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I was deeply upset by this on an emotional level, mostly because for all of my life, I have not had an intuitive hold of this kind of communication. Consequentl

I was deeply upset by this on an emotional level, mostly because for all of my life, I have not had an intuitive hold of this kind of communication. Consequently, I have been operating on an entirely separate plane, making it difficult to relate to and understand other people. I would truly appreciate advice from someone who understands my situation. I am not interested in sympathy.

duh 17y ago
> And the third and most important reason of course, is that your moves have to be backed up by appropriate bets using your table stakes, exposing you to real risks and rewards This is the most important line of the article, in my opinion. First step to learning how to play this game is setting goals for yourself which will expose you to real risk if you were to try to achieve them in earnest. In the tech world the most common place this sort of game is played out is the recruiter/engineer relationship. Spineless developers are favorite targets for sociopath recruiters. Next time one of them calls you, treat it like a game in which you are trying to dominate him or her.
- DTrejo 17y ago
  Are you saying the recruiters manipulate developers into working for them?
  - duh 17y ago
    Most of the time, yeah. The margins are massive. Most developers are terrible negotiators who roll over for $40-75/hour (and think they are getting a great deal), when recruiters and consulting firms routinely charge their clients $150+/hr on the back end. It's pretty easy to see why the word "loser" is used in the article to describe these people.
    - gaius 17y ago
      You can use this to your advantage in permanent roles where the recruiter's cut is a percentage of your starting salary.
      - duh 17y ago
        That's right, one of the first steps to becoming a ruthless sociopath is to align your interests with the right people. IT could learn a few things from the pro sports/entertainment worlds. A good engineer ("rockstar", as it were) can easily make their corporate overlords just as much money as a real rock star or pro athlete.
nazgulnarsil 17y ago
I think a lot of engineering types are out in the cold on this one. what helped me was studying acting (the art of believably imitating social situations). http://greenlightwiki.com/improv/Status http://greenlightwiki.com/improv/Status start reading Robin Hanson's blog Overcoming Bias, he's an economics professor who posts a lot about signaling.
- zackattack 17y ago
  That article is tremendously helpful because I don't have a natural intuitive grasp of status. Thank you. One thing that confuses me is when it's strategic to act high status, and when it's strategic to act low status. For example, sometimes, when you need something from someone - do you want to raise their status, and make them like you? Or do you want to convey high status, so they will want to associate with you? Or should you try to juggle raising your status and then lowering it, in order to achieve the illusion of parity? E.g. Selling to a customer, getting a job, getting help with something in the workplace. . . Somebody has got to have written something about this. Please help.
  - nazgulnarsil 17y ago
    How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. the original. so lucid I doubt it will ever be dethroned as the best. hmm, can't find an online version right now even though I know multiple sites have a plain text version. anyone have a link? a direct answer: I personally think it's better to act high status the vast majority of the time, only acting lower status when it is absolutely required. when I started doing this people's reaction to me immensely improved (night and day difference).
    - zackattack 17y ago
      Well, doesn't How to Win Friends and Influence People offer advice like sincere and lavish praise? That's low-status, unless coming from the position of an authority position (high-status). Maybe I'll do some experiments. Something else I am interested in is how social/contextual status subconsciously sabotages people in the context of sport or business.
oostevo 17y ago
I completely understand how you feel. I've been there. I think a key takeaway from that article, that the author didn't get around to stating explicitly, is that for a 'sociopath', _everything_ is a negotiation. Everything. In fact, all of Powertalk is subtle positional negotiation hidden in everyday language. (For the security research-minded, I think a helpful metaphor might be covert channel information attacks/information passing). If Powertalk is negotiation, then learning how to actually negotiate might help. Luckily, there are hundreds if not thousands of books written on the subject. _Negotiation Genius_, by Malhotra, _Bargaining for Advantage, by Snell, and _Negotiating Game_, by Karrass are all seminal works. I've found them helpful. (Note that these books are usually written from the perspective of someone trying to sell a thing or a service. It takes a bit of a mental leap to figure out how to apply these strategies to the rest of life, but if you're intelligent enough to be a reader of Hacker News, I'm sure it won't be that hard.)
madair 17y ago
Ahahaha. Are you going for Sociopathic Posturetalk, or sarcastic Gametalk, also by a sociopath? In either or any case, nice! Edit: Oh, you're serious. Oops. Well I enjoyed reading it as sarcastic gametalk ;-)
visitor4rmindia 17y ago
Understanding this level of communication becomes simpler if you understand the dynamics at play in office relationships. Listen to gossip, try to understand the way your boss feels about his boss. About his peers. About his portfolio. And look for leverage. <PostureTalk>I find it exhausting and truly boring so I don't do it. But maybe that's because my personality doesn't enjoy power plays and I want a happy life over a rich/powerful one.</PostureTalk>
itgoon 17y ago
Get out more. Pick a hobby that requires some kind of interaction - the drama class is a fine example - and then commit yourself to it for at least a year. You don't need to "relate", or "understand" other people. You just need to recognize and develop an appreciation for their point of view, even if it doesn't make sense to you. The best way to do that is to immerse yourself in it. If "people" were a new programming language that you needed to learn, how much would you dedicate to learning it? If it were a language that you would be required to use for the rest of your life, how much would you give to it? It won't be easy, and it won't come all at once. I assure you, as someone who has gone through all of this, that it is totally worthwhile. Professionally and personally.

duh 17y ago

> And the third and most important reason of course, is that your moves have to be backed up by appropriate bets using your table stakes, exposing you to real risks and rewards This is the most important line of the article, in my opinion. First step to learning how to play this game is setting goals for yourself which will expose you to real risk if you were to try to achieve them in earnest. In the tech world the most common place this sort of game is played out is the recruiter/engineer relationship. Spineless developers are favorite targets for sociopath recruiters. Next time one of them calls you, treat it like a game in which you are trying to dominate him or her.

DTrejo 17y ago
Are you saying the recruiters manipulate developers into working for them?
- duh 17y ago
  Most of the time, yeah. The margins are massive. Most developers are terrible negotiators who roll over for $40-75/hour (and think they are getting a great deal), when recruiters and consulting firms routinely charge their clients $150+/hr on the back end. It's pretty easy to see why the word "loser" is used in the article to describe these people.
  - gaius 17y ago
    You can use this to your advantage in permanent roles where the recruiter's cut is a percentage of your starting salary.
    - duh 17y ago
      That's right, one of the first steps to becoming a ruthless sociopath is to align your interests with the right people. IT could learn a few things from the pro sports/entertainment worlds. A good engineer ("rockstar", as it were) can easily make their corporate overlords just as much money as a real rock star or pro athlete.

nazgulnarsil 17y ago

I think a lot of engineering types are out in the cold on this one. what helped me was studying acting (the art of believably imitating social situations). http://greenlightwiki.com/improv/Status http://greenlightwiki.com/improv/Status start reading Robin Hanson's blog Overcoming Bias, he's an economics professor who posts a lot about signaling.

zackattack 17y ago
That article is tremendously helpful because I don't have a natural intuitive grasp of status. Thank you. One thing that confuses me is when it's strategic to act high status, and when it's strategic to act low status. For example, sometimes, when you need something from someone - do you want to raise their status, and make them like you? Or do you want to convey high status, so they will want to associate with you? Or should you try to juggle raising your status and then lowering it, in order to achieve the illusion of parity? E.g. Selling to a customer, getting a job, getting help with something in the workplace. . . Somebody has got to have written something about this. Please help.
- nazgulnarsil 17y ago
  How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. the original. so lucid I doubt it will ever be dethroned as the best. hmm, can't find an online version right now even though I know multiple sites have a plain text version. anyone have a link? a direct answer: I personally think it's better to act high status the vast majority of the time, only acting lower status when it is absolutely required. when I started doing this people's reaction to me immensely improved (night and day difference).
  - zackattack 17y ago
    Well, doesn't How to Win Friends and Influence People offer advice like sincere and lavish praise? That's low-status, unless coming from the position of an authority position (high-status). Maybe I'll do some experiments. Something else I am interested in is how social/contextual status subconsciously sabotages people in the context of sport or business.

oostevo 17y ago

I completely understand how you feel. I've been there. I think a key takeaway from that article, that the author didn't get around to stating explicitly, is that for a 'sociopath', _everything_ is a negotiation. Everything. In fact, all of Powertalk is subtle positional negotiation hidden in everyday language. (For the security research-minded, I think a helpful metaphor might be covert channel information attacks/information passing). If Powertalk is negotiation, then learning how to actually negotiate might help. Luckily, there are hundreds if not thousands of books written on the subject. _Negotiation Genius_, by Malhotra, _Bargaining for Advantage, by Snell, and _Negotiating Game_, by Karrass are all seminal works. I've found them helpful. (Note that these books are usually written from the perspective of someone trying to sell a thing or a service. It takes a bit of a mental leap to figure out how to apply these strategies to the rest of life, but if you're intelligent enough to be a reader of Hacker News, I'm sure it won't be that hard.)

madair 17y ago

Ahahaha. Are you going for Sociopathic Posturetalk, or sarcastic Gametalk, also by a sociopath? In either or any case, nice! Edit: Oh, you're serious. Oops. Well I enjoyed reading it as sarcastic gametalk ;-)

visitor4rmindia 17y ago

Understanding this level of communication becomes simpler if you understand the dynamics at play in office relationships. Listen to gossip, try to understand the way your boss feels about his boss. About his peers. About his portfolio. And look for leverage. <PostureTalk>I find it exhausting and truly boring so I don't do it. But maybe that's because my personality doesn't enjoy power plays and I want a happy life over a rich/powerful one.</PostureTalk>

itgoon 17y ago

Get out more. Pick a hobby that requires some kind of interaction - the drama class is a fine example - and then commit yourself to it for at least a year. You don't need to "relate", or "understand" other people. You just need to recognize and develop an appreciation for their point of view, even if it doesn't make sense to you. The best way to do that is to immerse yourself in it. If "people" were a new programming language that you needed to learn, how much would you dedicate to learning it? If it were a language that you would be required to use for the rest of your life, how much would you give to it? It won't be easy, and it won't come all at once. I assure you, as someone who has gone through all of this, that it is totally worthwhile. Professionally and personally.