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OVH threatens to leave if latest French surveillance law passes
- pol0nium 12y agoActually the threat was more about investing for the next datacenters outside of France. It's highly unlikely they'll relocate the current ones.
- pmontra 12y agoThey can start selling new servers only in data centers outside France, move the current VPSes and eventually shut down or sell the data center. The transition can last years but it can be done. By the way, my bet is that France lawmakers don't even know that OVH exists (unless they do some lobbying) and don't know it's the third largest in the world. Now that they know they'll be counting votes gained against votes lost for every option (and money too). Then they'll decide what to do.
- motdiem 12y agoI've been following the debate in France, and the political response to concerns about the new surveillance law has been extraordinarily tone-deaf - the parliament has been very much in a "you're either with us or you're a terrorist" mode from the start. Hopefully, now that ovh and other French vendors have started to be vocal about it, some aspects of the law might be improved. I'm not holding my breath though.
- mercurial 12y agoNeither am I. On the other hand, what does difference will it make in practice? As far as I understand, the law is in a large part about making legal all the currently unlawful telecommunication interception done by the intelligence services, and making sure that nobody is accountable for anything. So in this regard, it does not change the statu quo - intelligence services will more bound by the law than they were before, and there is zero political will to introduce even something as ineffective as the FISA secret courts.
- linschn 12y agoI don't understand this argument. If something illegal is going on anyway, how is making it legal the right answer ? Surveillance being illegal protects us from it being used against us in legal proceedings. Even if we can't prevent spies from spying, at least we don't have to worry about the evidence they collect being used in court.
- mercurial 12y ago> If something illegal is going on anyway, how is making it legal the right answer ? Where do I say that? What I am saying is that French intelligence services do not care what the law say, and the government is not interested in having existing laws enforced. As long as there is no independent entity to control their activity, with real power, these laws may as well be printed on toilet paper. > Even if we can't prevent spies from spying, at least we don't have to worry about the evidence they collect being used in court. That is a fair point, but if law enforcement agencies like Tracfin are already using this data anyway, it means we are not protected with the current laws.
- dagw 12y agoat least we don't have to worry about the evidence they collect being used in court. That's a distinctly US concept. In Europe in general all evidence is a priori admissible no matter how it was collected. It is them up to the lawyers and judges to argue that the way this evidence was collected makes it inadmissible in this situation on a case by case basis. So as long as an argument can be made that the illegality of the method used to collect the evidence didn't affect the reliability of the evidence then it can be used.
- sergiosgc 12y ago> In Europe in general all evidence is a priori admissible no matter how it was collected. That is not the case in Portugal and, since our laws are mostly inspired by French laws, I'd imagine that is not the case in France. Illegally obtained evidence, or evidence where there is a relevant probability that the chain of custody was compromised, is not admissible in court.
- bontoJR 12y ago> "you're either with us or you're a terrorist" It looks like is a very common argumentation for politicians. Another one is: "You don't have to care if you don't have anything to hide". I think both paths are extremely and deeply wrong. We can't put in prison the whole Afghanistan's population because just thousands of individuals embraced terrorism, in the same way we cannot track an entire nation just because 8-9 people are planning a terrorist attack. There are way healthier to do it.
- arcatek 12y ago> "You don't have to care if you don't have anything to hide" I never quite understood this argument. We have something to hide, that's the whole point. I don't want somebody to look at my phone messages. I don't want to share with the government every sily joke that I may say at home. Should I work on secret businesses, I certainly wouldn't want any random agent to read about what I'm working on. We all have something to hide, the whole argument is bogus ...
- rtpg 12y agoOne thing brought up in the article is that currently French surveillance services are basically working carte blanche, with absolutely no legal checks. Le Monde had a set of articles about some of this surveillance framework brought to light by the Snowden leaks, but of course the French press didn't talk about it, since the NSA stories were somehow "more relevant to the public". For all the fingerpointing at the US for the Patriot act and the NSA, France's surveillance state is pretty ominous and there are basically no rules.
- mercurial 12y agoPrecisely. The US has rules which do not work, and France is a free-for-all (I suspect with an added emphasis on "economic intelligence").
- linschn 12y agoThere are rules, and the fact that the French government break those all the time is no excuse when finally somebody ends up being prosecuted : http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2014/04/09/squarcini-condamne-a-8000-euros-d-amende-dans-l-affaire-des-fadettes-du-monde_4398203_3224.html http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2014/04/09/squarcini-c... https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_des_%C3%A9coutes_de_l%27%C3%89lys%C3%A9e https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_des_%C3%A9coutes_de_l%...
- mercurial 12y agoIn some areas, yes. But I am under the impression that as long as they can say "Secret Défense", the DGSE people can do whatever they want.
- motdiem 12y agoThat is largely correct. One way to look at the french state is that it is more worried about maintaining order than serving justice. And historically, the population has largely supported this stance. (unfortunately imo)
- wlesieutre 12y ago
- linschn 12y agoIt's not to late for French citizens to call their representatives. Find who to call here : http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/qui/circonscriptions/?hc_location=ufi http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/qui/circonscriptions/?h... And point them to there : https://sous-surveillance.fr/#/ https://sous-surveillance.fr/#/ and there : https://wiki.laquadrature.net/Amender_le_PJL_Renseignement https://wiki.laquadrature.net/Amender_le_PJL_Renseignement Talk about it online and IRL, and once the law inevitably pass, install Enigmail and TrueCrypt on your relative's computers.
- bigbugbag 12y agosupport caliopen too.
- zz1 12y agohttps://caliopen.org https://caliopen.org https://blog.caliopen.org https://blog.caliopen.org
- toxicFork 12y agoSo, TrueCrypt has been audited[0][1], but abandoned. Do we use it as it is, or use a fork that will be more up-to-date? Can we actually fork it? Some comments on [1] mention that it's illegal to fork it. Others point to existing forks. I am just confused about what to do, or even what other people are doing. What are the thoughts of the HN community regarding TrueCrypt? [0] http://istruecryptauditedyet.com/ http://istruecryptauditedyet.com/ [1] http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2015/04/truecrypt-report.html http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2015/04/truecrypt-re...
- blueskin_ 12y agoUse it. 7.1a has been shown safe. Watch https://truecrypt.ch/ https://truecrypt.ch/ for news about any developments (CipherShed and/or VeraCrypt) as well as being a trusted source for 7.1a.
- diyorgasms 12y agoIf you do a cursory search on the audit, you will find the discussion here about the second link. Generally, TrueCrypt seems to be trustworthy still. Forks generally seem permissible, but must not use the TrueCrypt name. While forks may not technically be allowed, making any sort of claim against a forked project would require the authors of TrueCrypt to de-anonymize themselves, which seems unlikely. That being said, this article is about data in transit, and TrueCrypt protects data at rest. I'm sure there is a better place to be having this conversation about TrueCrypt.
- fit2rule 12y agoPopquiz: where could OVH move to that wouldn't be subject to heinous government surveillance? There aren't many safe havens left in the world, beyond the 5-eyes/Euro-clan reach ..
- SG- 12y agoThere's a lot of places in Europe they could move to that won't be as bad as what France is trying to do, they also have a nice footprint in Canada (obviously this wouldn't really help customers in Europe that want to be close). The big issue here isn't about NSA style monitoring of "the Internet", it's about black boxes that would be required to be installed in their network to do whatever monitoring they wanted.
- fit2rule 12y agoYou mean legally doing that. They're already illegally doing it in various trenches, and so on, anyway. And that is sort of the point. I think this is a tiger vs. paperbag issue, personally. The fact is, if companies are serious, they'll start setting up their own encrypted links, actively, and fighting back. Then it won't be an issue where, locality-wise, you set up the servers.
- theshrike79 12y agoFinland is at least attempting to remain a country without any (official) spying. Combine that with ample free space for server farms in the form of closed army bases inside mountains and old factories and you have a nice home for a bunch of servers even on a large scale. But we won't know for sure until this years' elections how the political environment changes wrt to internet spying.
- hsivonen 12y agoWhat Finland is attempting seems to depend on which ministry you ask.
- zz1 12y agoOctave said they are considering building new datacenters in Germany, Italy and Poland.
- Ninn 12y agoAs a customer, THANK YOU!
- bigbugbag 12y agoHere is the original annoucement in french: https://www.ovh.com/fr/news/articles/a1743.le-gouvernement-veut-il-contraindre-les-hebergeurs-internet-a-l-exil https://www.ovh.com/fr/news/articles/a1743.le-gouvernement-v...
- Socketubs 12y agoNot only signed by OVH, but AFHADS, Gandi, IDS, Ikoula, Lomaco and Online.
- aikah 12y agoIf UMP/UDI tried to do the same, people would be in the streets protesting and "socialist" politicians would be protesting at the parliament, like when HADOPI was voted. But for some reason when "socialists" do it, it's fine. These crooks that call themself "socialists" are even more dangerous than their "right wing" equivalent. They didn't remove HADOPI by the way, it's still there. Anybody who vote right wing might be an idiot, but anybody who vote "socialist" is a greater dumb fuck. It sucks for the french economy but many startups or businesses like OVH don't need to stay in France anymore. Because who can believe in the future of this country with these assholes in power?
- bigbugbag 12y agoYou're missing something here, the "socialist party" is and has long been a right wing party, to the left of the further right ump, itself a bit to the left of the far right front national. But the point is that wherever the party falls is irrelevant, political parties have been mostly puppets pushing corporatist agendas for quite a while.
- aikah 12y agoI'm not missing anything, that's why I put "socialists" in quotes. These people aren't "socialists" of course they are a fraud. Frankly I shouldn't even talk about french politics anymore, things are a bit desperate,it's a race to the bottom.But I guess it's happening everywhere. Or it has always been like this and it's just more obvious today, I don't know.
- atmosx 12y agoSocialism is awful in the EU. See what is happening to Greece? It's been cornered by virtually every other state in the EU. And no, it's not about broken state economics, that's fairy tales for little kids, it's mostly about not voting what Brussels/Germany wants. They want to set an example to everyone else. The only reason Greece is still in, it's because no one is sure what's gonna happen once it's ousted. So generally speaking, you either vote for Holande/Sarkozy or you're gonna face the same kind of treatment. And from what I've seen so far, LePen apart, you don't have any other politician is likely to go a head to head with Merkel.
- fapjacks 12y agoI can't be happy enough that my money is going to a company willing to say and do these things. Thank you so much, OVH! Mad respect!
- dest 12y agoI could not agree more. My money also goes to them.
- jmnicolas 12y agoCome on, they're doing it for business reasons, not ideology.
- yellowapple 12y agoAnd that doesn't count... why? The fact that they realize that it's better business to be anti-surveillance is even more reason to celebrate.
- throwaway7767 12y agoI once ordered a server from them, they took my money and then asked me to send a scan of my passport. I told them no and eventually got a refund. Seems weird that they're fighting for privacy now. I can understand a hosting provider not wanting to host for just anyone (or at least charging a premium for unknown customers), but do people actually send scans of their passports? Seems like asking for identity theft to me.
- doe88 12y agoAs crazy as it may sound I think their dream (to French administration, politics) is to have what NSA has done in the US, against all common sense they look at it with envy. The only reason it is not there yet is that they don't have the money to fully implement it. Sadly in this day and age my country is more prompt to say to others what they should do than to make what it is required to maintain a real democracy at home. Shameful.
- blacktulip 12y agoI have a few servers with them and am happy to see they spoke up. I also have one server with online.net - another FR company. If the law passes I would probably terminate that server.
- zz1 12y agoOnline shares the same exact position of OVH
- strooper 12y agoWhen citizens of the world are failing to comprehend the idea of electronic surveillance, electronics and software pioneers and developers should take the lead in pushing those ideas to the cliff.
- afandian 12y agoI saw the hashtag #ni-pigeons-ni-espions. What does 'pigeons' mean in English (beyond 'pigeons')?
- linschn 12y agoSucker ? One who is being conned.
- foobarge 12y agoSucker's better: Neither suckers nor spies.
- foobarge 12y agoPigeons get plucked. The sentence roughly translates into "Neither fools nor spies.".
- maz-dev 12y agoIt means "sucker" or "dupe".
- b4stien 12y agoIn this context it means "a naive person or a dupe willing to accept everything".
- mercurial 12y agoA pigeon is a naive person being conned. It probably refers to the "pigeons" movement of French entrepreneurs opposed to taxes on sales of companies.
- rakoo 12y ago"pigeon" is widely used, and the movement of entrepreneurs used this word specifically because of its already-existing meaning.
- atmosx 12y ago> The proposed law is meant to curb terrorism and create the first legal framework for the government to perform surveillance [...] That's the only real-life achievement of Charlie Hedbo's 2015 attack. This attack allowed the French surveillance state to expand. Oh yes, additionally turned the lives of millions of Muslims throughout Europe a hell overnight.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- rjaco31 12y agoGiven the previous laws during the last years, it's a fair bet that such a law could have been proposed even without the Charlie event. And I don't think it drastically changed anything overnight for the Europeans Muslims, this is a trend going on from a long time.
- Fiahil 12y ago> [...] While the law could only apply to French-based servers, this would unfairly affect OVH against its competitors, as the law allows for governments to install a ‘black box’ that listens to all communication going in and out of the servers, and logs certain pre-ordained types of communication. This seems so unrealistic on so many levels. And, technical issues/risks aside, I don't know any reasons that would be worth keeping your servers on the french territory, if this law is voted. At best, this is hurting businesses. At worst, well, this is just a back door with root access, nothing to worry about.
- bontoJR 12y agoI used OVH services for a long time, very good customer support, best quality/price ratio for Europe and some of their machines are extremely good. It would be a shame for France to lose them. France is known to be very interested in mass surveillance, but what scares me most, it's that the European Union seems completely ignoring the topic, leaving countries to deal with this topic. I am lucky to live in Europe, but outside the EU, so we don't have to deal with these strange regulations, but I am concerned about the impact that this law can have in a short-mid future with all other countries. I really don't want to see UK, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc... follow the France's example, starting to roll-out laws in the name of security and terrorism fight. This must be stopped at a higher level (EU), because also other countries are extremely interested on this topic.
- roel_v 12y agoIt's way outside the mandate of the EU.
- bjelkeman-again 12y agoI wouldn't say that it is completely outside what the EU is doing. The data retention directive was partially about this. The later annulment by the Court of Justice of the European Union for violating fundamental rights, to me, shows that some people in the EU actually cares about his. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive
- bontoJR 12y agoYes, exactly. The EU has the power to do something on this. Actually, when US was facing the Net-Neutrality case, most media questioned about what EU was doing about the same topic and they all pointed out that, according to many different lawyers, this is a field where the EU can interfere. So, I don't have doubts about the fact that EU has the right and the power to do something.
- roel_v 12y ago
- smoyer 12y agoIf you want to join Five Eyes, you've got to have some desirable data to share.
- blueskin_ 12y agoGood for them. About time someone stood up to surveillance in a meaningful way - hit the government where it hurts (in the wallet) is a tactic that should be used more.
- einrealist 12y agoThat doesn't help if there is no good safe heaven. The pressure is increasing for other governments to do the same. And it will get worse when everyone is using secure communication as default.
- bwb 12y agoThat is so scary, I hope OVH can help get this thing stopped. What a stupid law.
- anon4 12y agoMy take on this: I am against surveillance, but also equally against corporations strong-arming government policy changes/non-changes. So I want the changes to not pass, but I don't want them to not pass because of OVH threatening to take their business elsewhere. Tomorrow it could be tobacco manufacturers doing the same thing.
- superbaconman 12y agoCorporations aren't inherently bad, especially when they're checking government abuse. If you've followed the situation in Indiana at all then you know that corporations destroyed the core intent of the rfra law in under a week. Corporations may do dirty things to support their own interests, but so do governments. We shouldn't blindly support either.
- kjs3 12y agoBig Tobacco did do that. And, in fact, their growth markets are now not in the US or EU. The world continues to spin.
- kjs3 12y agoI'm going to send this article to every client I have (surprisingly many) who are demanding "our data must not be stored in the US and subject to your evil NSA...you have to keep it safely in France!".