7 ms·

Lisp Space – A Space for Parentheses

82 points by weavie 12y ago

etiam 12y ago
Would be nice to have it working at least to some degree without javascript. Good luck!
- weavie 12y ago
  I think it is running on Telescope (http://www.telescopeapp.org/ http://www.telescopeapp.org/) which is a Meteor app. As far as I know this makes it pretty much impossible to run without JS.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
    Why can't Meteor do server-side rendering? The whole design seems almost ideal for it.
    - sgdesign 12y ago
      It should, but it doesn't yet. It's on the roadmap though.
- outworlder 12y ago
  What's the use-case for that? Are there people reading that using a Lisp Machine or something? I'd say it should offer some form of API. Then you can use anything to read. Such as Emacs.
  - emidln 12y ago
    If it just used plain markup, I could read it in emacs without building a custom client for the API.
    - outworlder 12y ago
      On closer inspection, you're correct. I thought it would first render the page, then the javascript would take over. It does not seem to be the case, on first load there's only javascript.
  - Grue3 12y ago
    At a bare minimum it should work in Emacs's eww. Or at least some other browser, completely written in Lisp.
  - copsarebastards 12y ago
    > What's the use-case for that? Running without JavaScript is a use-case. Not everyone wants to run that insecure stuff on their machine.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
      Insecure... how, exactly? It's only as insecure as your browser's parsers for other formats.
      - copsarebastards 12y ago
        1. In the last year, numerous security holes have been found in the JavaScript implementations of every major browser. 2. Even if you assume JavaScript sandboxes are secure, the actual expected behavior of the language is that all code runs in a big global scope. A perfect sandbox would prevent sites from running arbitrary code on your machine, but any JavaScript running on a page effectively has access to all the data on the page. That means every ad, tracker, etc. on the page has access to all the data on the page, including passwords on forms, etc.
      - TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
        The number of browser exploits requiring JS compared to the number of browser exploits not requiring browser JS disagree with your assertion. The distinction is that JS is a complex and turing-complete language that browsers put a lot of effort into making fast and memory-efficient. And as a result JS doesn't exactly have the best security record.
ponyous 12y ago
I saw many pages like `Hacker News for x`. Did any of those took off? (Just wondering, no hate)
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  Datatau seems to be alive, and I check it regularly. Not much discussion though. http://www.datatau.com/ http://www.datatau.com/
  - not-much-io 12y ago
    Regarding DataTau I built a small front page analyzer and have some graphs up. It runs every 3 hours and looks at some aspects of both HackerNews and DataTau and compares the two. It's still very much a work in progress. At one point I will let it run for an extended period of time. Graphs: https://github.com/not-much-io/hn-dt-frontpage-comparison/tree/master/data/plots https://github.com/not-much-io/hn-dt-frontpage-comparison/tr...
- weavie 12y ago
  https://growthhackers.com/ https://growthhackers.com/ http://www.bootstrappers.io/ http://www.bootstrappers.io/ Are a couple of more business oriented ones that seem to be doing fairly well.
- shadeless 12y ago
  It's more of an alternative/competitor than "Hacker News for x", but https://lobste.rs/ https://lobste.rs/ seems active.
- lispersteve 12y ago
  There's a whole load of them here : http://www.telescopeapp.org/showcase http://www.telescopeapp.org/showcase
jeletonskelly 12y ago
I grew a professor style beard just visiting that site.
dman 12y ago
How is this different than planet.lisp.org?
- rakoo 12y ago
  planets only contain the post; the highest value of sites like HN and reddit is the comments, because that's where discussion can happen and counterpoints can be brought forward.
copsarebastards 12y ago
> Why is Scheme not a Lisp? Oh god, please no.
- expando 12y ago
  Why not? It seems interesting to me. I've always called scheme/racket a lisp, and I never knew that anyone felt differently. Does this mean that clojure is also not a lisp?
  - icebraining 12y ago
    It's a holy war, like vim vs emacs and tabs vs spaces. Tread carefully. If you want to read more on it, there's a discussion in the Wiki: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IsSchemeLisp http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IsSchemeLisp
  - DonHopkins 12y ago
    I thoroughly enjoyed reading Erik Naggum's comments on that holy war thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Naggum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Naggum
    - copsarebastards 12y ago
      I was pretty disappointed to see that he got his hands dirty in that discussion.
  - copsarebastards 12y ago
    That discussion is about as pedantic as a discussion can be. The main point against seems to be "they didn't name it Lisp". From there it goes into weird accusations like that people call Scheme a Lisp to defame Common Lisp (WTF?). They also say stuff like "Lisp and Scheme parted ways" which is just ignorant of the fact that "Lisp" in that context means "Common Lisp" and most people saying "Scheme is a Lisp" are basically talking about languages inspired by McCarthy's Lisp. But instead of making this reasonable counterargument, people start arguing that Scheme has a lot of similarities to Lisp (meaning Common Lisp). And that link is one of the more intelligent debates on the subject. It's a long-running debate and most places I've seen it discussed are even more confused. I just can't be arsed to give a fuck. Usually when I'm talking about Common Lisp I say "Common Lisp" because I value actual clear communication over saving six characters. And when I say "Lisp" I usually mean "languages inspired by McCarthy's Lisp" (which includes Scheme), but it's pretty rare I have anything useful to say about such a broad group of languages.
S4M 12y ago
http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp
davexunit 12y ago
Since this site requires JavaScript in order to work at all, is the source code available under a free license? I'm interested in participating, but not if I have to use proprietary software to do it.
- weavie 12y ago
  https://github.com/TelescopeJS/Telescope https://github.com/TelescopeJS/Telescope
  - davexunit 12y ago
    So, it is just a telescope instance without any modifications? Okay, sounds good. Would be nice if they provided a link to download the exact source code that they are using.
    - lispersteve 12y ago
      It is pure unmodified Telescope. Will add an about page to site shortly.
      - davexunit 12y ago
        Thank you!
lispersteve 12y ago
So I wasn't really expecting this site to get to the front page of HN. It's pretty cool that it did though, I hope some people find it useful. Please contribute and get some good discussion going! I don't think things are working 100% at the minute which is probably due to the load - it is running on a $3 pm OVH VPS. I'm quite amazed it is still running at all. It is a Telescope app at the minute which uses Meteor, so there is no chance of it running without Javascript. It was just a quick evening idea that took about 5 minutes to set up. Telescope is pretty amazing how simple it is to set up. I hear you about being able to run without JS - especially within Emacs. Awesome idea! If the interest continues I will look into rewriting the site (in a Lisp obviously) to serve static content. Could be a fun little project. Thanks for the interest!
- sgdesign 12y ago
  Thanks for using Telescope :) Let me know if I can do anything to help!
microcolonel 12y ago
Too bad it's on Meteor, it's going to be a pain to keep this running. Good luck!
- lispersteve 12y ago
  I would be interested to hear what you think the pain points may be. In truth I just started this up on a whim and didn't look into things too closely.
  - microcolonel 12y ago
    Biggest issue is basically that meteor has an ecosystem of dependencies that need their source code modified to work with Meteor, Meteor also relies entirely on global variables and a number of other uglies. I have been involved professionally with developing two medium-large applications on Meteor, and it's terrifying.(first time was when it was in alpha, so I forgave it, second time out of alpha, and it's almost worse). I think that HN is run from this https://github.com/arclanguage/anarki https://github.com/arclanguage/anarki or something similar. (there's a run-news script in there which IIRC instantiates something a whole lot like HN).
supervillain 12y ago
Am I the only one who notice the '.space' domain?

82 points by weavie 12y ago

etiam 12y ago

Would be nice to have it working at least to some degree without javascript. Good luck!

weavie 12y ago
I think it is running on Telescope (http://www.telescopeapp.org/ http://www.telescopeapp.org/) which is a Meteor app. As far as I know this makes it pretty much impossible to run without JS.
- TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
  Why can't Meteor do server-side rendering? The whole design seems almost ideal for it.
  - sgdesign 12y ago
    It should, but it doesn't yet. It's on the roadmap though.
outworlder 12y ago
What's the use-case for that? Are there people reading that using a Lisp Machine or something? I'd say it should offer some form of API. Then you can use anything to read. Such as Emacs.
- emidln 12y ago
  If it just used plain markup, I could read it in emacs without building a custom client for the API.
  - outworlder 12y ago
    On closer inspection, you're correct. I thought it would first render the page, then the javascript would take over. It does not seem to be the case, on first load there's only javascript.
- Grue3 12y ago
  At a bare minimum it should work in Emacs's eww. Or at least some other browser, completely written in Lisp.
- copsarebastards 12y ago
  > What's the use-case for that? Running without JavaScript is a use-case. Not everyone wants to run that insecure stuff on their machine.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
    Insecure... how, exactly? It's only as insecure as your browser's parsers for other formats.
    - copsarebastards 12y ago
      1. In the last year, numerous security holes have been found in the JavaScript implementations of every major browser. 2. Even if you assume JavaScript sandboxes are secure, the actual expected behavior of the language is that all code runs in a big global scope. A perfect sandbox would prevent sites from running arbitrary code on your machine, but any JavaScript running on a page effectively has access to all the data on the page. That means every ad, tracker, etc. on the page has access to all the data on the page, including passwords on forms, etc.
    - TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
      The number of browser exploits requiring JS compared to the number of browser exploits not requiring browser JS disagree with your assertion. The distinction is that JS is a complex and turing-complete language that browsers put a lot of effort into making fast and memory-efficient. And as a result JS doesn't exactly have the best security record.

ponyous 12y ago

I saw many pages like `Hacker News for x`. Did any of those took off? (Just wondering, no hate)

yummyfajitas 12y ago
Datatau seems to be alive, and I check it regularly. Not much discussion though. http://www.datatau.com/ http://www.datatau.com/
- not-much-io 12y ago
  Regarding DataTau I built a small front page analyzer and have some graphs up. It runs every 3 hours and looks at some aspects of both HackerNews and DataTau and compares the two. It's still very much a work in progress. At one point I will let it run for an extended period of time. Graphs: https://github.com/not-much-io/hn-dt-frontpage-comparison/tree/master/data/plots https://github.com/not-much-io/hn-dt-frontpage-comparison/tr...
weavie 12y ago
https://growthhackers.com/ https://growthhackers.com/ http://www.bootstrappers.io/ http://www.bootstrappers.io/ Are a couple of more business oriented ones that seem to be doing fairly well.
shadeless 12y ago
It's more of an alternative/competitor than "Hacker News for x", but https://lobste.rs/ https://lobste.rs/ seems active.
lispersteve 12y ago
There's a whole load of them here : http://www.telescopeapp.org/showcase http://www.telescopeapp.org/showcase

jeletonskelly 12y ago

I grew a professor style beard just visiting that site.

dman 12y ago

How is this different than planet.lisp.org?

rakoo 12y ago
planets only contain the post; the highest value of sites like HN and reddit is the comments, because that's where discussion can happen and counterpoints can be brought forward.

copsarebastards 12y ago

> Why is Scheme not a Lisp? Oh god, please no.

expando 12y ago
Why not? It seems interesting to me. I've always called scheme/racket a lisp, and I never knew that anyone felt differently. Does this mean that clojure is also not a lisp?
- icebraining 12y ago
  It's a holy war, like vim vs emacs and tabs vs spaces. Tread carefully. If you want to read more on it, there's a discussion in the Wiki: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IsSchemeLisp http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IsSchemeLisp
- DonHopkins 12y ago
  I thoroughly enjoyed reading Erik Naggum's comments on that holy war thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Naggum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Naggum
  - copsarebastards 12y ago
    I was pretty disappointed to see that he got his hands dirty in that discussion.
- copsarebastards 12y ago
  That discussion is about as pedantic as a discussion can be. The main point against seems to be "they didn't name it Lisp". From there it goes into weird accusations like that people call Scheme a Lisp to defame Common Lisp (WTF?). They also say stuff like "Lisp and Scheme parted ways" which is just ignorant of the fact that "Lisp" in that context means "Common Lisp" and most people saying "Scheme is a Lisp" are basically talking about languages inspired by McCarthy's Lisp. But instead of making this reasonable counterargument, people start arguing that Scheme has a lot of similarities to Lisp (meaning Common Lisp). And that link is one of the more intelligent debates on the subject. It's a long-running debate and most places I've seen it discussed are even more confused. I just can't be arsed to give a fuck. Usually when I'm talking about Common Lisp I say "Common Lisp" because I value actual clear communication over saving six characters. And when I say "Lisp" I usually mean "languages inspired by McCarthy's Lisp" (which includes Scheme), but it's pretty rare I have anything useful to say about such a broad group of languages.

S4M 12y ago

http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp

davexunit 12y ago

Since this site requires JavaScript in order to work at all, is the source code available under a free license? I'm interested in participating, but not if I have to use proprietary software to do it.

weavie 12y ago
https://github.com/TelescopeJS/Telescope https://github.com/TelescopeJS/Telescope
- davexunit 12y ago
  So, it is just a telescope instance without any modifications? Okay, sounds good. Would be nice if they provided a link to download the exact source code that they are using.
  - lispersteve 12y ago
    It is pure unmodified Telescope. Will add an about page to site shortly.
    - davexunit 12y ago
      Thank you!

lispersteve 12y ago

So I wasn't really expecting this site to get to the front page of HN. It's pretty cool that it did though, I hope some people find it useful. Please contribute and get some good discussion going! I don't think things are working 100% at the minute which is probably due to the load - it is running on a $3 pm OVH VPS. I'm quite amazed it is still running at all. It is a Telescope app at the minute which uses Meteor, so there is no chance of it running without Javascript. It was just a quick evening idea that took about 5 minutes to set up. Telescope is pretty amazing how simple it is to set up. I hear you about being able to run without JS - especially within Emacs. Awesome idea! If the interest continues I will look into rewriting the site (in a Lisp obviously) to serve static content. Could be a fun little project. Thanks for the interest!

sgdesign 12y ago
Thanks for using Telescope :) Let me know if I can do anything to help!

microcolonel 12y ago

Too bad it's on Meteor, it's going to be a pain to keep this running. Good luck!

lispersteve 12y ago
I would be interested to hear what you think the pain points may be. In truth I just started this up on a whim and didn't look into things too closely.
- microcolonel 12y ago
  Biggest issue is basically that meteor has an ecosystem of dependencies that need their source code modified to work with Meteor, Meteor also relies entirely on global variables and a number of other uglies. I have been involved professionally with developing two medium-large applications on Meteor, and it's terrifying.(first time was when it was in alpha, so I forgave it, second time out of alpha, and it's almost worse). I think that HN is run from this https://github.com/arclanguage/anarki https://github.com/arclanguage/anarki or something similar. (there's a run-news script in there which IIRC instantiates something a whole lot like HN).

supervillain 12y ago

Am I the only one who notice the '.space' domain?