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There may be a fair amount of criticism of college as it exists today on news.YC, but I think it's also fair to say that the average poster here is not hostile

There may be a fair amount of criticism of college as it exists today on news.YC, but I think it's also fair to say that the average poster here is not hostile to knowledge itself.

timr 19y ago
Regardless of one's position on "knowledge", criticism of college is a form of anti-intellectualism.
- aswanson 19y ago
  I disagree. Critism of college in terms of what it proclaims to be and what it is, I think, is as healthy as self criticism. You could argue that criticising college is a form of hyper-intellectualism, in which case the person criticising makes the observation that it does not live up to it's ideal in many cases.
  - timr 19y ago
    College may or may not "live up to it's ideal" [sic] for some people, but it's still the most efficient way for the vast majority of the population to learn. Regardless of what you may feel about particular schools, courses or professors, if you value knowledge as a virtue, I don't see how you can be hostile toward an institution that exists to advance education. Also, it's not a formal argument, but look at the moderation on the posts: everything that dares to defend higher education is voted down, and everything that bashes it is voted up, regardless of content. The same will happen to this post, despite the fact that I've done nothing more than express my (entirely reasonable) opinion in as rational and thoughtful manner as I know how. That's anti-intellectualism. (Finally, I think I need to add the following disclaimer: I'm not talking about the people who have minor gripes with college, or who look back in retrospect, and make critical judgments about the experience. You're right -- that's "healthy self-criticism". I'm referring to the people who insist that college is a waste of time, and who insinuate that formal education is some kind of trap. You may think that's a cartoonish generalization, but I see it all the time, here and elsewhere.)
    - curi 19y ago
      Good intentions aren't good enough. Schooling has a tradition of imparting some knowledge, but also some irrationalities. Primarily it is coming under attack because it has trouble changing as fast as modern life changes, so the knowledge being imparted is less accurately what people want. But also, one can make very serious criticisms of schools, including colleges, based on the irrationalities they cause in students, and their lack of understanding of how learning works. For example, schools have heavy components of forcing students to do things "for their own good". That's the point of graded assignments and tests -- they help teachers monitor which students are doing as they were told, and help to exert pressure on those that don't.
      - timr 19y ago
        You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Every established institution has trouble being nimble; every established institution can be accused of certain "irrationalities". No offense, but your comment doesn't pass my smell test: you're quick to launch into an attack on grades, tests and authority, but you're slow to acknowledge that those grades, tests and authority are actually helpful to most students. I'm as curious and hard-working as anyone you'll meet, but there are still tons of things that I never would have learned, had I not had exams and grades to prod me along (and for the record, no, I didn't have the smoothest possible educational experience). Bottom line: it doesn't take super-human effort to get through an undergraduate degree in a subject that you enjoy. If one can't summon the basic discipline to put up with the (minor) bullshit associated with a undergraduate education, then they're very likely going to be disappointed by the world outside of the ivory tower. The "real world" isn't exactly known for a lack of bullshit; dealing with it (i.e. having discipline and tenacity) is as marketable a skill as knowing how to code.
        matth 19y ago
        aswanson said it very well. Criticism of college does not equate to anti-intellectualism. The "real world" isn't exactly known for a lack of bullshit; dealing with it (i.e. having discipline and tenacity) is as marketable a skill as knowing how to code. A number of us here are young, ambitious, and have grand visions for "changing the world." Our only reasons for obedience to the university system is to achieve our goals. I call bullshit on the world. I want to change the world, not adapt to it. But cheers to you mate.

There may be a fair amount of criticism of college as it exists today on news.YC, but I think it's also fair to say that the average poster here is not hostile to knowledge itself.

timr 19y ago

Regardless of one's position on "knowledge", criticism of college is a form of anti-intellectualism.

aswanson 19y ago
I disagree. Critism of college in terms of what it proclaims to be and what it is, I think, is as healthy as self criticism. You could argue that criticising college is a form of hyper-intellectualism, in which case the person criticising makes the observation that it does not live up to it's ideal in many cases.
- timr 19y ago
  College may or may not "live up to it's ideal" [sic] for some people, but it's still the most efficient way for the vast majority of the population to learn. Regardless of what you may feel about particular schools, courses or professors, if you value knowledge as a virtue, I don't see how you can be hostile toward an institution that exists to advance education. Also, it's not a formal argument, but look at the moderation on the posts: everything that dares to defend higher education is voted down, and everything that bashes it is voted up, regardless of content. The same will happen to this post, despite the fact that I've done nothing more than express my (entirely reasonable) opinion in as rational and thoughtful manner as I know how. That's anti-intellectualism. (Finally, I think I need to add the following disclaimer: I'm not talking about the people who have minor gripes with college, or who look back in retrospect, and make critical judgments about the experience. You're right -- that's "healthy self-criticism". I'm referring to the people who insist that college is a waste of time, and who insinuate that formal education is some kind of trap. You may think that's a cartoonish generalization, but I see it all the time, here and elsewhere.)
  - curi 19y ago
    Good intentions aren't good enough. Schooling has a tradition of imparting some knowledge, but also some irrationalities. Primarily it is coming under attack because it has trouble changing as fast as modern life changes, so the knowledge being imparted is less accurately what people want. But also, one can make very serious criticisms of schools, including colleges, based on the irrationalities they cause in students, and their lack of understanding of how learning works. For example, schools have heavy components of forcing students to do things "for their own good". That's the point of graded assignments and tests -- they help teachers monitor which students are doing as they were told, and help to exert pressure on those that don't.
    - timr 19y ago
      You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Every established institution has trouble being nimble; every established institution can be accused of certain "irrationalities". No offense, but your comment doesn't pass my smell test: you're quick to launch into an attack on grades, tests and authority, but you're slow to acknowledge that those grades, tests and authority are actually helpful to most students. I'm as curious and hard-working as anyone you'll meet, but there are still tons of things that I never would have learned, had I not had exams and grades to prod me along (and for the record, no, I didn't have the smoothest possible educational experience). Bottom line: it doesn't take super-human effort to get through an undergraduate degree in a subject that you enjoy. If one can't summon the basic discipline to put up with the (minor) bullshit associated with a undergraduate education, then they're very likely going to be disappointed by the world outside of the ivory tower. The "real world" isn't exactly known for a lack of bullshit; dealing with it (i.e. having discipline and tenacity) is as marketable a skill as knowing how to code.
      - matth 19y ago
        aswanson said it very well. Criticism of college does not equate to anti-intellectualism. The "real world" isn't exactly known for a lack of bullshit; dealing with it (i.e. having discipline and tenacity) is as marketable a skill as knowing how to code. A number of us here are young, ambitious, and have grand visions for "changing the world." Our only reasons for obedience to the university system is to achieve our goals. I call bullshit on the world. I want to change the world, not adapt to it. But cheers to you mate.