8 ms·

The Slave Ship That Ran from Kerala to New Orleans

151 points by deskamess 12y ago

sremani 12y ago
This is disturbing but hardly surprising. US is dotted with slave labor camps from meat-packing towns in mid-west to underground garment factories in Los Angeles. This is where the perpetrators use the immigration law as a tool of their exploitation and enforcement, even if the worker involved or should I say, especially when the worker involved is legally here. On the other hand, the complete absence of Indian Consular services or the myriad of Indian cultural organizations in the story is appalling.
- IndianAstronaut 12y ago
  > the complete absence of Indian Consular services or the myriad of Indian cultural organizations in the story is appalling. Amazing considering how many Indians pour millions into temples and such in the US.
  - praneshp 12y ago
    But you cannot improve consular services by pouring millions :( Edit: I see this was downvoted, my point was that it's not the lack of millions, but the attitude of the people that run it that makes consular services suck.
  - mavelikara 12y ago
    Compare the silence here with the fuss made in the Devyani Khorbhade case.
    - shiven 12y ago
      Crows always defend fellow crows. If you have ever seen that in action, you'll totally understand. It's a fact of nature. Same for cops etc.
- deskamess 12y ago
  I am just glad they had someone who would listen to them and act on it (the pastor/priest at their church). Good on the SPLC too for taking them on. Glad the workers took action... if not, when their visa ended in 30 months they would have gone home abused. The Indian Consular Service has never had a reputation for worrying about Indians - they do their best not to ruffle the feathers of their hosts. Your best bet with them is hoping that you reach the odd 'good-guy/gal' at the consulate.
- smutticus 12y ago
  And let's not forget the prison system, which is basically legalized slavery.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
injiiinc 12y ago
man thats horrible... never really hear much about Kerala in the news, its obscure in comparison to the rest of India. Thats where my parents came from so I was happy to see Kerala come up on HN, not happy at all after reading the article. Damn
- kolencherry 12y ago
  The last big piece of Kerala-related news that I remember coming up in America media was about the Annie George case.
  - injiiinc 12y ago
    That Anthony Bourdain no reservations episode was pretty good, not really news, but worth mentioning because I still haven't saved anything over it on my dvr.
gjkood 12y ago
For anyone interested, Kerala is a small state in the southern tip of India. It has a huge historical importance to Western Civilization. You could almost say (I may be exaggerating a little bit) that the America's were discovered by the Europeans in its effort to find a cheaper route to the produce and wealth of the Indies. Kerala is home to the Malabar Hills or what is commonly called the Spice Coast of India. Kerala is where most of the spices such as Pepper, Cardamom, Cinnamon, Cloves etc have been grown for centuries. The ports of Kerala, Calicut (Kozhikode) has been the main gateway of trade all the way back to the Phoenicians. BTW, as HN visitors, you may be interested in the fact that Kerala is now also home to a vibrant Startup culture. Just in the last few months, Menlo Park and Kochi (the city mentioned in the article) has announced that they are going to be sister cities. http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Kochi/kochi-to-sign-sister-city-pact-with-menlo-park/article6870633.ece http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Kochi/kochi-to-sign-sist... http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-02-10/news/59005375_1_kerala-government-student-start-ups-technology-business-incubator http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-02-10/news... Now back to the article being discussed. Some of the factors that made this case possible are the fact that the key players who were being exploited are from Kerala. This may seem strange but let me explain. Kerala, along with West Bengal, can be considered as two of the most intellectually forward states of India. By that I mean, very high literacy (almost 100%) and as a result of that a very keen awareness of when they are exploited and have a fierce willingness to fight all forms of injustice. Communism is a very bad word in America, but it has helped these two states rise up from the feudal system that was prevalent in these states and is still prevalent in most of the poorest states in India. The downsides of a Communist approach (militant labor) is very evident in these States also, as being the worst states to create a labor based business in. The day after you start a business there, you can be guaranteed that labor will start an agitation and bring the business to its knees. The article also mentions the attempted suicide, which is also one of of the disturbing aspects of life in Kerala. The state is very affluent compared to other states, but there is huge social pressure (perceived or otherwise) that forces people to take extreme measures to avoid failure. Whole family suicides are not unheard of if something bad happens. Thanks to the effort of the tragic few who were willing to stand up to the exploiters and risk everything to bring this to court. Their efforts will have an impact far beyond their own. This is one of the reasons that I try and contribute to organizations like the ACLU whenever I can. Henceforth I shall do the same for the SPLC. "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" (Who will guard the guards themselves).
grej 12y ago
The executives and "immigration attorney" in this case showed willful disregard for the law and the individuals they were defrauding, and in my opinion should be subject to criminal charges. Sadly, many of the times things like this happen instead - http://www.law360.com/articles/632144/signal-says-bankruptcy-likely-before-next-trafficking-trial http://www.law360.com/articles/632144/signal-says-bankruptcy.... TLDR, Signal is claiming they don't have the resources to pay, trying to declare bankruptcy, and leave the wronged to walk away with nothing (from them at least). But rest assured, the Signal executives would be fine, financially, in that outcome. Even if they are not charged criminally, piecing the corporate veil in the case of willful and malicious activity is well established, and this is exactly the type of case where that action should be taken.
pdevr 12y ago
The scary part is that if not for the support of the local church/parish and the lawyers, this may well have been yet another case decided in favor of the company.
davidw 12y ago
Here's a random question for the Indians on HN: > Andrews Isaac Padavettiyil Most Indian names I see tend not to mix in bits and pieces that look western. Is something like this just random chance, or are there some groups or cultures where this is a done thing?
- mavelikara 12y ago
  Andrews is from Kerala. Kerala has large number of Christians. Hence some Biblical names, which you might find in some Western cultures also.
- gjkood 12y ago
  As mavelikara, above replied, Kerala has a unique mixture of three religions, Hinduism, Islam and Christianity. The Christians in Kerala are also of different denominations, Catholics (Syrian), Catholics (Latin), Orthodox Christians (Syrian), Orthodox Christians (Malankara), Protestants of all denominations etc. In general, if you are Christian, your name has three parts to it, <First Name> <Middle Name> <Last Name> where the <First Name > is your given name, <Middle Name> is your father's given name and <Last Name> 'may' be a family name. The first and middle names are generally of Biblical origin and will be recognizable by Westerners, the family name will be a local name in Malayalam, which denotes many families of the same family tree so to speak. The names of Malayalis (people of Kerala who speak the native tongue, Malayalam) are a source of confusion for Westerners. I am often asked is that you real name? BTW, the Orthodox Christians of Kerala are 'believed' to be descendants of the first families, converted by St. Thomas (one of the 12 apostles of Christ) who is believed to have settled in Kerala (around 50 AD) in a place called Cranganore, and later is believed to have died/martyred in the neighboring state of Tamil Nadu. They are also called St. Thomas Christians. I leave it to more knowledgeable people to argue about authenticity of these beliefs.
  - carrotleads 12y ago
    This.. My family belongs somewhere in this group. A few Australians have been confused by my last name which is biblical. Occasionally I remind them that India has more Christians than the Australian population and most of us have biblical names mixed in. As an aside, I suspect the case was also driven by the fact that Keralite people are generally more aware of their rights given their high levels of education, knowledge of worker rights and socilaist exposure( the world first elected communist govt was here). Most keralites migrate out to escape the socialist pressure that kills jobs there. Quite ironical that they get out and put up with such cr@p for so long but understandable given the obligations they get into.
jakewalker 12y ago
I have had the great pleasure of helping represent a group of these workers (not the folks who just recently went to trial, but another related case in the Eastern District of Louisiana). One of the most gratifying experiences I've had as an attorney. Really glad to see this story getting attention here. If you are interested in the topic, I'd highly recommend taking a look at some of the SPLC's work on the issues surrounding the H2B program generally: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/publications/close-to-slavery-guestworker-programs-in-the-united-states http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/publications/close-to-...
- gjkood 12y ago
  One of the greatest things I have come to appreciate in the US is that for all its warts, it has great institutions to provide relief against injustice to those who will otherwise be marginalized or helpless. I have been a supporter of the ACLU and now that I am aware of the work that the SPLC does, I am a supporter. I love to see the 'corrective' nature of the general elections and also understand that sometimes the outcome is not the desirable ones. Whenever I see people thumping the Constitution or the Bible to support their twisted heartless positions, I am also in awe of the Founding Fathers of this country, who were able to craft a document, that actually protects the people from their basest instincts and the institutions necessary for affording those protections. Thank you Mr. Walker for being a part of that corrective process.
  - enupten 12y ago
    Indeed, and thankfully, this unlike the Arab countries in Middle east, where it's more-or-less routine. I think it is made worse by the fact that no one gives a shit for the people who don't speak English in India.
- mark212 12y ago
  Good for you. That's excellent. Hope you not only had a great result but get handsomely compensated (materially and otherwise) for your efforts.
  - 12y ago
bruceb 12y ago
Not sure how this actually shows "America's broken visa system" as the author claims. It shows a bad company. They broke the rules. They were punished and now paying 5 men almost 3 million each. (though yes they may weasel out of it)
- zem 12y ago
  from the article: > When working for an abusive employer, H-2B workers have the untenable options of returning to the source country, often with debts that cannot be repaid; leaving the employer but remaining in the US as undocumented workers; or remaining with the abusive employer.
- girvo 12y ago
  The fact they can weasel out of it shows that at least part of the system is broken.
  - bruceb 12y ago
    That seems more a general failure of legal system not the visa system.
    - girvo 12y ago
      It is, yes, but if the checks-and-balances that the visa system relies on and are implemented by the legal system can be sidestepped so easily, then abuses are far more likely, wouldn't you agree?
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  I'd rate this story as one symptom of a broken visa system. There has been a lot of talk how other companies "exploit" holders of certain visa types to a lesser degree than what would be called slavery.
G00d1 12y ago
The problem is this visa should not exist for this type of work. Benefits of ending this visa: 1. Americans workers have jobs and see an increase in pay 2. Less likely to be abused workers 3. Less money given to bureaucracy 4. Less money to lawyers 5. No exploited foreigners 6. Money earned by workers stays in US instead of leaving the US economy and being sent overseas. 7. Churches have more time to help local population. This is work that has to be done in the US. This isn't the same as a visa for a high tech worker creating a company. There is no reason to have this visa for this type of work. It only helps rich business owners at the expense of American workers.
- gambiting 12y ago
  To play devil's advocate - so where would the workers come from to help after disasters like Katrina? If I understand correctly - those people were hired to keep rebuilding everything, since American workers were too busy taking care of their own homes and families, so it was hard to find anyone to do the actual job. If these workers were hired to do one specific job, got paid fair wage for it, and got out, then I wouldn't have a single problem with this visa type.
  - G00d1 12y ago
    Just pay market rates. This company did not want to do that. They want to pay cheaper workers who then send that money out of the country. The company would not make the reported 700k per worker though. Not as good for upper management but better for America.
carrotleads 12y ago
Well I don't know the composition of the management panel of this business. It is quite likely to be homogeneous and dictatorial. This is the cost of a lack of diversity in a team and how stereotypes can come to bite one in the foot. As illustrated by the emails expecting the workers to be happy with their living conditions given they were assumed to be "pooping in ditches". I would wager with better diversity someone is most likely to have challenged some of these views a lot earlier and helped the company from its blunders.
bayesianhorse 12y ago
Stop all restrictions on immigration in the developed world! Not out of kindness, or even basic human decency, but because these restrictions don't work any more. Look at the US: 18 billion dollars are spent each year for enforcing immigration laws. The result? anywhere between 7 and 30 Million illegal immigrants, which are essential to the country's economy, but unable to work, seek the best medical attention or raise their socioeconomic status. In Germany, we have a new kind of "dynamic". Our constitution grants a right to asylum. Because of that right, every application has to be reviewed, even though two thirds of them are rejected. The first problem is that the bureaucracy is completely overwhelmed by the applications. Second problem is that even the rejected Applicants can't be deported, for sheer impracticality of scaling the "deportation" machinery by several magnitudes. Of course, this state of affairs has drawn the attention of even more people smugglers and potential immigrants, raising the burden on our immigration enforcement. It didn't have to be Germany, who was stuck in that cycle first. It could have been France. Italy and Greece aren't stuck because they essentially tell the immigrants to go to Germany or risk being mistreated. In Germany, these asylum seekers are not allowed to work ever. Which means they have to be paid some form of social support. In my belief, paying social support is cheaper than dealing with the consequences of about a million human beings prohibited from earning a living in a legal way. But even cheaper would be to allow them to work, like they actually want to do. But alas, the majority of citizens in the developed countries have fear of immigrants, so they will have to learn what I just described the hard way.
- G00d1 12y ago
  >The result? anywhere between 7 and 30 Million illegal >immigrants, which are essential to the country's economy, >but unable to work, seek the best medical attention or raise >their socioeconomic status. The reason is because the gov't doesn't enforce the law. If they did punish employers for hiring illegal immigrants then there would be a lot less. The employers skirt the law to increase the bottom line while pushing the cost off on the taxpayer. Cut of the work then a lot less will come. Wages will rise for the lowest earning Americans. You think anyone in the world should be able to come to Germany? Get ready for a couple million people in the first 6 months. People who don't speak German and may not share your values.
1971genocide 12y ago
This is why I sometimes wished that rather than have the largest democracy in the world <applause> India were ruled by something similar to the Chinese technocrats who challenged the america-euro global world order. So much of the brightest Indians is the reason why america is a tech giant. India could have similar wealth like the Chinese if it wasn't for this brain-drain. And to make it even worse the american system didn't distribute that generated wealth fairly among its citizen but made a powerful class even more powerful and made average americans and indians poorer.
- srean 12y ago
  It is not enough just to produce talent, it is also necessary to have structure in place to utilize/absorb the talent. India was far from that position before, it is somewhat better but still far from ideal. To turn the point on its head, if you have the infrastructure and environment for talent to be used and valued, they would come, and they did, to USA. However given the strong anti immigrant rhetoric that is becoming popular in USA I am interested to see how this is going to play out.
  - 1971genocide 12y ago
    China also didn't have the infrastructure. In fact India has a lot more infrastructure than china did due to 200 years of British Rule. The difference is China forced their brightest citizen to stay and build whatever infrastructure was needed and also didn't so easily give in to pressure to open up to trade that didn't benefit them in the guise of "globalization".
    - G00d1 12y ago
      Not everyone in China is Han Chinese but it is not as diverse as India. Should the Indian Gov't suppress all the different religions in India? Crush ethnic tensions with brute force?
  - G00d1 12y ago
    What "anti immigrant rhetoric". How is not wanting to people come illegally and follow the law "anti immigrant".
kapauldo 12y ago
This is a mischaracterization. This is not a failure of the H1 visa system. This is someone attempting to capitalize on the horrible and seemingly permanent culture of slavery in India http://www.newsweek.com/india-tops-global-slavery-index-over-14-million-people-enslaved-284950 http://www.newsweek.com/india-tops-global-slavery-index-over...

151 points by deskamess 12y ago

This is disturbing but hardly surprising. US is dotted with slave labor camps from meat-packing towns in mid-west to underground garment factories in Los Angeles. This is where the perpetrators use the immigration law as a tool of their exploitation and enforcement, even if the worker involved or should I say, especially when the worker involved is legally here. On the other hand, the complete absence of Indian Consular services or the myriad of Indian cultural organizations in the story is appalling.

IndianAstronaut 12y ago
> the complete absence of Indian Consular services or the myriad of Indian cultural organizations in the story is appalling. Amazing considering how many Indians pour millions into temples and such in the US.
- praneshp 12y ago
  But you cannot improve consular services by pouring millions :( Edit: I see this was downvoted, my point was that it's not the lack of millions, but the attitude of the people that run it that makes consular services suck.
- mavelikara 12y ago
  Compare the silence here with the fuss made in the Devyani Khorbhade case.
  - shiven 12y ago
    Crows always defend fellow crows. If you have ever seen that in action, you'll totally understand. It's a fact of nature. Same for cops etc.
deskamess 12y ago
I am just glad they had someone who would listen to them and act on it (the pastor/priest at their church). Good on the SPLC too for taking them on. Glad the workers took action... if not, when their visa ended in 30 months they would have gone home abused. The Indian Consular Service has never had a reputation for worrying about Indians - they do their best not to ruffle the feathers of their hosts. Your best bet with them is hoping that you reach the odd 'good-guy/gal' at the consulate.
smutticus 12y ago
And let's not forget the prison system, which is basically legalized slavery.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

injiiinc 12y ago

man thats horrible... never really hear much about Kerala in the news, its obscure in comparison to the rest of India. Thats where my parents came from so I was happy to see Kerala come up on HN, not happy at all after reading the article. Damn

kolencherry 12y ago
The last big piece of Kerala-related news that I remember coming up in America media was about the Annie George case.
- injiiinc 12y ago
  That Anthony Bourdain no reservations episode was pretty good, not really news, but worth mentioning because I still haven't saved anything over it on my dvr.

gjkood 12y ago

For anyone interested, Kerala is a small state in the southern tip of India. It has a huge historical importance to Western Civilization. You could almost say (I may be exaggerating a little bit) that the America's were discovered by the Europeans in its effort to find a cheaper route to the produce and wealth of the Indies. Kerala is home to the Malabar Hills or what is commonly called the Spice Coast of India. Kerala is where most of the spices such as Pepper, Cardamom, Cinnamon, Cloves etc have been grown for centuries. The ports of Kerala, Calicut (Kozhikode) has been the main gateway of trade all the way back to the Phoenicians. BTW, as HN visitors, you may be interested in the fact that Kerala is now also home to a vibrant Startup culture. Just in the last few months, Menlo Park and Kochi (the city mentioned in the article) has announced that they are going to be sister cities. http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Kochi/kochi-to-sign-sister-city-pact-with-menlo-park/article6870633.ece http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Kochi/kochi-to-sign-sist... http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-02-10/news/59005375_1_kerala-government-student-start-ups-technology-business-incubator http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-02-10/news... Now back to the article being discussed. Some of the factors that made this case possible are the fact that the key players who were being exploited are from Kerala. This may seem strange but let me explain. Kerala, along with West Bengal, can be considered as two of the most intellectually forward states of India. By that I mean, very high literacy (almost 100%) and as a result of that a very keen awareness of when they are exploited and have a fierce willingness to fight all forms of injustice. Communism is a very bad word in America, but it has helped these two states rise up from the feudal system that was prevalent in these states and is still prevalent in most of the poorest states in India. The downsides of a Communist approach (militant labor) is very evident in these States also, as being the worst states to create a labor based business in. The day after you start a business there, you can be guaranteed that labor will start an agitation and bring the business to its knees. The article also mentions the attempted suicide, which is also one of of the disturbing aspects of life in Kerala. The state is very affluent compared to other states, but there is huge social pressure (perceived or otherwise) that forces people to take extreme measures to avoid failure. Whole family suicides are not unheard of if something bad happens. Thanks to the effort of the tragic few who were willing to stand up to the exploiters and risk everything to bring this to court. Their efforts will have an impact far beyond their own. This is one of the reasons that I try and contribute to organizations like the ACLU whenever I can. Henceforth I shall do the same for the SPLC. "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" (Who will guard the guards themselves).

grej 12y ago

The executives and "immigration attorney" in this case showed willful disregard for the law and the individuals they were defrauding, and in my opinion should be subject to criminal charges. Sadly, many of the times things like this happen instead - http://www.law360.com/articles/632144/signal-says-bankruptcy-likely-before-next-trafficking-trial http://www.law360.com/articles/632144/signal-says-bankruptcy.... TLDR, Signal is claiming they don't have the resources to pay, trying to declare bankruptcy, and leave the wronged to walk away with nothing (from them at least). But rest assured, the Signal executives would be fine, financially, in that outcome. Even if they are not charged criminally, piecing the corporate veil in the case of willful and malicious activity is well established, and this is exactly the type of case where that action should be taken.

pdevr 12y ago

The scary part is that if not for the support of the local church/parish and the lawyers, this may well have been yet another case decided in favor of the company.

davidw 12y ago

Here's a random question for the Indians on HN: > Andrews Isaac Padavettiyil Most Indian names I see tend not to mix in bits and pieces that look western. Is something like this just random chance, or are there some groups or cultures where this is a done thing?

mavelikara 12y ago
Andrews is from Kerala. Kerala has large number of Christians. Hence some Biblical names, which you might find in some Western cultures also.
gjkood 12y ago
As mavelikara, above replied, Kerala has a unique mixture of three religions, Hinduism, Islam and Christianity. The Christians in Kerala are also of different denominations, Catholics (Syrian), Catholics (Latin), Orthodox Christians (Syrian), Orthodox Christians (Malankara), Protestants of all denominations etc. In general, if you are Christian, your name has three parts to it, <First Name> <Middle Name> <Last Name> where the <First Name > is your given name, <Middle Name> is your father's given name and <Last Name> 'may' be a family name. The first and middle names are generally of Biblical origin and will be recognizable by Westerners, the family name will be a local name in Malayalam, which denotes many families of the same family tree so to speak. The names of Malayalis (people of Kerala who speak the native tongue, Malayalam) are a source of confusion for Westerners. I am often asked is that you real name? BTW, the Orthodox Christians of Kerala are 'believed' to be descendants of the first families, converted by St. Thomas (one of the 12 apostles of Christ) who is believed to have settled in Kerala (around 50 AD) in a place called Cranganore, and later is believed to have died/martyred in the neighboring state of Tamil Nadu. They are also called St. Thomas Christians. I leave it to more knowledgeable people to argue about authenticity of these beliefs.
- carrotleads 12y ago
  This.. My family belongs somewhere in this group. A few Australians have been confused by my last name which is biblical. Occasionally I remind them that India has more Christians than the Australian population and most of us have biblical names mixed in. As an aside, I suspect the case was also driven by the fact that Keralite people are generally more aware of their rights given their high levels of education, knowledge of worker rights and socilaist exposure( the world first elected communist govt was here). Most keralites migrate out to escape the socialist pressure that kills jobs there. Quite ironical that they get out and put up with such cr@p for so long but understandable given the obligations they get into.

jakewalker 12y ago

I have had the great pleasure of helping represent a group of these workers (not the folks who just recently went to trial, but another related case in the Eastern District of Louisiana). One of the most gratifying experiences I've had as an attorney. Really glad to see this story getting attention here. If you are interested in the topic, I'd highly recommend taking a look at some of the SPLC's work on the issues surrounding the H2B program generally: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/publications/close-to-slavery-guestworker-programs-in-the-united-states http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/publications/close-to-...

gjkood 12y ago
One of the greatest things I have come to appreciate in the US is that for all its warts, it has great institutions to provide relief against injustice to those who will otherwise be marginalized or helpless. I have been a supporter of the ACLU and now that I am aware of the work that the SPLC does, I am a supporter. I love to see the 'corrective' nature of the general elections and also understand that sometimes the outcome is not the desirable ones. Whenever I see people thumping the Constitution or the Bible to support their twisted heartless positions, I am also in awe of the Founding Fathers of this country, who were able to craft a document, that actually protects the people from their basest instincts and the institutions necessary for affording those protections. Thank you Mr. Walker for being a part of that corrective process.
- enupten 12y ago
  Indeed, and thankfully, this unlike the Arab countries in Middle east, where it's more-or-less routine. I think it is made worse by the fact that no one gives a shit for the people who don't speak English in India.
mark212 12y ago
Good for you. That's excellent. Hope you not only had a great result but get handsomely compensated (materially and otherwise) for your efforts.
- 12y ago

bruceb 12y ago

Not sure how this actually shows "America's broken visa system" as the author claims. It shows a bad company. They broke the rules. They were punished and now paying 5 men almost 3 million each. (though yes they may weasel out of it)

zem 12y ago
from the article: > When working for an abusive employer, H-2B workers have the untenable options of returning to the source country, often with debts that cannot be repaid; leaving the employer but remaining in the US as undocumented workers; or remaining with the abusive employer.
girvo 12y ago
The fact they can weasel out of it shows that at least part of the system is broken.
- bruceb 12y ago
  That seems more a general failure of legal system not the visa system.
  - girvo 12y ago
    It is, yes, but if the checks-and-balances that the visa system relies on and are implemented by the legal system can be sidestepped so easily, then abuses are far more likely, wouldn't you agree?
bayesianhorse 12y ago
I'd rate this story as one symptom of a broken visa system. There has been a lot of talk how other companies "exploit" holders of certain visa types to a lesser degree than what would be called slavery.

G00d1 12y ago

The problem is this visa should not exist for this type of work. Benefits of ending this visa: 1. Americans workers have jobs and see an increase in pay 2. Less likely to be abused workers 3. Less money given to bureaucracy 4. Less money to lawyers 5. No exploited foreigners 6. Money earned by workers stays in US instead of leaving the US economy and being sent overseas. 7. Churches have more time to help local population. This is work that has to be done in the US. This isn't the same as a visa for a high tech worker creating a company. There is no reason to have this visa for this type of work. It only helps rich business owners at the expense of American workers.

gambiting 12y ago
To play devil's advocate - so where would the workers come from to help after disasters like Katrina? If I understand correctly - those people were hired to keep rebuilding everything, since American workers were too busy taking care of their own homes and families, so it was hard to find anyone to do the actual job. If these workers were hired to do one specific job, got paid fair wage for it, and got out, then I wouldn't have a single problem with this visa type.
- G00d1 12y ago
  Just pay market rates. This company did not want to do that. They want to pay cheaper workers who then send that money out of the country. The company would not make the reported 700k per worker though. Not as good for upper management but better for America.

carrotleads 12y ago

Well I don't know the composition of the management panel of this business. It is quite likely to be homogeneous and dictatorial. This is the cost of a lack of diversity in a team and how stereotypes can come to bite one in the foot. As illustrated by the emails expecting the workers to be happy with their living conditions given they were assumed to be "pooping in ditches". I would wager with better diversity someone is most likely to have challenged some of these views a lot earlier and helped the company from its blunders.

bayesianhorse 12y ago

Stop all restrictions on immigration in the developed world! Not out of kindness, or even basic human decency, but because these restrictions don't work any more. Look at the US: 18 billion dollars are spent each year for enforcing immigration laws. The result? anywhere between 7 and 30 Million illegal immigrants, which are essential to the country's economy, but unable to work, seek the best medical attention or raise their socioeconomic status. In Germany, we have a new kind of "dynamic". Our constitution grants a right to asylum. Because of that right, every application has to be reviewed, even though two thirds of them are rejected. The first problem is that the bureaucracy is completely overwhelmed by the applications. Second problem is that even the rejected Applicants can't be deported, for sheer impracticality of scaling the "deportation" machinery by several magnitudes. Of course, this state of affairs has drawn the attention of even more people smugglers and potential immigrants, raising the burden on our immigration enforcement. It didn't have to be Germany, who was stuck in that cycle first. It could have been France. Italy and Greece aren't stuck because they essentially tell the immigrants to go to Germany or risk being mistreated. In Germany, these asylum seekers are not allowed to work ever. Which means they have to be paid some form of social support. In my belief, paying social support is cheaper than dealing with the consequences of about a million human beings prohibited from earning a living in a legal way. But even cheaper would be to allow them to work, like they actually want to do. But alas, the majority of citizens in the developed countries have fear of immigrants, so they will have to learn what I just described the hard way.

G00d1 12y ago
>The result? anywhere between 7 and 30 Million illegal >immigrants, which are essential to the country's economy, >but unable to work, seek the best medical attention or raise >their socioeconomic status. The reason is because the gov't doesn't enforce the law. If they did punish employers for hiring illegal immigrants then there would be a lot less. The employers skirt the law to increase the bottom line while pushing the cost off on the taxpayer. Cut of the work then a lot less will come. Wages will rise for the lowest earning Americans. You think anyone in the world should be able to come to Germany? Get ready for a couple million people in the first 6 months. People who don't speak German and may not share your values.

1971genocide 12y ago

This is why I sometimes wished that rather than have the largest democracy in the world <applause> India were ruled by something similar to the Chinese technocrats who challenged the america-euro global world order. So much of the brightest Indians is the reason why america is a tech giant. India could have similar wealth like the Chinese if it wasn't for this brain-drain. And to make it even worse the american system didn't distribute that generated wealth fairly among its citizen but made a powerful class even more powerful and made average americans and indians poorer.

srean 12y ago
It is not enough just to produce talent, it is also necessary to have structure in place to utilize/absorb the talent. India was far from that position before, it is somewhat better but still far from ideal. To turn the point on its head, if you have the infrastructure and environment for talent to be used and valued, they would come, and they did, to USA. However given the strong anti immigrant rhetoric that is becoming popular in USA I am interested to see how this is going to play out.
- 1971genocide 12y ago
  China also didn't have the infrastructure. In fact India has a lot more infrastructure than china did due to 200 years of British Rule. The difference is China forced their brightest citizen to stay and build whatever infrastructure was needed and also didn't so easily give in to pressure to open up to trade that didn't benefit them in the guise of "globalization".
  - G00d1 12y ago
    Not everyone in China is Han Chinese but it is not as diverse as India. Should the Indian Gov't suppress all the different religions in India? Crush ethnic tensions with brute force?
- G00d1 12y ago
  What "anti immigrant rhetoric". How is not wanting to people come illegally and follow the law "anti immigrant".

kapauldo 12y ago

This is a mischaracterization. This is not a failure of the H1 visa system. This is someone attempting to capitalize on the horrible and seemingly permanent culture of slavery in India http://www.newsweek.com/india-tops-global-slavery-index-over-14-million-people-enslaved-284950 http://www.newsweek.com/india-tops-global-slavery-index-over...