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Sorry JS developers. Guess you have to rewrite all your React apps in T3. Yes, I know you rewrote your Angular apps 6 months ago, your Ember apps a year ago, an

by hendzen 12y ago

Sorry JS developers. Guess you have to rewrite all your React apps in T3. Yes, I know you rewrote your Angular apps 6 months ago, your Ember apps a year ago, and your backbone.js apps before that, but that's just how front-end dev works. PS: I'm currently hiring for developers with 3+ years of T3 experience.

curun1r 12y ago
Luckily this doesn't appear to compete with React. This seems to be focused on composing a large-scale application from many different component applications. It's the kind of thing you have to do at large companies that have many different groups and are bad at communicating and collaborating on a single code base. React helps you simplify your view logic. The two should work together quite nicely. Just yesterday we had a meeting with the team at my company that's responsible for building the glue to allow our flagship product (~$4b profit per year) to be composed by independent releases created by independent teams that aren't always communicating on a regular basis. They built a library based on the whitepaper that was published by the main developer behind T3. At the time they started, there was nothing publicly available that served the need. But now, a company following in our footsteps will have T3 and won't have to waste the time that we did building it.
- Noobies 12y ago
  Yeah, doesn't compete with React. If React were being used client side only (not isomorphic) then one can roughly do stuff like https://gist.github.com/priyajeet/c2731789d3a688ee85a9 https://gist.github.com/priyajeet/c2731789d3a688ee85a9 (5-min hack)
- mparr4 12y ago
  Curious, what's the whitepaper?
steamy 12y ago
I'm currently hiring for developers with 3+ years of T3 experience. You should be one of these clueless HR managers (( 10+ years of jQuery Experience )) - Hello, jQuery wasn't around 10 years ago ... But seriously and with all due respect when will these people realize that the market for JS frameworks is INSANELY saturated and released products are ASTONISHINGLY optimized that there's no need for the time being to push yet another framework and torture us devs with the task to master it out of the fear of being left behind and feeling irrelevant skills-wise?
- coldtea 12y ago
  >when will these people realize that the market for JS frameworks is INSANELY saturated Probably when you realize that it's not a market. Nobody sells you anything. They offer it for free. Anybody who wants can use it, anybody who doesn't please don't let the door hit them on their way out.
  - steamy 12y ago
    Since everything has a price, there will be market for it. Anybody who wants can use it, anybody who doesn't please don't let the door hit them on their way out. I guess that you might know that we devs don't have the final say on all of this. Clients or employers dictate in one way or another the way to go with front end web dev. If it were for me and I guess many devs, we'd just settle for one or two frameworks max. and just ignore the rest and their existence. It's tough market out there dude!
    - notduncansmith 12y ago
      Respectfully, I've never had a client dictate the choice of front-end framework. That seems insane to me. Has that happened to you?
      - steamy 12y ago
        Yes on so many occasions. I want an Angular or Backbone FE coupled with MySQL/Apache or the complement of the MEAN stack for the BE.
        fishanz 12y ago
        These are two different kind of clients here. One actually has an inkling what these technologies are, the other just wants a deliverable.
- adamnemecek 12y ago
  > You should be one of these clueless HR managers (( 10+ years of jQuery Experience )) thatsthejoke.jpg
coderzach 12y ago
Oh poor you, all these people providing you with free tools. If it solves your problem, use it, if it doesn't don't. If you don't want to take the time to figure out if it will actually be useful for you, wait for early adopters to kick the tires, write blog posts, etc. Then if it gains enough critical mass, and it seems to solve your problem much better than how you previously did things, use it.
- steamy 12y ago
  Oh poor you, all these people providing you with free tools. If it solves your problem, use it, if it doesn't don't. Do you really believe that the motive behind this charity is 100% altruistic? Oh man, I gotta an ocean front house in Arizona to sell ya! Joking aside, these people publishing and releasing these frameworks to the public at min looking for reciprocal treatment in terms of improvements to their product made by the community and the general adoption of it by wide segments of the community making it easier for them to recruit and integrate new team members with minimal costs in training and sunken costs. So, this symbiotic relationship between us devs and these corporations is neither altruistic nor patrimonialistic
  - arcatek 12y ago
    Yeah, no, you don't make a project open-source and expect people to improve it as much as you will. It just doesn't work like this. An open-source project is a burden, you probably won't gain anything from them, and will probably lose a lot of time. Almost all of my projects are OS, but I don't do it expecting people to come over and help (even if it is sure nice when they do).
rvdm 12y ago
While this made me laugh because it's an exact description of the last 3 years of my professional life, I am happy new frameworks keep popping up. The holy grail of front end frameworks hasn't been invented yet but with each new framework we ( hopefully ) make some progress.
- idibidiart 12y ago
  It has been invented[1] and we're bandwagoneering[2, 3] it for you: 1. http://reagent-project.github.io/ http://reagent-project.github.io/ 2. http://www.meetup.com/Reagent-Minimalistic-React-for-ClojureScript/ http://www.meetup.com/Reagent-Minimalistic-React-for-Clojure... 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYzwfekWSzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYzwfekWSzQ
  - rvdm 12y ago
    I really like the concepts and simplicity you propose, but I don't think the issue lies with the framework developers. The web is still really young and the standard organizations are still figuring out what HTML / CSS / JS / etc… are all about. And I'm totally fine with that, we live in such an exciting time. It's like being around when written language was invented. Except with computers.
  - e12e 12y ago
    Amazing, a homepage for a js front-end framework that actually has useful content with js disabled, like a web page (as perhaps, opposed to a web app) should.
- e12e 12y ago
  I wonder if you've looked at riot.js[r]? I ask, because I've so far steered clear of js-heavy front-end development -- and in my search so far, it seems the best among simple, plain js frameworks. I'll probably end up playing with elm, or do something with clojure-script -- but riot.js checks a lot of boxes: * Is dogfooded for a real app by authors (muut.com Discussion-as-a-Service) * Is small (code size and file size) * Is simple * Avoids(?) being simplistic (too simple) * Has an idea of components Maybe not enough though... looks like js is rediscovering object-oriented MVC design slowly (a sane way to keep the html templates, the event listener/handling code and any needed css in one place). I think polymer might be the closest alternative, but muut has a comparison that doesn't speak too well for polymer: https://muut.com/riotjs/compare.html https://muut.com/riotjs/compare.html [r] https://muut.com/riotjs/ https://muut.com/riotjs/
poxrud 12y ago
Sorry but this is the kind of attitude that hinders progress. I often hear people say "don't use a framework, make your own", well these guys did and they released it for free, I don't see the problem. No one is forcing you to use it. Even if T3 has one good new idea that gets integrated into another framework then it's already a win.
- nostrademons 12y ago
  The point of the "don't use a framework, make your own" is that your needs are different enough from everyone else's needs that it's worth writing code just for your needs. The problem with releasing a framework is that your needs are different enough from everyone else's that it's not worth releasing that code. Personally I'm glad that T3 released their framework - it doesn't harm me, after all, and they did all the work - but I think some people have unrealistic expectations on the value of code re-use. The problem is the economic incentives in the software market: chances are, if your problem is close enough to somebody else's problem that you can re-use the bulk of their UI code, your market is too undifferentiated for you to exist as a separate company. When frameworks do attain market success (eg. JQuery in 2006, when IE6 was the dominant browser, Firefox & Safari were brand new, and Chrome didn't exist), it's usually because the big company in charge of the overall platform has been asleep at the wheel, and then the need for a framework disappears once they get their act together and start moving the platform forward (eg. JQuery in 2014).
  - rtpg 12y ago
    In the world of Enterprise software (which is where most of the money actually is), most peoples needs _aren't_ that different. Basically everyone is writing CRUD + data summaries. I'm curious as to why you think JQuery is a framework. From my view of things, it seems to be a library in all definitions I've encountered.
droidist2 12y ago
In regards to your job posting, I represent a firm of talented coders in India all with 3+ years of T3 experience. We can do the needful for your Java app.
- rvdm 12y ago
  I wish I could give you +100 for this.
- neya 12y ago
  Downvoted. Sorry, but generalized racist comments like these don't belong here. This isn't Reddit.
  - ollerac 12y ago
    Laugh much?
    - neya 12y ago
      Sorry, so, you're telling me that picking a subset of developers from a nation to represent the entire nation's developers should be found funny? I disagree.
      - bigtones 12y ago
        You have no sense of humor. We find this funny because we get emails like this every day. You are far too quick to pull the racist card.
        linuskendall 12y ago
        Calling it humor is generally a pretty good cover for both racism and sexism.
        neya 12y ago
        Precisely.
_pmf_ 12y ago
> I'm currently hiring for developers with 3+ years of T3 experience. I think the correct term you should use is Rockstar Ninja, but this might have changed, too.
serve_yay 12y ago
Oops, you missed a spot: "Furthermore, there's nothing preventing us from using Backbone, React or another framework in addition to T3, if we so desire." PS nobody goes out and rewrites their app just because a new thing came along. This performative exasperation with the amount of options in JS-land is getting old really quick.
- xamuel 12y ago
  >PS nobody goes out and rewrites their app just because a new thing came along In your experience, you mean. Some of us have experienced exactly what you just described.

by hendzen 12y ago

curun1r 12y ago

Luckily this doesn't appear to compete with React. This seems to be focused on composing a large-scale application from many different component applications. It's the kind of thing you have to do at large companies that have many different groups and are bad at communicating and collaborating on a single code base. React helps you simplify your view logic. The two should work together quite nicely. Just yesterday we had a meeting with the team at my company that's responsible for building the glue to allow our flagship product (~$4b profit per year) to be composed by independent releases created by independent teams that aren't always communicating on a regular basis. They built a library based on the whitepaper that was published by the main developer behind T3. At the time they started, there was nothing publicly available that served the need. But now, a company following in our footsteps will have T3 and won't have to waste the time that we did building it.

Noobies 12y ago
Yeah, doesn't compete with React. If React were being used client side only (not isomorphic) then one can roughly do stuff like https://gist.github.com/priyajeet/c2731789d3a688ee85a9 https://gist.github.com/priyajeet/c2731789d3a688ee85a9 (5-min hack)
mparr4 12y ago
Curious, what's the whitepaper?

steamy 12y ago

I'm currently hiring for developers with 3+ years of T3 experience. You should be one of these clueless HR managers (( 10+ years of jQuery Experience )) - Hello, jQuery wasn't around 10 years ago ... But seriously and with all due respect when will these people realize that the market for JS frameworks is INSANELY saturated and released products are ASTONISHINGLY optimized that there's no need for the time being to push yet another framework and torture us devs with the task to master it out of the fear of being left behind and feeling irrelevant skills-wise?

coldtea 12y ago
>when will these people realize that the market for JS frameworks is INSANELY saturated Probably when you realize that it's not a market. Nobody sells you anything. They offer it for free. Anybody who wants can use it, anybody who doesn't please don't let the door hit them on their way out.
- steamy 12y ago
  Since everything has a price, there will be market for it. Anybody who wants can use it, anybody who doesn't please don't let the door hit them on their way out. I guess that you might know that we devs don't have the final say on all of this. Clients or employers dictate in one way or another the way to go with front end web dev. If it were for me and I guess many devs, we'd just settle for one or two frameworks max. and just ignore the rest and their existence. It's tough market out there dude!
  - notduncansmith 12y ago
    Respectfully, I've never had a client dictate the choice of front-end framework. That seems insane to me. Has that happened to you?
    - steamy 12y ago
      Yes on so many occasions. I want an Angular or Backbone FE coupled with MySQL/Apache or the complement of the MEAN stack for the BE.
      - fishanz 12y ago
        These are two different kind of clients here. One actually has an inkling what these technologies are, the other just wants a deliverable.
adamnemecek 12y ago
> You should be one of these clueless HR managers (( 10+ years of jQuery Experience )) thatsthejoke.jpg

coderzach 12y ago

Oh poor you, all these people providing you with free tools. If it solves your problem, use it, if it doesn't don't. If you don't want to take the time to figure out if it will actually be useful for you, wait for early adopters to kick the tires, write blog posts, etc. Then if it gains enough critical mass, and it seems to solve your problem much better than how you previously did things, use it.

steamy 12y ago
Oh poor you, all these people providing you with free tools. If it solves your problem, use it, if it doesn't don't. Do you really believe that the motive behind this charity is 100% altruistic? Oh man, I gotta an ocean front house in Arizona to sell ya! Joking aside, these people publishing and releasing these frameworks to the public at min looking for reciprocal treatment in terms of improvements to their product made by the community and the general adoption of it by wide segments of the community making it easier for them to recruit and integrate new team members with minimal costs in training and sunken costs. So, this symbiotic relationship between us devs and these corporations is neither altruistic nor patrimonialistic
- arcatek 12y ago
  Yeah, no, you don't make a project open-source and expect people to improve it as much as you will. It just doesn't work like this. An open-source project is a burden, you probably won't gain anything from them, and will probably lose a lot of time. Almost all of my projects are OS, but I don't do it expecting people to come over and help (even if it is sure nice when they do).

rvdm 12y ago

While this made me laugh because it's an exact description of the last 3 years of my professional life, I am happy new frameworks keep popping up. The holy grail of front end frameworks hasn't been invented yet but with each new framework we ( hopefully ) make some progress.

idibidiart 12y ago
It has been invented[1] and we're bandwagoneering[2, 3] it for you: 1. http://reagent-project.github.io/ http://reagent-project.github.io/ 2. http://www.meetup.com/Reagent-Minimalistic-React-for-ClojureScript/ http://www.meetup.com/Reagent-Minimalistic-React-for-Clojure... 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYzwfekWSzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYzwfekWSzQ
- rvdm 12y ago
  I really like the concepts and simplicity you propose, but I don't think the issue lies with the framework developers. The web is still really young and the standard organizations are still figuring out what HTML / CSS / JS / etc… are all about. And I'm totally fine with that, we live in such an exciting time. It's like being around when written language was invented. Except with computers.
- e12e 12y ago
  Amazing, a homepage for a js front-end framework that actually has useful content with js disabled, like a web page (as perhaps, opposed to a web app) should.
e12e 12y ago
I wonder if you've looked at riot.js[r]? I ask, because I've so far steered clear of js-heavy front-end development -- and in my search so far, it seems the best among simple, plain js frameworks. I'll probably end up playing with elm, or do something with clojure-script -- but riot.js checks a lot of boxes: * Is dogfooded for a real app by authors (muut.com Discussion-as-a-Service) * Is small (code size and file size) * Is simple * Avoids(?) being simplistic (too simple) * Has an idea of components Maybe not enough though... looks like js is rediscovering object-oriented MVC design slowly (a sane way to keep the html templates, the event listener/handling code and any needed css in one place). I think polymer might be the closest alternative, but muut has a comparison that doesn't speak too well for polymer: https://muut.com/riotjs/compare.html https://muut.com/riotjs/compare.html [r] https://muut.com/riotjs/ https://muut.com/riotjs/

poxrud 12y ago

Sorry but this is the kind of attitude that hinders progress. I often hear people say "don't use a framework, make your own", well these guys did and they released it for free, I don't see the problem. No one is forcing you to use it. Even if T3 has one good new idea that gets integrated into another framework then it's already a win.

nostrademons 12y ago
The point of the "don't use a framework, make your own" is that your needs are different enough from everyone else's needs that it's worth writing code just for your needs. The problem with releasing a framework is that your needs are different enough from everyone else's that it's not worth releasing that code. Personally I'm glad that T3 released their framework - it doesn't harm me, after all, and they did all the work - but I think some people have unrealistic expectations on the value of code re-use. The problem is the economic incentives in the software market: chances are, if your problem is close enough to somebody else's problem that you can re-use the bulk of their UI code, your market is too undifferentiated for you to exist as a separate company. When frameworks do attain market success (eg. JQuery in 2006, when IE6 was the dominant browser, Firefox & Safari were brand new, and Chrome didn't exist), it's usually because the big company in charge of the overall platform has been asleep at the wheel, and then the need for a framework disappears once they get their act together and start moving the platform forward (eg. JQuery in 2014).
- rtpg 12y ago
  In the world of Enterprise software (which is where most of the money actually is), most peoples needs _aren't_ that different. Basically everyone is writing CRUD + data summaries. I'm curious as to why you think JQuery is a framework. From my view of things, it seems to be a library in all definitions I've encountered.

droidist2 12y ago

In regards to your job posting, I represent a firm of talented coders in India all with 3+ years of T3 experience. We can do the needful for your Java app.

rvdm 12y ago
I wish I could give you +100 for this.
neya 12y ago
Downvoted. Sorry, but generalized racist comments like these don't belong here. This isn't Reddit.
- ollerac 12y ago
  Laugh much?
  - neya 12y ago
    Sorry, so, you're telling me that picking a subset of developers from a nation to represent the entire nation's developers should be found funny? I disagree.
    - bigtones 12y ago
      You have no sense of humor. We find this funny because we get emails like this every day. You are far too quick to pull the racist card.
      - linuskendall 12y ago
        Calling it humor is generally a pretty good cover for both racism and sexism.
        neya 12y ago
        Precisely.

_pmf_ 12y ago

> I'm currently hiring for developers with 3+ years of T3 experience. I think the correct term you should use is Rockstar Ninja, but this might have changed, too.

serve_yay 12y ago

Oops, you missed a spot: "Furthermore, there's nothing preventing us from using Backbone, React or another framework in addition to T3, if we so desire." PS nobody goes out and rewrites their app just because a new thing came along. This performative exasperation with the amount of options in JS-land is getting old really quick.

xamuel 12y ago
>PS nobody goes out and rewrites their app just because a new thing came along In your experience, you mean. Some of us have experienced exactly what you just described.