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I'm not sure how your post relates to mine. I'm hiring a data team. Based on the applicant pool it'll probably be me and 3 Punjabi males assuming I hire purely

I'm not sure how your post relates to mine. I'm hiring a data team. Based on the applicant pool it'll probably be me and 3 Punjabi males assuming I hire purely based on ability [1]. My claim is that I'll get no marginal value out of hiring a Maharashtrian, an African or a westerner over an equally qualified Punjabi. I provide no special western perspective on Kafka. I also don't know why it would be the "right thing to do" to hire a Maharashtrian relative over a Punjabi - but that might be because I don't believe in group rights. If you do, I'd love to know how you choose which groups are relevant - there are, after all, 2^{6 billion} subgroups of humanity. [1] I take pains to do exactly that - I skip resumes and look at github, follow scripted interviews with objective criteria, etc.

kasey_junk 12y ago
You asked for how a diversity of thinking improves a company. A specific example of that is a more diverse workforce will be more inclusive at the funnel end of the hiring pipeline, making your applicant pool better. It doesn't matter that you provide no western perspective on Kafka. What matters is that your western perspective provides no negative impact to your ability to work on Kafka problems. If there were a systematic bias against westerners that meant they were unlikely to apply for, get callbacks for, or be able to work in your environment with Kafka, actively removing those impediments is an opportunity. The larger the population being biased against and the more acute the need for applicants is, the larger the opportunity. Framing this as a "hire one person over another" or as a "rights" issue is incorrect. Many of the systematic biases can be corrected for in ways that either don't cost the unbiased set anything, or provide advantages to that set as well. Further, this is an issue of courtesy and empathy, not rights. No one has the right to my courtesy or empathy, but providing it broadly is the right thing to do.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  Actually I said "I can't think of a single advantage beyond PR". You don't seem to disagree.
  - kasey_junk 12y ago
    A better work environment for more of the employees and a wider applicant pool with more qualified applicants making it through the pipeline doesn't seem to be PR by my definition, but maybe if it is by yours, then I suppose we don't disagree.
    - yummyfajitas 12y ago
      By "PR" I mean "affects external perception of the company". Encouraging people to apply falls into that category. I don't see how the work environment is made better by my presence. I'm not going to be any nicer to minorities than my majority coworkers. And quite honestly, if someone of my race considers the environment better because they have a firangi to talk to, I'm unlikely to get along well with them.
      - jklein11 12y ago
        Are you saying that PR is not a valid business concern? Investor's and Consumer's perception of a company is as relevant as the products quality. Don't you think that people would be more hesitant to do business with a company labeled as "racist" in the public's opinion?
        yummyfajitas 12y ago
        You've lost the thread. I'm originally responding to this: ...bringing in ideas that are different to what we have now...In the case of tech, that's women, ethnic minorities, LGBQT+, non-tech, etc. I wasn't responding to this: ...bringing in people who are superficially different but think the same way in order to manipulate the media... Obviously PR matters and I'm happy to let my company exploit my race for that purpose (though I probably wouldn't have taken the job if I thought that was a significant factor). But that's completely tangential to the original point.
      - maxerickson 12y ago
        And quite honestly, if someone of my race considers the environment better because they have a firangi to talk to, I'm unlikely to get along well with them. This sort of stereotype probably has the predictive value of a D20 roll. Phil's an 11, I spit in his lunch. Nancy is a 19, no problems expected.
phamilton 12y ago
I think there are secondary effects. While technical expertise is probably not going to be affected, team dynamics will be affected through diversity in critical thinking and expression. That's not the same as race/gender/etc. Too much conformity within a team causes the team to embrace that common ground rather than embrace differences. I'm a fairly loud, direct person. I work with other loud and direct people. We added someone to our team who is a bit quieter and quite frankly thoughtful onto the team. The effect wasn't so much that (s)he changed our technical decisions, but that we as a team started to give people apace for less confrontational disagreement. It improved our individual abilities to communicate and approach a problem from multiple angles. That is why diversity in personality is important. The hypothesis is then that race/gender/etc is correlated with intellectual diversity. Anecdotal evidence yes, but something I've found valuable.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  That's not the same as race/gender/etc. No, it's not. Which is my point. If you want to make the argument that racial/gender/etc groups think differently, be my guest - but that also implies that an unbiased hiring process might have disparate impact. E.g., if onion2k's hypothesis that women are more emotional than men is correct, then a hiring process aiming for rationalism might hire fewer women.

kasey_junk 12y ago

You asked for how a diversity of thinking improves a company. A specific example of that is a more diverse workforce will be more inclusive at the funnel end of the hiring pipeline, making your applicant pool better. It doesn't matter that you provide no western perspective on Kafka. What matters is that your western perspective provides no negative impact to your ability to work on Kafka problems. If there were a systematic bias against westerners that meant they were unlikely to apply for, get callbacks for, or be able to work in your environment with Kafka, actively removing those impediments is an opportunity. The larger the population being biased against and the more acute the need for applicants is, the larger the opportunity. Framing this as a "hire one person over another" or as a "rights" issue is incorrect. Many of the systematic biases can be corrected for in ways that either don't cost the unbiased set anything, or provide advantages to that set as well. Further, this is an issue of courtesy and empathy, not rights. No one has the right to my courtesy or empathy, but providing it broadly is the right thing to do.

yummyfajitas 12y ago
Actually I said "I can't think of a single advantage beyond PR". You don't seem to disagree.
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  A better work environment for more of the employees and a wider applicant pool with more qualified applicants making it through the pipeline doesn't seem to be PR by my definition, but maybe if it is by yours, then I suppose we don't disagree.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    By "PR" I mean "affects external perception of the company". Encouraging people to apply falls into that category. I don't see how the work environment is made better by my presence. I'm not going to be any nicer to minorities than my majority coworkers. And quite honestly, if someone of my race considers the environment better because they have a firangi to talk to, I'm unlikely to get along well with them.
    - jklein11 12y ago
      Are you saying that PR is not a valid business concern? Investor's and Consumer's perception of a company is as relevant as the products quality. Don't you think that people would be more hesitant to do business with a company labeled as "racist" in the public's opinion?
      - yummyfajitas 12y ago
        You've lost the thread. I'm originally responding to this: ...bringing in ideas that are different to what we have now...In the case of tech, that's women, ethnic minorities, LGBQT+, non-tech, etc. I wasn't responding to this: ...bringing in people who are superficially different but think the same way in order to manipulate the media... Obviously PR matters and I'm happy to let my company exploit my race for that purpose (though I probably wouldn't have taken the job if I thought that was a significant factor). But that's completely tangential to the original point.
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      And quite honestly, if someone of my race considers the environment better because they have a firangi to talk to, I'm unlikely to get along well with them. This sort of stereotype probably has the predictive value of a D20 roll. Phil's an 11, I spit in his lunch. Nancy is a 19, no problems expected.

phamilton 12y ago

I think there are secondary effects. While technical expertise is probably not going to be affected, team dynamics will be affected through diversity in critical thinking and expression. That's not the same as race/gender/etc. Too much conformity within a team causes the team to embrace that common ground rather than embrace differences. I'm a fairly loud, direct person. I work with other loud and direct people. We added someone to our team who is a bit quieter and quite frankly thoughtful onto the team. The effect wasn't so much that (s)he changed our technical decisions, but that we as a team started to give people apace for less confrontational disagreement. It improved our individual abilities to communicate and approach a problem from multiple angles. That is why diversity in personality is important. The hypothesis is then that race/gender/etc is correlated with intellectual diversity. Anecdotal evidence yes, but something I've found valuable.

yummyfajitas 12y ago
That's not the same as race/gender/etc. No, it's not. Which is my point. If you want to make the argument that racial/gender/etc groups think differently, be my guest - but that also implies that an unbiased hiring process might have disparate impact. E.g., if onion2k's hypothesis that women are more emotional than men is correct, then a hiring process aiming for rationalism might hire fewer women.