7 ms·

Seattle Police Will Hire Programmer and Prolific Records Requester Tim Clemans

111 points by deegles 12y ago

danso 12y ago
> He'll make $22.60 an hour and start on May 6. If all goes well, Clemans will stay on as a full-time staffer. Uh, seriously? This is less than what high school kids routinely get paid to do HTML ($30/hr, and that was in the 90s)
- jrbancel 12y ago
  It is ridiculous, especially considering how well SPD officers are being paid... http://www.seattle.gov/policejobs/benefits-and-salary/salary http://www.seattle.gov/policejobs/benefits-and-salary/salary
  - lsiebert 12y ago
    Yet, he developed a fair bit of software for this free already. Sometimes people do things for the public good. Plus you know he's going to be hired somewhere else after this if he wants to, and if he owns the software he develops, he can make bank.
    - williamstein 12y ago
      I know Tim personally, since he contributed for years to the SageMath software project while he was in high school here in Seattle. He is an extremely sincere person, who care intensely about things (like open source software), and has little interest or motivation related to money. The potential that he could have any impact that could improve the terrible police/people interactions even a little in Seattle is I'm sure all he cares about. I very much wish him the best.
      - bch 12y ago
        Whether or not he cares about his bank balance doesn't change what fair compensation is. If you frame this as "you can donate $10 to your favorite cause, or $50", the rate might seem more meaningful.
- johnl1479 12y ago
  Devil's advocate here, but it is for a 90 day "probationary" period > initially, at least, on a three-month trial basis to work on redaction and disclosure of data.
- krapp 12y ago
  >This is less than what high school kids routinely get paid to do HTML The '90s ended a long time ago.
  - danso 12y ago
    In the 90s, $30 was $46 in today's dollars...so while the value of basic front-end code has declined...so has the value of $30.
    - krapp 12y ago
      Still, people make far less per hour doing far more than basic front-end work today. Don't get me wrong, I think he should make as much as he can get away with making, but 22.00 an hour really isn't scraping the bottom of the barrel for programming work in a lot of places, not even in the US.
      - learc83 12y ago
        $22 an hour for programming is definitely scrapping the bottom of the barrel in the US (unless you're an intern or trainee). I live in a pretty cheap area of the US, and the only place I've seen jobs paying that poorly is on odesk (and most of these jobs are taken by people in low cost of living countries). If you're working for $22 an hour, you're selling yourself short.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- PhasmaFelis 12y ago
  That is definitely not "routine" pay for high school kids writing HTML in any year. Sounds like you hit a clueless marketeer who had been huffing the dot-com bubble. Hacker News has a disproportionate population of people who work in fields and locations where you can easily expect to make six figures straight out of college, and as a result HN has some seriously skewed ideas about how much money is "real" money. When I got my first programming job (in the mid-'00s, in a town with a population of ~250,000) I made $15 an hour. I was absolutely delighted to get it, and it was enough to live well and save some money besides. Of course, $22.60 in modern Seattle is less impressive, depending on whether he lives in the city proper or in the suburbs. But you can't expect tax-funded jobs to have the same kind of ridiculous salaries that Amazon and Google can afford to pay. And the guy's an activist. This has got to be a dream job for him--a chance to make a difference in something he's passionate about. Some things are worth more than money.
theophrastus 12y ago
This is nigh Sun_Tzu/genius of Seattle's creative (female) chief of police: if there is a capable pest working against you, invite them in, and have them work for you.
- jsprogrammer 12y ago
  What does gender have to do with anything? Disclosure will progress towards real-time: gathered not only by officers, but by any other person as well. Props to Seattle for being slightly ahead of the curve.
  - theophrastus 12y ago
    How many female chiefs of police are there in the states? I was just including it to support your deeply insightful observation that Seattle (generally) tends to be "slightly ahead of the curve".
  - chucksmash 12y ago
    It's kind of an odd juxtaposition of thoughts but I get the impression GP was just pointing that the chief of police is female (which I'd naively imagine bucks the general trend).
  - mattgrice 12y ago
    Seattle PD is under a DOJ consent decree because of a pattern of excessive force and discriminatory policing. She is perceived to be an outsider brought in to disrupt the good old boys' club. Her status as an outsider is very relevant in this context, and female police officers have a MUCH better track record on use of excessive force. Source: http://womenandpolicing.com/PDF/2002_Excessive_Force.pdf http://womenandpolicing.com/PDF/2002_Excessive_Force.pdf
  - octatoan 12y ago
    He's probably poking fun at the "gurls arent creative loool' trope.
ars 12y ago
This is what every activist needs to do. Unhappy at how a government agency works? Apply for a job and change it from within. Agencies are made of people. I saw a story a while ago about how the CIA was having trouble finding people to hire, because of Snowden. This is backwards! People should be jumping to work there and make the place better. For example, Zoos used to be quite different from how they are run today. What changed? People who loved animals figured it would be a neat place to work. Over time zoos have changed to conservation and public education oriented places, instead of public exhibition places.
- cheald 12y ago
  > People should be jumping to work there and make the place better. You don't just get to sign up to work for the CIA and make things better - you'll spend years doing damn distateful things before you're ever in a position to affect positive change, assuming you haven't been properly corrupted by then. If you refuse to toe the line, then you'll find yourself fired or pressed with criminal charges. Selling your soul for a small chance to change the CIA seems quite the price to pay.
  - mycroft-holmes 12y ago
    Exactly. The government is going to be receptive to an activist asking them to stop bulk data collection and mass surveillance because they're trying to change from within.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      How do you know they will be receptive?
      - mod 12y ago
        I'm entirely sure he was being sarcastic.
      - mycroft-holmes 12y ago
        Oops. I accidentally typed is instead of isn't.
thirdreplicator 12y ago
You're awesome Tim! You've got one more fan!
marincounty 12y ago
I was stopped for essentially walking with books at 12:30 p.m. I was questioned for at least 15 minutes. He asked the weirdest questions. He looked through my books, and questioned why I had a old magazine on knitting. I actually told him why because I was kind of in shock over the nature of questions. I thought maybe he thought I was stealing mail? I told him the magazine is from the 80's, and didn't even have postage on it. Officer, "No--I was just wondering why a guy would be interested in knitting?" (The magazine was for a friend, and bought in a used book store) I thought about pulling out my iPhone and tapeing the encounter. I then realized the cop had his holster unbuckled, and no one was around, and he explicitly told me to keep my hands visable at all times. I'm not anti law enforcement. I'm just tired of being pulled over for no reason. Tired of expensive, dubious tickets, and courts that always side with the Officer. This has forced me to buy two dash cams(one in truck as backup--they are $15.00/unit from China, so I ordered two.) and I'm working on an app that turns on the smartphone video when ever the word "Officer" is mentioned. The scenerio I envision is I am walking down the street with the smartphone in my shirt pocket/jacket pocket(near enough to pick up my command of voicing "Officer" to wake up dormant phone, and turn on the video/audio app. If there is already an app out there, could someone point me in the right direction?
- zacharycohn 12y ago
  I didn't realize until now, but phones are currently always passively listening for "okay Google" or "hey Siri." Look into whether you can tap into that.
- comrh 12y ago
  Interesting idea. Being in your pocket the audio/video would kinda suck I would imagine. People have those headphones with mics though which would probably work. You can set custom commands on Android then say "OK Google <command>"

111 points by deegles 12y ago

danso 12y ago

> He'll make $22.60 an hour and start on May 6. If all goes well, Clemans will stay on as a full-time staffer. Uh, seriously? This is less than what high school kids routinely get paid to do HTML ($30/hr, and that was in the 90s)

jrbancel 12y ago
It is ridiculous, especially considering how well SPD officers are being paid... http://www.seattle.gov/policejobs/benefits-and-salary/salary http://www.seattle.gov/policejobs/benefits-and-salary/salary
- lsiebert 12y ago
  Yet, he developed a fair bit of software for this free already. Sometimes people do things for the public good. Plus you know he's going to be hired somewhere else after this if he wants to, and if he owns the software he develops, he can make bank.
  - williamstein 12y ago
    I know Tim personally, since he contributed for years to the SageMath software project while he was in high school here in Seattle. He is an extremely sincere person, who care intensely about things (like open source software), and has little interest or motivation related to money. The potential that he could have any impact that could improve the terrible police/people interactions even a little in Seattle is I'm sure all he cares about. I very much wish him the best.
    - bch 12y ago
      Whether or not he cares about his bank balance doesn't change what fair compensation is. If you frame this as "you can donate $10 to your favorite cause, or $50", the rate might seem more meaningful.
johnl1479 12y ago
Devil's advocate here, but it is for a 90 day "probationary" period > initially, at least, on a three-month trial basis to work on redaction and disclosure of data.
krapp 12y ago
>This is less than what high school kids routinely get paid to do HTML The '90s ended a long time ago.
- danso 12y ago
  In the 90s, $30 was $46 in today's dollars...so while the value of basic front-end code has declined...so has the value of $30.
  - krapp 12y ago
    Still, people make far less per hour doing far more than basic front-end work today. Don't get me wrong, I think he should make as much as he can get away with making, but 22.00 an hour really isn't scraping the bottom of the barrel for programming work in a lot of places, not even in the US.
    - learc83 12y ago
      $22 an hour for programming is definitely scrapping the bottom of the barrel in the US (unless you're an intern or trainee). I live in a pretty cheap area of the US, and the only place I've seen jobs paying that poorly is on odesk (and most of these jobs are taken by people in low cost of living countries). If you're working for $22 an hour, you're selling yourself short.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
PhasmaFelis 12y ago
That is definitely not "routine" pay for high school kids writing HTML in any year. Sounds like you hit a clueless marketeer who had been huffing the dot-com bubble. Hacker News has a disproportionate population of people who work in fields and locations where you can easily expect to make six figures straight out of college, and as a result HN has some seriously skewed ideas about how much money is "real" money. When I got my first programming job (in the mid-'00s, in a town with a population of ~250,000) I made $15 an hour. I was absolutely delighted to get it, and it was enough to live well and save some money besides. Of course, $22.60 in modern Seattle is less impressive, depending on whether he lives in the city proper or in the suburbs. But you can't expect tax-funded jobs to have the same kind of ridiculous salaries that Amazon and Google can afford to pay. And the guy's an activist. This has got to be a dream job for him--a chance to make a difference in something he's passionate about. Some things are worth more than money.

theophrastus 12y ago

This is nigh Sun_Tzu/genius of Seattle's creative (female) chief of police: if there is a capable pest working against you, invite them in, and have them work for you.

jsprogrammer 12y ago
What does gender have to do with anything? Disclosure will progress towards real-time: gathered not only by officers, but by any other person as well. Props to Seattle for being slightly ahead of the curve.
- theophrastus 12y ago
  How many female chiefs of police are there in the states? I was just including it to support your deeply insightful observation that Seattle (generally) tends to be "slightly ahead of the curve".
- chucksmash 12y ago
  It's kind of an odd juxtaposition of thoughts but I get the impression GP was just pointing that the chief of police is female (which I'd naively imagine bucks the general trend).
- mattgrice 12y ago
  Seattle PD is under a DOJ consent decree because of a pattern of excessive force and discriminatory policing. She is perceived to be an outsider brought in to disrupt the good old boys' club. Her status as an outsider is very relevant in this context, and female police officers have a MUCH better track record on use of excessive force. Source: http://womenandpolicing.com/PDF/2002_Excessive_Force.pdf http://womenandpolicing.com/PDF/2002_Excessive_Force.pdf
- octatoan 12y ago
  He's probably poking fun at the "gurls arent creative loool' trope.

ars 12y ago

This is what every activist needs to do. Unhappy at how a government agency works? Apply for a job and change it from within. Agencies are made of people. I saw a story a while ago about how the CIA was having trouble finding people to hire, because of Snowden. This is backwards! People should be jumping to work there and make the place better. For example, Zoos used to be quite different from how they are run today. What changed? People who loved animals figured it would be a neat place to work. Over time zoos have changed to conservation and public education oriented places, instead of public exhibition places.

cheald 12y ago
> People should be jumping to work there and make the place better. You don't just get to sign up to work for the CIA and make things better - you'll spend years doing damn distateful things before you're ever in a position to affect positive change, assuming you haven't been properly corrupted by then. If you refuse to toe the line, then you'll find yourself fired or pressed with criminal charges. Selling your soul for a small chance to change the CIA seems quite the price to pay.
- mycroft-holmes 12y ago
  Exactly. The government is going to be receptive to an activist asking them to stop bulk data collection and mass surveillance because they're trying to change from within.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    How do you know they will be receptive?
    - mod 12y ago
      I'm entirely sure he was being sarcastic.
    - mycroft-holmes 12y ago
      Oops. I accidentally typed is instead of isn't.

thirdreplicator 12y ago

You're awesome Tim! You've got one more fan!

marincounty 12y ago

I was stopped for essentially walking with books at 12:30 p.m. I was questioned for at least 15 minutes. He asked the weirdest questions. He looked through my books, and questioned why I had a old magazine on knitting. I actually told him why because I was kind of in shock over the nature of questions. I thought maybe he thought I was stealing mail? I told him the magazine is from the 80's, and didn't even have postage on it. Officer, "No--I was just wondering why a guy would be interested in knitting?" (The magazine was for a friend, and bought in a used book store) I thought about pulling out my iPhone and tapeing the encounter. I then realized the cop had his holster unbuckled, and no one was around, and he explicitly told me to keep my hands visable at all times. I'm not anti law enforcement. I'm just tired of being pulled over for no reason. Tired of expensive, dubious tickets, and courts that always side with the Officer. This has forced me to buy two dash cams(one in truck as backup--they are $15.00/unit from China, so I ordered two.) and I'm working on an app that turns on the smartphone video when ever the word "Officer" is mentioned. The scenerio I envision is I am walking down the street with the smartphone in my shirt pocket/jacket pocket(near enough to pick up my command of voicing "Officer" to wake up dormant phone, and turn on the video/audio app. If there is already an app out there, could someone point me in the right direction?

zacharycohn 12y ago
I didn't realize until now, but phones are currently always passively listening for "okay Google" or "hey Siri." Look into whether you can tap into that.
comrh 12y ago
Interesting idea. Being in your pocket the audio/video would kinda suck I would imagine. People have those headphones with mics though which would probably work. You can set custom commands on Android then say "OK Google <command>"