricity" "Experts estimate that by the end of the year, Spain will have provided a quarter of its energy needs with renewables, with wind leading the way ..." http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/09/spain-national-record-power-windfarms http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/09/spain-nati...

shaddi 17y ago
The linked article is a bit ambiguous, but remember that electricity is a subset of a country's total energy needs.

ipartola 17y ago

This is definitely a step in the right direction. However consider this: what about all of the products that are imported into Spain that are not produced using wind power. When we consider energy consumption we need to consider all consumption, not just what goes into the grid or how we heat our homes. One of he most energy intensive industries is agriculture where producing fertilizers and pesticides takes enormous amounts of energy. Note also that as with many other industrialized nations Spain imports more goods than it exports (http://www.fita.org/countries/spain.html http://www.fita.org/countries/spain.html) and much of the imported goods come from less developed countries where there is much less emphasis on clean energy.

zzkt 17y ago

*during high winds, at 5:50 on a Sunday morning

pieter 17y ago

I think this blogpost debunks this pretty good: http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2009/11/spanish-wind-power-exposed.html http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2009/11/spanish-wind-power-exposed... Spain only gets about 9% of energy from renewables on average, which is much less than a lot of other countries. The 53% number is very deceptive IMHO, and really shows that you can't count on wind for reliable energy.

ghshephard 17y ago
Not debunking at all, the first words in the article were: "Ok, not all the time, but last weekend at 5:50am on Sunday morning (8th Nov) Spain set a new record, hitting 53.7%" Which instantly made it clear that this was an exception. I don't think anybody is suggesting that you can provide all of your power requirements from Wind, but - clearly, Wind can be an important part of your renewable portfolio in some cases. Obviously Solar, GeoThermal, Hydroelectric, Conservation, Efficiency all have important roles to play as well.
- pieter 17y ago
  The title of this post was edited after I posted, it was something like "Spain gets 53% of its energy from wind" first.
  - TomRaftery 17y ago
    As the author of the article I can categorically refute this. The title of this article was never edited. And WordPress has obligingly saved all of the post revisions so I can quite easily prove this, if necessary.
    - pg 17y ago
      He means the title on HN.
- pbhjpbhj 17y ago
  Some people do, not by living in perpetually windy environments but by reducing consumption and using stored energy supply (eg batteries but pumping water to provide hydroelectric which can be used at any time is also a possibility).

sketerpot 17y ago

And most of the time, it has much lower wind production, and they make up the difference by burning a lot of natural gas. This sort of thing is why the natural gas companies like wind so much.

kilps 17y ago

For everyone who keeps saying that this is only at peak, that doesn't mean that it isn't important. If you can generate that much wind, then store the energy with pumped storage - you are still getting far more overall renewable energy than you would have otherwise.

sketerpot 17y ago
Assuming perfect energy storage, the number you want is the average power production. You get this by multiplying the maximum output by the capacity factor, which is 21-23% in Spain.

narag 17y ago

I can't see it from the article: are they talking about total generated energy or consumed? In Spain our government has banned new nuclear plants, so we have to buy electricity from France, that produces it using nuclear plants anyway. The high percentages of wind power is no wonder. There are a lot of generators installed.

adrinavarro 17y ago
> so we have to buy electricity from France No, you're really wrong. Just have a look at our realtime demand & generation graphs: http://www.ree.es/operacion/curvas_demanda.asp http://www.ree.es/operacion/curvas_demanda.asp (right side) As I write this, it's 2h05 (15-nov). We actually have some spare energy, and we only import energy when we expect spikes (mostly by night). Right now, we're using exactly 1% of imported energy (..who said from france?). Also, at 22h45 (14nov) we were exporting about 4% of our energy. And we exported between ~4% and ~3% of our energy on the 22h to midnight term. Yesterday (14-nov) we used between 0.5% and 1% of imported energy between 21h and 22h. And between midnight and ~3h in the morning, we're expecting to import between 2% (that actually was at midnight) and 0.5% (for the next 4 hours). By the way, there's a clear policy about new nuclear plants: avoided if we can (because we still have some spare energy). We rely on combined cycle (17% as I'm writing this), wind (18%) and nuclear (26%). So, nuclear is still here. But don't need more. And, what we import is pretty ridiculous (we export much more than we import). ... Hey, we have nice-looking, nifty graphics, with real-time data! Please, use them! :)
barredo 17y ago
> so we have to buy electricity from France Lie. Year Electricity - imports (million kWh) 2000 9000 2001 11945 2002 12166 2003 7588 2004 7588 2005 9800 2006 8700 2007 8300 2008 8773 2009 8773 Year Electricity - exports (million kWh) 2000 5600 2001 6230 2002 7832 2003 4138 2004 4138 2005 4400 2006 7500 2007 11400 2008 14520 2009 14520 Source: Cia Factbook. More: http://twitpic.com/5zscj/full http://twitpic.com/5zscj/full And more: http://twitpic.com/5zxm3/full http://twitpic.com/5zxm3/full 2nd chart show how much % of Portuguese electricity is imported from Spain Source: Red Electrica Española (Spanish grid operator) France exports electricity to other countries such as Belgium and such (70k kWh last year) Last link shows consuption, production, imports and exports of electricty in Spain: http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=79&v=81&v=82&v=83&c=sp&l=en http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=79&v=81&v=82&#3...

cgherb911 17y ago

As a kite surfer I enjoyed your post.

taw 17y ago

53% of electricity is way below 53% of energy. And that's just peak, wind gets average utilization of 30%.