4 ms·

Is 10ms really that big of a deal? I'm an amateur musician so have some experience playing in bands, but I have a hard time believing 10ms would feel off when p

Is 10ms really that big of a deal? I'm an amateur musician so have some experience playing in bands, but I have a hard time believing 10ms would feel off when playing with others.

marquis 12y ago
9ms is the industry-recognised time that it takes before the brain notices that sync is out. If you have 2 woodblocks clapping and they are more than 9ms out of sync, you will hear one as an echo instead of 2 blocks at the same time. So if you are a band wanting to play remotely and you have 100ms network latency plus all the other latencies of the software layer, it's not going to be possible. Similarly if you are trying to drum in time with a track: more than 10ms latency from when you tap your finger to when you hear the audio, you'll have a hard time staying in sync.
- ohitsdom 12y ago
  Thanks for the 9ms reference, that's helpful. I'm honestly surprised it's that low.
- hyperpallium 12y ago
  IIRC it's a similar latency figure for VR headtracking (15ms), and also for touch screens (10ms).
abruzzi 12y ago
I think the biggest problem is that 10ms is more than enough to throw off a performer because it feels like a lag between when you hit the key and the note sounds. This makes it hard to play proficiently for anything with a fast tempo because it feels like the sound engine isn't keeping up with you. For an audience, 10ms is going to feel like sloppy timing. That will be more of an issue with tightly timed music (techno/EDM) and less with a slow jazz ballad.
- Synaesthesia 12y ago
  Really 10ms is ok, and you can cmompensate for it mentally. As they note, it's because Android music apps actually have a latency of 100ms or worse - that it's a problem.
masklinn 12y ago
The title isn't clear but (sub-) 10ms is the target. The "problem" part is that Android devices generally don't come close, the lowest-latency Android device on the market today (barring Samsung's custom "Professional Audio SDK") has a 35ms roundtrip latency (ADC -> DAC), and many devices are way beyond 100ms (http://superpowered.com/latency/ http://superpowered.com/latency/)
- ohitsdom 12y ago
  This makes more sense. 100ms and over sounds to me like a huge problem, while 10ms does not.
  - e12e 12y ago
    I came across this (which is a commercial so exaggerates the lag) -- but still quite hilarious (Swedish audio): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNp37zFn9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNp37zFn9Q
nsajko 12y ago
10ms is OK, 50ms not so.
hrnnnnnn 12y ago
When recording guitar on my computer, I can feel the difference between 10ms and 5ms. 10 isn't horrible, but it's definitely not optimal.
- BFay 12y ago
  If you think about it, speed of sound is about 340.29 meters per second... also 0.34029 meters per millisecond... also 1.11644 feet per millisecond. So 5ms vs 10ms latency is like the difference between having your amp 5 feet or 10 feet away.
  - TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
    Worse, if the latency shifts, you start getting phase problems.
squeaky-clean 12y ago
10ms is fine. The problem is that Android apps cannot reach 10ms. The title and article aren't very clear on that point.
drewcrawford 12y ago
So I've got a few decades of serious music training under my belt. Multi-instrument. I notice any latency above 7ms. I can compensate pretty well between about 7-14ms. Anything above that will affect the performance. Once you get to, say, 25ms, it's like I lose several years of training. It's hard to relate to because most people don't have experience doing tasks demanding that level of precision. Perhaps it would be useful to think about what would happen if you introduced a delay between striking a key on your keyboard and the sensation of feeling it travel. You "can type" without any sensation at all (see iPads) but people who are serious about typing go to extraordinary lengths to make the keyboard feel right.

Is 10ms really that big of a deal? I'm an amateur musician so have some experience playing in bands, but I have a hard time believing 10ms would feel off when playing with others.

marquis 12y ago

9ms is the industry-recognised time that it takes before the brain notices that sync is out. If you have 2 woodblocks clapping and they are more than 9ms out of sync, you will hear one as an echo instead of 2 blocks at the same time. So if you are a band wanting to play remotely and you have 100ms network latency plus all the other latencies of the software layer, it's not going to be possible. Similarly if you are trying to drum in time with a track: more than 10ms latency from when you tap your finger to when you hear the audio, you'll have a hard time staying in sync.

ohitsdom 12y ago
Thanks for the 9ms reference, that's helpful. I'm honestly surprised it's that low.
hyperpallium 12y ago
IIRC it's a similar latency figure for VR headtracking (15ms), and also for touch screens (10ms).

abruzzi 12y ago

I think the biggest problem is that 10ms is more than enough to throw off a performer because it feels like a lag between when you hit the key and the note sounds. This makes it hard to play proficiently for anything with a fast tempo because it feels like the sound engine isn't keeping up with you. For an audience, 10ms is going to feel like sloppy timing. That will be more of an issue with tightly timed music (techno/EDM) and less with a slow jazz ballad.

Synaesthesia 12y ago
Really 10ms is ok, and you can cmompensate for it mentally. As they note, it's because Android music apps actually have a latency of 100ms or worse - that it's a problem.

masklinn 12y ago

The title isn't clear but (sub-) 10ms is the target. The "problem" part is that Android devices generally don't come close, the lowest-latency Android device on the market today (barring Samsung's custom "Professional Audio SDK") has a 35ms roundtrip latency (ADC -> DAC), and many devices are way beyond 100ms (http://superpowered.com/latency/ http://superpowered.com/latency/)

ohitsdom 12y ago
This makes more sense. 100ms and over sounds to me like a huge problem, while 10ms does not.
- e12e 12y ago
  I came across this (which is a commercial so exaggerates the lag) -- but still quite hilarious (Swedish audio): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNp37zFn9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNp37zFn9Q

nsajko 12y ago

10ms is OK, 50ms not so.

hrnnnnnn 12y ago

When recording guitar on my computer, I can feel the difference between 10ms and 5ms. 10 isn't horrible, but it's definitely not optimal.

BFay 12y ago
If you think about it, speed of sound is about 340.29 meters per second... also 0.34029 meters per millisecond... also 1.11644 feet per millisecond. So 5ms vs 10ms latency is like the difference between having your amp 5 feet or 10 feet away.
- TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
  Worse, if the latency shifts, you start getting phase problems.

squeaky-clean 12y ago

10ms is fine. The problem is that Android apps cannot reach 10ms. The title and article aren't very clear on that point.

drewcrawford 12y ago

So I've got a few decades of serious music training under my belt. Multi-instrument. I notice any latency above 7ms. I can compensate pretty well between about 7-14ms. Anything above that will affect the performance. Once you get to, say, 25ms, it's like I lose several years of training. It's hard to relate to because most people don't have experience doing tasks demanding that level of precision. Perhaps it would be useful to think about what would happen if you introduced a delay between striking a key on your keyboard and the sensation of feeling it travel. You "can type" without any sensation at all (see iPads) but people who are serious about typing go to extraordinary lengths to make the keyboard feel right.