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Yes, sorry if that seemed like a troll-ish question, but it wasn't. You made a claim, and while I could assume I understand your reasoning, I'd rather know wha

Yes, sorry if that seemed like a troll-ish question, but it wasn't. You made a claim, and while I could assume I understand your reasoning, I'd rather know what you think, not what I think you think.

Crito 11y ago
Throw the chimp in a pool. If the chimp swims out, it seems to have a (at least instinctual) desire to not drown. Put it into a more complex situation where the danger would only be recognizable through reasoning, see if it still tries to live. Honestly I would be very surprised if infant humans passed this, let alone unborn babies. I doubt a non-instinctual desire to remain alive can exist before that entity has the ability to recognize death as a concept and possibility. From what I have seen of babies, they just aren't that smart. I mean come on, they have to learn that they have hands, how could they have a conscious desire to preserve their own life before they are even aware of their full body?
- Dylan16807 11y ago
  Drowning hurts. Invalid test. Can you name something that's not a thought experiment where a chimp has shown that higher level of reasoning? Where they show a preference specifically about their own life/death. Edit: For example, an especially good test for a human would be a button that gives a mild zap when you press it, but if it goes unpressed then you die in your sleep from carbon monoxide poisoning. That shows actual preference for life, and not just running away from a negative stimulus.
- notdonspaulding 11y ago
  > Honestly I would be very surprised if infant humans > passed this, let alone unborn babies. This is where I make the completely bonkers claim that drowning infants is just plain worse across the board than drowning chimps. If there were 5 babies and 5 chimps drowning in the pool, I'd have no hesitation to save the 5 babies first, and I would expect prosecution for negligence if I didn't and the babies died. I don't think this is merely a desire to save "my own" species for some weird sake of solidarity. I think it's a reasonable discernment of the relative value of the lives at stake. > From what I have seen of babies, they just aren't that smart. Well, they certainly don't have a lot of experiential knowledge, but they're incredibly fast learners (I have 5). Though I'm not disagreeing that, especially during their nascent stages, they can't do nearly as many neat tricks as the adult chimp. ;-)
  - meric 11y ago
    Well of course you'd save the babies first, the chimps can stay alive by themselves a bit longer.
    - pvaldes 11y ago
      In fact is the opposite. Chimps can not float, too muscular (muscles are heavy) and babies have a very good diving reflex that keep his mouths closed by instinct whereas under water. Is probably that babies will stay alive longer. Is complicated to swim if you can't even float. In any case is a bad testing design that can not prove nothing. And unnecessary also, we should safely assume that every creature want to stay alive and have as many descendands as they can. Testing should try to discover exceptions, not to find unrelated facts that can fit our rule.
- meric 11y ago
  They cry when hungry. Even if they do not consciously desire life, they consciously desire not to starve, to not feel pain, to not feel too cold or too hot.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - icebraining 11y ago
    consciously How do you know? They certainly react to hunger and pain, but so do flies and, arguably, even plants.
    - meric 11y ago
      My earliest memory was from when I couldn't talk and remember deliberately shaking the bells attached to my leg to attract my mothers attention. Granted I was most probably over a year old then.

Yes, sorry if that seemed like a troll-ish question, but it wasn't. You made a claim, and while I could assume I understand your reasoning, I'd rather know what you think, not what I think you think.

Crito 11y ago

Throw the chimp in a pool. If the chimp swims out, it seems to have a (at least instinctual) desire to not drown. Put it into a more complex situation where the danger would only be recognizable through reasoning, see if it still tries to live. Honestly I would be very surprised if infant humans passed this, let alone unborn babies. I doubt a non-instinctual desire to remain alive can exist before that entity has the ability to recognize death as a concept and possibility. From what I have seen of babies, they just aren't that smart. I mean come on, they have to learn that they have hands, how could they have a conscious desire to preserve their own life before they are even aware of their full body?

Dylan16807 11y ago
Drowning hurts. Invalid test. Can you name something that's not a thought experiment where a chimp has shown that higher level of reasoning? Where they show a preference specifically about their own life/death. Edit: For example, an especially good test for a human would be a button that gives a mild zap when you press it, but if it goes unpressed then you die in your sleep from carbon monoxide poisoning. That shows actual preference for life, and not just running away from a negative stimulus.
notdonspaulding 11y ago
> Honestly I would be very surprised if infant humans > passed this, let alone unborn babies. This is where I make the completely bonkers claim that drowning infants is just plain worse across the board than drowning chimps. If there were 5 babies and 5 chimps drowning in the pool, I'd have no hesitation to save the 5 babies first, and I would expect prosecution for negligence if I didn't and the babies died. I don't think this is merely a desire to save "my own" species for some weird sake of solidarity. I think it's a reasonable discernment of the relative value of the lives at stake. > From what I have seen of babies, they just aren't that smart. Well, they certainly don't have a lot of experiential knowledge, but they're incredibly fast learners (I have 5). Though I'm not disagreeing that, especially during their nascent stages, they can't do nearly as many neat tricks as the adult chimp. ;-)
- meric 11y ago
  Well of course you'd save the babies first, the chimps can stay alive by themselves a bit longer.
  - pvaldes 11y ago
    In fact is the opposite. Chimps can not float, too muscular (muscles are heavy) and babies have a very good diving reflex that keep his mouths closed by instinct whereas under water. Is probably that babies will stay alive longer. Is complicated to swim if you can't even float. In any case is a bad testing design that can not prove nothing. And unnecessary also, we should safely assume that every creature want to stay alive and have as many descendands as they can. Testing should try to discover exceptions, not to find unrelated facts that can fit our rule.
meric 11y ago
They cry when hungry. Even if they do not consciously desire life, they consciously desire not to starve, to not feel pain, to not feel too cold or too hot.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- icebraining 11y ago
  consciously How do you know? They certainly react to hunger and pain, but so do flies and, arguably, even plants.
  - meric 11y ago
    My earliest memory was from when I couldn't talk and remember deliberately shaking the bells attached to my leg to attract my mothers attention. Granted I was most probably over a year old then.