6 ms·

When I was in my 20's I knew and hung out with a bunch of hobos like these. They were all (yes, ALL) middle/lower middle class, white, fairly well educated (com

by sanoli 12y ago

When I was in my 20's I knew and hung out with a bunch of hobos like these. They were all (yes, ALL) middle/lower middle class, white, fairly well educated (completed high school). They all lived this way by choice. They all could get a job if they wanted to, but thought normal life/capitalism/the system/wathever "sucked". And they all depended on the system/wathever for their basic needs, or when shit hit the fan (needing a hospital, or the police in extreme cases, which happened eventually). So yeah, they could get a job. But also, our society makes this lifestyle possible, and it does have its pros. They had lots of free time, lots of freedom to go anywhere they wanted to, no responsibility, no bills to match at the end of the month, etc. But they weren't there because "you don't know what it's like". Also, the ones who developed alcoholism or serious drug problems didn't have the stuff before. They got it through the lifestyle.

verbin217 12y ago
You apparently "don't know what it's like" to have something in your life that causes their state of mind. We shouldn't condemn them for choosing this lifestyle. Especially not when their alternative is likely minimum wage with no apparent escape. It does suck and they're expressing just how badly it sucks by choosing to be homeless. Good for them.
- sanoli 12y ago
  No, you're not getting it. Most of the people I knew could go to college if they wanted to. Their families would have supported them, or at least helped them out quite a bit. To give you an example, two guys I knew wanted out of it. They got a job making minimum wage while they attended welding school. They make enough to live very comfortably these days. Some, but only a minority, really had not much of a choice. Either their family was very fucked-up and had botched their upbringing pretty bad, or they had gone down too low on drugs/alcohol. And I'm not condemning them for choosing this lifestyle. Like I said, it does have its pros. It can be a good, exciting life, especially since you're in the US, where you can get a lot of society's excesses for free, when they are discarded.
  - derefr 12y ago
    "Could have if they wanted to" is the core signature of ADHD. Imagine knowing that there are lots of things you could, theoretically do with the resources you have at your disposal—but having none of the "willpower" thing that lets people do things that are even slightly boring or unpleasant in the short term. Imagine wanting to learn skills that require practice, but being unable to invoke whatever mysterious forces cause this "practice" to happen. Imagine being amazing at stupid skills that you got because their training mechanisms involve short reward loops (for example, video games) and knowing your own potential, and hearing over and over everyone around you tell you about that potential and encouraging you to use it, but just feeling a stab of "ugh" whenever you even consider starting that is utterly insurmountable. Imagine, even, having skills that could get you a great, well-paying job (e.g. programming—something, as it turns out, that has a short-reward-loop method of learning) but then just not being able to work up the desire to apply for a job; to go to the interviews you applied for; to come to work on time each day; to do anything other than surf the Internet once you're there. This isn't abstract to me— I failed out of university. I was homeless on-and-off for a year and a half. I went back to live with my parents for a year. Then (at the age of 24) I got diagnosed with ADHD and put on a medication for it. Now, two years later, I'm making $250K/yr working as a CTO for a financial startup. Many people I met while homeless, looking back, also had all the signs of having had ADHD—or, if not that, then major depression, or a social anxiety disorder. None of them thought of themselves as having a condition; they just "didn't want to work." They didn't realize that what they "wanted" was in large part a function of what they would or would not flinch away from because of pain; and that their pain response to attempting certain things was not a matter of "character", not and not something they had failed to learn or needed to "work through", but a treatable handicap, like nearsightedness. I wish I could take every one of them to the same psychiatrist I went to, but it took me eight months on a waiting list to talk to them. There are far, far too few practicing psychiatrists to help all the people that need help. Something about this needs to change.
    - IkmoIkmo 12y ago
      Man that hits home, only I'm still 24 with a complete lack of motivation. I keep telling myself that I'm using it as an excuse and that it's really laziness, but if I'm intellectually honest with myself I don't really believe that. It's like I miss some hormone that motivates me, similar to perhaps a gay person missing the sexual attraction to the opposite sex and not having any way to change that, in a world where nobody is gay and nobody gets why you don't have that genuine, inherent attraction. Feel free to elaborate a bit on how you eventually got out of this if you'd like, I'd love to hear more. Perhaps it'll help me, too. Thanks for sharing in any case :)
- tsotha 12y ago
  >We shouldn't condemn them for choosing this lifestyle. Oh, I'll condemn the ones that choose it. If you're homeless because you have mental or physical problems that's one thing, but people who choose to be homeless because they're too lazy to work are parasites.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    Laziness is an indicator of mental disorder; there is usually some sort of depression, drug abuse, or other problem making the person drop out of society like that, rarely is it just "I don't want to work." Of course, in less prosperous societies, it mostly isn't a choice made willingly.
    - tsotha 12y ago
      >Laziness is an indicator of mental disorder... I don't agree at all. Some amount of laziness is normal, and the world is full of people without mental disorders that will do the minimum to get by. This is just the tail end of the curve. Everybody has problems, and most of us still get up and go to work. Since we're not going to deny services to the ones who don't we should require them to work if they're able.
      - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        Some amounts of laziness are normal, but excessive amounts are not. Mental disorders are much more common than you think, and probably could have been easily solved with early intervention (but you know the education and mental health system in America isn't that great...). But anyways, they don't get a free ride especially in Puritanical America.
        tsotha 12y ago
        >But anyways, they don't get a free ride especially in Puritanical America. They don't? Where I live they get money from the county and free medical care. They occasionally get free beds in a shelter (which some of them refuse). When they attack each other the cops are left to try and figure it out. And the rest of us are paying for it all. I'm not opposed to helping people who need it, but I think the idea people who behave antisocially ipso facto have some sort of mental illness and should therefor be supported by the rest of us is corrosive and wrong.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

by sanoli 12y ago

verbin217 12y ago

You apparently "don't know what it's like" to have something in your life that causes their state of mind. We shouldn't condemn them for choosing this lifestyle. Especially not when their alternative is likely minimum wage with no apparent escape. It does suck and they're expressing just how badly it sucks by choosing to be homeless. Good for them.

sanoli 12y ago
No, you're not getting it. Most of the people I knew could go to college if they wanted to. Their families would have supported them, or at least helped them out quite a bit. To give you an example, two guys I knew wanted out of it. They got a job making minimum wage while they attended welding school. They make enough to live very comfortably these days. Some, but only a minority, really had not much of a choice. Either their family was very fucked-up and had botched their upbringing pretty bad, or they had gone down too low on drugs/alcohol. And I'm not condemning them for choosing this lifestyle. Like I said, it does have its pros. It can be a good, exciting life, especially since you're in the US, where you can get a lot of society's excesses for free, when they are discarded.
- derefr 12y ago
  "Could have if they wanted to" is the core signature of ADHD. Imagine knowing that there are lots of things you could, theoretically do with the resources you have at your disposal—but having none of the "willpower" thing that lets people do things that are even slightly boring or unpleasant in the short term. Imagine wanting to learn skills that require practice, but being unable to invoke whatever mysterious forces cause this "practice" to happen. Imagine being amazing at stupid skills that you got because their training mechanisms involve short reward loops (for example, video games) and knowing your own potential, and hearing over and over everyone around you tell you about that potential and encouraging you to use it, but just feeling a stab of "ugh" whenever you even consider starting that is utterly insurmountable. Imagine, even, having skills that could get you a great, well-paying job (e.g. programming—something, as it turns out, that has a short-reward-loop method of learning) but then just not being able to work up the desire to apply for a job; to go to the interviews you applied for; to come to work on time each day; to do anything other than surf the Internet once you're there. This isn't abstract to me— I failed out of university. I was homeless on-and-off for a year and a half. I went back to live with my parents for a year. Then (at the age of 24) I got diagnosed with ADHD and put on a medication for it. Now, two years later, I'm making $250K/yr working as a CTO for a financial startup. Many people I met while homeless, looking back, also had all the signs of having had ADHD—or, if not that, then major depression, or a social anxiety disorder. None of them thought of themselves as having a condition; they just "didn't want to work." They didn't realize that what they "wanted" was in large part a function of what they would or would not flinch away from because of pain; and that their pain response to attempting certain things was not a matter of "character", not and not something they had failed to learn or needed to "work through", but a treatable handicap, like nearsightedness. I wish I could take every one of them to the same psychiatrist I went to, but it took me eight months on a waiting list to talk to them. There are far, far too few practicing psychiatrists to help all the people that need help. Something about this needs to change.
  - IkmoIkmo 12y ago
    Man that hits home, only I'm still 24 with a complete lack of motivation. I keep telling myself that I'm using it as an excuse and that it's really laziness, but if I'm intellectually honest with myself I don't really believe that. It's like I miss some hormone that motivates me, similar to perhaps a gay person missing the sexual attraction to the opposite sex and not having any way to change that, in a world where nobody is gay and nobody gets why you don't have that genuine, inherent attraction. Feel free to elaborate a bit on how you eventually got out of this if you'd like, I'd love to hear more. Perhaps it'll help me, too. Thanks for sharing in any case :)
tsotha 12y ago
>We shouldn't condemn them for choosing this lifestyle. Oh, I'll condemn the ones that choose it. If you're homeless because you have mental or physical problems that's one thing, but people who choose to be homeless because they're too lazy to work are parasites.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  Laziness is an indicator of mental disorder; there is usually some sort of depression, drug abuse, or other problem making the person drop out of society like that, rarely is it just "I don't want to work." Of course, in less prosperous societies, it mostly isn't a choice made willingly.
  - tsotha 12y ago
    >Laziness is an indicator of mental disorder... I don't agree at all. Some amount of laziness is normal, and the world is full of people without mental disorders that will do the minimum to get by. This is just the tail end of the curve. Everybody has problems, and most of us still get up and go to work. Since we're not going to deny services to the ones who don't we should require them to work if they're able.
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      Some amounts of laziness are normal, but excessive amounts are not. Mental disorders are much more common than you think, and probably could have been easily solved with early intervention (but you know the education and mental health system in America isn't that great...). But anyways, they don't get a free ride especially in Puritanical America.
      - tsotha 12y ago
        >But anyways, they don't get a free ride especially in Puritanical America. They don't? Where I live they get money from the county and free medical care. They occasionally get free beds in a shelter (which some of them refuse). When they attack each other the cops are left to try and figure it out. And the rest of us are paying for it all. I'm not opposed to helping people who need it, but I think the idea people who behave antisocially ipso facto have some sort of mental illness and should therefor be supported by the rest of us is corrosive and wrong.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]