7 ms·

>Windows is out of the question after seeing what a factory OEM image comes with nowadays. Fair play. Research the manufacturer's policy if you're buying pre-

>Windows is out of the question after seeing what a factory OEM image comes with nowadays. Fair play. Research the manufacturer's policy if you're buying pre-built. If you build your own desktops, this is not an issue. >I'm not giving them money and spending 2 days formatting/reinstalling/seeking out drivers on slow Taiwanese servers just to make a half-usable computer. When's the last time you actually installed drivers on a fresh Windows install? I will concede this used to be the case, but nowadays the whole process is much more streamlined. Microsoft has made progress on supporting a lot of hardware drivers via Windows Update. Intel also has a great driver update tool that will scan your system and make recommendations. >And then, after all that, spend another 2 days installing various adware infested shitware to get a fricking PDF viewer. 2 days is rather exaggerated. Most browsers display PDF. If you absolutely need to read a PDF, Foxit Reader is free, as in beer. Yes, you'll have to uncheck some boxes to avoid their bundled software. Big deal. >And don't get me started on getting a half-decent dev environment going. Ugh. Yeah, windows isn't great for a lot of developers' needs. You really could have just left your argument at this rather than spouting off the rest of that FUD. I use Linux, OS X, and Windows all on a regular basis. They have their strengths and weaknesses, like any other products.

PopsiclePete 12y ago
>Fair play. Research the manufacturer's policy if you're buying pre-built. If you build your own desktops, this is not an issue. I can build my own desktop, but I can't build my own laptop. I use laptops exclusively for work. >When's the last time you actually installed drivers on a fresh Windows install? Less than year ago on my girlfriend's VAIO laptop, actually. Windows 7. >Microsoft has made progress on supporting a lot of hardware drivers via Windows Update. Intel also has a great driver update tool that will scan your system and make recommendations. Yes, it mostly works, and I'm aware of it, which is why I boldly told my girlfriend I'd take me "an hour or so" to "fix" her laptop issues. Famous last words. And I wasn't exaggerating about "slow Taiwanese servers" - I'm talking less than 100kb/sec transfer speeds. Welcome to 1996. >2 days is rather exaggerated. Most browsers display PDF. If you absolutely need to read a PDF, Foxit Reader is free, as in beer. Yes, you'll have to uncheck some boxes to avoid their bundled software. Big deal. It is a big deal, to me. I don't like being treated like an idiot, being on the look-out for hidden toolbars and spyware every time I double-click "setup.exe". Am I capable of doing it? Yes. Do I want to bother, for a fricking PDF viewer or a java runtime? Absolutely no way, never again. BTW, 19/20 people seem to just leave the default check-boxes checked, since they don't understand what they're being asked and just want a fricking PDF viewer. And Foxit IMO is a PITA. Comes with its own auto-updater too. I have never seen a PDF viewer needing so many automatic updates, so often; big ones, too. Why can OS X come with a nice, bundled, PDF viewer, and the capability to export to PDF from everywhere, and in Windows-land, I'm forced to install either spyware or shit-ware? Why? Why is Windows still stuck in 1997 in this regard? >Yeah, windows isn't great for a lot of developers' needs. You really could have just left your argument at this rather than spouting off the rest of that FUD. FUD? I deal with Windows issues from relatives on a weekly basis. What FUD? Am I imagining all of these issues? Spyware and adware infested boxes that come to a crawl as soon as the poor sap has more than 2 Chrome windows open because the OEM decided that 2 GB is enough for Windows 7 and also installed their own "Media Center Experience" which starts up on boot and is written in .NET WPF, eating whatever RAM there's left? That one wasn't on the VAIO, it was on her previous HP laptop, but point still stands. Yeah, maybe for a power user who built their own computer from scratch and did a clean install and carefully vetted every package as it was installed, sure, yeah nice experience. I have a Windows gaming box that is super lean and mean and it took a lot of effort to get it to this state. But I still find myself scratching my head in disbelief every time a windows user tells me they need a new computer cause their existing one "just got real slow lately" even though they never touched the OS. And I know why it's slow too, I know before I even open it, dreading what I'm going to see in the notification area. P.S. She's a very happy OS X user now, FWIW. One HP and one VAIO laptop later and another Microsoft ex-customer never coming back.
- teddyh 12y ago
  For sensible PDF readers, see http://pdfreaders.org/ http://pdfreaders.org/
- hug 12y ago
  None of your complaints are about Windows. They're all, almost universally, about OEM and third-party shovelware. You want to avoid OEMs trashing your computer? Don't pretend this is about a lack of choice, or about Microsoft being stuck in the past. It's about you being ignorant of your options, or ignorant of the ecosystem. Buy a Signature Series machine from Microsoft.[1] No crapware, no bundled "features" or "trials". You can also go buy rebranded-Clevo-hardware built by one of their partnered system builders. These machines also aren't full of crapware, if you pick a decent system builder. Vizio, by the way, also refuse to fill their laptops with crapware. On the other hand, anyone who owns a music streaming service is going to bundle their music streaming service. As for PDFs, Windows 8 and up come with a PDF viewer since, y'know, two and a half years ago when it was released. Did you miss that? Granted the default PDF viewer is a Modern App, but it works, and it works reasonably well. I use it regularly to dock a PDF on half of my monitor while I work on something else on the other side. Office, by the way, will read and write PDFs just fine, if you're after a more solid office-like product to do it. In case you're about to complain that Office is too pricey, LibreOffice will do the same. If an office-suite is not your speed, Sumatra PDF exists, and is free, open, has no bundling, and is available in a portable flavour. Again, this is not Microsoft's fault. It is yours. No one is stuck in 1997 but you. You know what it requires to not be stuck in 1997? Any sort of intellectual curiosity at all. > FUD? I deal with Windows issues from relatives on a weekly basis. What FUD? Am I imagining all of these issues? Spyware and adware infested boxes See, you're doing it again. You're not dealing with "Windows issues", you're dealing with issues on Windows boxes, caused by non-Windows problems. These problems involve things like "my computer illiterate family really believed there was a Nigerian prince sending them email," they're not problems that Microsoft has introduced, and they're not problems that Microsoft CAN solve. Stupid people do stupid things, and one of those things is double-click PORNVIAGRA.EXE. This annoys me so much because you are essentially arguing that problems caused by refusing to read are problems caused by operating systems, and this really isn't the case. This isn't something Apple has done a better job with either, it's just that the marketshare for Apple wasn't high enough for the malware vendors to bother with them. Notice how reports of Apple-specific shitware have increased in the past couple years with their marketshare? This should probably point out to you that it's not something that's solved by changing OS, it's solved by teaching your friends and family to be more tech-literate. You are arguing that the problem of pedestrians being hit by cars when they cross without looking will be solved if we just pad bumper of the cars enough. You want to try to find a technical solution to a human issue, which computers really aren't up to solving yet. Don't get met wrong, there's stopgaps. There's services like http://unchecky.com/ http://unchecky.com/ which just uncheck all the checkboxes for you. Now you have checkboxes unchecked that you really need checked, and stuff doesn't get installed properly. There's still some reading required. The point here, though, is that you're not an idiot. Your family aren't idiots. You're just all too lazy for your own good. (As an aside, there's also valuable lesson in your post that Vaios are among the worst OEMs around. Don't buy Vaio.) [1] http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/categoryID.69916600 http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/category...
Alleluja 12y ago
My Dad got himself a brand new laptop (i7, 8gb ram, ssd, etc). And a brand new printer HP OfficeJet (big black shiny machine with all the bells and whistles). He couldn't print his stuff for work. He called me up. After over an hour I gave up. Windows 8 couldn't figure out which drivers to use. The CDs attached with printer didn't help too. I mean the installation went smoothly, but then nothing was printed. Check your cables, etc. messages like we are still in 1996. I don't have time for this BS. Drove back home, got my macbook pro. Came back to my Dad's home and did THIS: 1. connect printer to the mac 2. driver installs after clicking 'OK' or 'install', dont even remember at this point 3. print that's it! Welcome back to 2015!
- atomicfiredoll 12y ago
  And on our network the Windows PC prints fine, but the Macs have no idea what's going on. TL;DR: Printers still suck.
  - 72deluxe 12y ago
    If only there was some sort of Printer Command Language that would negate the need for these issues.....? Or perhaps some form of scripting language that you could post, perhaps they could even call it PostScript?
renaudg 12y ago
>If you absolutely need to read a PDF, Foxit Reader is free, as in beer. You're actually proving his point : on Windows something as basic as reading PDFs (yes you "absolutely" need that in 2015) requires specific knowledge of obscure names like "Foxit Reader". I'm not even going into annotating that PDF or adding your signature to it then. The same goes for : an office suite, a file manager with decent previewing+smart search capabilities, something that quickly resizes/converts your pictures, great photo editing/cataloging software, video editing software, music editing software, e-mail client, a comprehensive development environment (1) All of the above, which covers almost all areas of what people actually use computers for, comes as standard on OS X (1) Pages/Numbers/Keynote, Finder+Spotlight, Preview (also your answer for annotating PDFs btw), iPhoto/Photos, iMovie, Garageband, Mail, Unix CLI/XCode > Yes, you'll have to uncheck some boxes to avoid their bundled software. Big deal. Hate to say it in troll-ish way but : everyone but lifelong Windows users has higher standards than this.
- laumars 12y ago
  In fairness to Windows (and I can't believe I'm defending it because I happen to hate the platform!), bundling software is exactly what got Microsoft into trouble in previous years (Internet Explorer, MSN Messenger, Windows Defender, etc). Hopefully the package manager in Windows 10 will offer up a happy medium between expected software being easily available, and 3rd parties not being pushed out of the market place.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > In fairness to Windows (and I can't believe I'm defending it because I happen to hate the platform!), bundling software is exactly what got Microsoft into trouble in previous years (Internet Explorer, MSN Messenger, Windows Defender, etc). Except that bundling itself is not what got Microsoft in trouble. Having a monopoly, and then taking a coordinated series of actions relating to conditions of sale, bundling, and other steps to extend that monopoly into other markets and to eliminate threats to the monopoly -- with evidence, including fairly explicit documentary evidence from senior decision-makers at Microsoft -- that that was the intent of the action is what got Microsoft in trouble. They got in trouble under anti-monopoly laws, not anti-bundling laws.
seanp2k2 12y ago
http://www.nliteos.com http://www.nliteos.com helps massively when installing all the Java / Flash / browsers / anti-malware / other stuff you need on Windows. The Taiwanese driver thing is still real; windows may ship drivers and have some via windows update, but they probably won't be the newest (or even newest certified). Don't forget about the 4 hours, 10 reboots, 3 blue screens, and reinstalling your video card drivers twice of windows updates!
e12e 12y ago
> When's the last time you actually installed drivers on a fresh Windows install? On this very box, I bought a 8.1 pro license, and had to install drivers for my GPU (ATI r9), along with various other tidbits, which I've now forgotten. Oh, yeah, my usb sound card. Granted, I needed to install the closed source drivers on the Linux side, but it was easier (enable non-free, aptitude install ...) -- and the soundcard worked out of the box. At least the network card worked this time around on Windows (at least as far as I remember). So the only real hassle was that I needed a windows install from which to build the usb install stick. Thankfully I still dual-boot my laptop, so I could make the install image there.
JoachimS 12y ago
"When's the last time you actually installed drivers on a fresh Windows install?" This christmas. Building a new desktop for the first time in years. Bought high quality everything - Asus MB, Intel Quad core CPU, corsair memories etc. a fun and smooth experience. I also bought Win 8.1 Pro, setup the machine for dual boot and then proceeded to install Win followed by Xubuntu. Gave me a good perspective on the state of the OSes. Win install took much longer time, did not detect the AMD Radeon R9 card nor the Intel Eth interface on th MB. Or a lot of the peripherals. Using the supplied driver CD from Asus solved most of these, but not the GPU. To this day Win complains about some peripheral that it can't detect. Xubuntu install was faster, smooth and did automatically detect all peripherals including Eth and GPU. And SW install using SW Center and Synaptic just works. The Just Works used to be the perceived advantage of Win, and that Linux meant issues with drivers and fiddling with downloads from weird sites and manual builds. It seems the world has flipped, mainly due to Linux progressing while Win really hasn't. Apart from the Metro/Modern interface that is there as well as the classic and you (read: I) end up being transferred between them.

PopsiclePete 12y ago

>Fair play. Research the manufacturer's policy if you're buying pre-built. If you build your own desktops, this is not an issue. I can build my own desktop, but I can't build my own laptop. I use laptops exclusively for work. >When's the last time you actually installed drivers on a fresh Windows install? Less than year ago on my girlfriend's VAIO laptop, actually. Windows 7. >Microsoft has made progress on supporting a lot of hardware drivers via Windows Update. Intel also has a great driver update tool that will scan your system and make recommendations. Yes, it mostly works, and I'm aware of it, which is why I boldly told my girlfriend I'd take me "an hour or so" to "fix" her laptop issues. Famous last words. And I wasn't exaggerating about "slow Taiwanese servers" - I'm talking less than 100kb/sec transfer speeds. Welcome to 1996. >2 days is rather exaggerated. Most browsers display PDF. If you absolutely need to read a PDF, Foxit Reader is free, as in beer. Yes, you'll have to uncheck some boxes to avoid their bundled software. Big deal. It is a big deal, to me. I don't like being treated like an idiot, being on the look-out for hidden toolbars and spyware every time I double-click "setup.exe". Am I capable of doing it? Yes. Do I want to bother, for a fricking PDF viewer or a java runtime? Absolutely no way, never again. BTW, 19/20 people seem to just leave the default check-boxes checked, since they don't understand what they're being asked and just want a fricking PDF viewer. And Foxit IMO is a PITA. Comes with its own auto-updater too. I have never seen a PDF viewer needing so many automatic updates, so often; big ones, too. Why can OS X come with a nice, bundled, PDF viewer, and the capability to export to PDF from everywhere, and in Windows-land, I'm forced to install either spyware or shit-ware? Why? Why is Windows still stuck in 1997 in this regard? >Yeah, windows isn't great for a lot of developers' needs. You really could have just left your argument at this rather than spouting off the rest of that FUD. FUD? I deal with Windows issues from relatives on a weekly basis. What FUD? Am I imagining all of these issues? Spyware and adware infested boxes that come to a crawl as soon as the poor sap has more than 2 Chrome windows open because the OEM decided that 2 GB is enough for Windows 7 and also installed their own "Media Center Experience" which starts up on boot and is written in .NET WPF, eating whatever RAM there's left? That one wasn't on the VAIO, it was on her previous HP laptop, but point still stands. Yeah, maybe for a power user who built their own computer from scratch and did a clean install and carefully vetted every package as it was installed, sure, yeah nice experience. I have a Windows gaming box that is super lean and mean and it took a lot of effort to get it to this state. But I still find myself scratching my head in disbelief every time a windows user tells me they need a new computer cause their existing one "just got real slow lately" even though they never touched the OS. And I know why it's slow too, I know before I even open it, dreading what I'm going to see in the notification area. P.S. She's a very happy OS X user now, FWIW. One HP and one VAIO laptop later and another Microsoft ex-customer never coming back.

teddyh 12y ago
For sensible PDF readers, see http://pdfreaders.org/ http://pdfreaders.org/
hug 12y ago
None of your complaints are about Windows. They're all, almost universally, about OEM and third-party shovelware. You want to avoid OEMs trashing your computer? Don't pretend this is about a lack of choice, or about Microsoft being stuck in the past. It's about you being ignorant of your options, or ignorant of the ecosystem. Buy a Signature Series machine from Microsoft.[1] No crapware, no bundled "features" or "trials". You can also go buy rebranded-Clevo-hardware built by one of their partnered system builders. These machines also aren't full of crapware, if you pick a decent system builder. Vizio, by the way, also refuse to fill their laptops with crapware. On the other hand, anyone who owns a music streaming service is going to bundle their music streaming service. As for PDFs, Windows 8 and up come with a PDF viewer since, y'know, two and a half years ago when it was released. Did you miss that? Granted the default PDF viewer is a Modern App, but it works, and it works reasonably well. I use it regularly to dock a PDF on half of my monitor while I work on something else on the other side. Office, by the way, will read and write PDFs just fine, if you're after a more solid office-like product to do it. In case you're about to complain that Office is too pricey, LibreOffice will do the same. If an office-suite is not your speed, Sumatra PDF exists, and is free, open, has no bundling, and is available in a portable flavour. Again, this is not Microsoft's fault. It is yours. No one is stuck in 1997 but you. You know what it requires to not be stuck in 1997? Any sort of intellectual curiosity at all. > FUD? I deal with Windows issues from relatives on a weekly basis. What FUD? Am I imagining all of these issues? Spyware and adware infested boxes See, you're doing it again. You're not dealing with "Windows issues", you're dealing with issues on Windows boxes, caused by non-Windows problems. These problems involve things like "my computer illiterate family really believed there was a Nigerian prince sending them email," they're not problems that Microsoft has introduced, and they're not problems that Microsoft CAN solve. Stupid people do stupid things, and one of those things is double-click PORNVIAGRA.EXE. This annoys me so much because you are essentially arguing that problems caused by refusing to read are problems caused by operating systems, and this really isn't the case. This isn't something Apple has done a better job with either, it's just that the marketshare for Apple wasn't high enough for the malware vendors to bother with them. Notice how reports of Apple-specific shitware have increased in the past couple years with their marketshare? This should probably point out to you that it's not something that's solved by changing OS, it's solved by teaching your friends and family to be more tech-literate. You are arguing that the problem of pedestrians being hit by cars when they cross without looking will be solved if we just pad bumper of the cars enough. You want to try to find a technical solution to a human issue, which computers really aren't up to solving yet. Don't get met wrong, there's stopgaps. There's services like http://unchecky.com/ http://unchecky.com/ which just uncheck all the checkboxes for you. Now you have checkboxes unchecked that you really need checked, and stuff doesn't get installed properly. There's still some reading required. The point here, though, is that you're not an idiot. Your family aren't idiots. You're just all too lazy for your own good. (As an aside, there's also valuable lesson in your post that Vaios are among the worst OEMs around. Don't buy Vaio.) [1] http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/categoryID.69916600 http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/category...

Alleluja 12y ago

My Dad got himself a brand new laptop (i7, 8gb ram, ssd, etc). And a brand new printer HP OfficeJet (big black shiny machine with all the bells and whistles). He couldn't print his stuff for work. He called me up. After over an hour I gave up. Windows 8 couldn't figure out which drivers to use. The CDs attached with printer didn't help too. I mean the installation went smoothly, but then nothing was printed. Check your cables, etc. messages like we are still in 1996. I don't have time for this BS. Drove back home, got my macbook pro. Came back to my Dad's home and did THIS: 1. connect printer to the mac 2. driver installs after clicking 'OK' or 'install', dont even remember at this point 3. print that's it! Welcome back to 2015!

atomicfiredoll 12y ago
And on our network the Windows PC prints fine, but the Macs have no idea what's going on. TL;DR: Printers still suck.
- 72deluxe 12y ago
  If only there was some sort of Printer Command Language that would negate the need for these issues.....? Or perhaps some form of scripting language that you could post, perhaps they could even call it PostScript?

renaudg 12y ago

>If you absolutely need to read a PDF, Foxit Reader is free, as in beer. You're actually proving his point : on Windows something as basic as reading PDFs (yes you "absolutely" need that in 2015) requires specific knowledge of obscure names like "Foxit Reader". I'm not even going into annotating that PDF or adding your signature to it then. The same goes for : an office suite, a file manager with decent previewing+smart search capabilities, something that quickly resizes/converts your pictures, great photo editing/cataloging software, video editing software, music editing software, e-mail client, a comprehensive development environment (1) All of the above, which covers almost all areas of what people actually use computers for, comes as standard on OS X (1) Pages/Numbers/Keynote, Finder+Spotlight, Preview (also your answer for annotating PDFs btw), iPhoto/Photos, iMovie, Garageband, Mail, Unix CLI/XCode > Yes, you'll have to uncheck some boxes to avoid their bundled software. Big deal. Hate to say it in troll-ish way but : everyone but lifelong Windows users has higher standards than this.

laumars 12y ago
In fairness to Windows (and I can't believe I'm defending it because I happen to hate the platform!), bundling software is exactly what got Microsoft into trouble in previous years (Internet Explorer, MSN Messenger, Windows Defender, etc). Hopefully the package manager in Windows 10 will offer up a happy medium between expected software being easily available, and 3rd parties not being pushed out of the market place.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > In fairness to Windows (and I can't believe I'm defending it because I happen to hate the platform!), bundling software is exactly what got Microsoft into trouble in previous years (Internet Explorer, MSN Messenger, Windows Defender, etc). Except that bundling itself is not what got Microsoft in trouble. Having a monopoly, and then taking a coordinated series of actions relating to conditions of sale, bundling, and other steps to extend that monopoly into other markets and to eliminate threats to the monopoly -- with evidence, including fairly explicit documentary evidence from senior decision-makers at Microsoft -- that that was the intent of the action is what got Microsoft in trouble. They got in trouble under anti-monopoly laws, not anti-bundling laws.

seanp2k2 12y ago

http://www.nliteos.com http://www.nliteos.com helps massively when installing all the Java / Flash / browsers / anti-malware / other stuff you need on Windows. The Taiwanese driver thing is still real; windows may ship drivers and have some via windows update, but they probably won't be the newest (or even newest certified). Don't forget about the 4 hours, 10 reboots, 3 blue screens, and reinstalling your video card drivers twice of windows updates!

e12e 12y ago

> When's the last time you actually installed drivers on a fresh Windows install? On this very box, I bought a 8.1 pro license, and had to install drivers for my GPU (ATI r9), along with various other tidbits, which I've now forgotten. Oh, yeah, my usb sound card. Granted, I needed to install the closed source drivers on the Linux side, but it was easier (enable non-free, aptitude install ...) -- and the soundcard worked out of the box. At least the network card worked this time around on Windows (at least as far as I remember). So the only real hassle was that I needed a windows install from which to build the usb install stick. Thankfully I still dual-boot my laptop, so I could make the install image there.

JoachimS 12y ago

"When's the last time you actually installed drivers on a fresh Windows install?" This christmas. Building a new desktop for the first time in years. Bought high quality everything - Asus MB, Intel Quad core CPU, corsair memories etc. a fun and smooth experience. I also bought Win 8.1 Pro, setup the machine for dual boot and then proceeded to install Win followed by Xubuntu. Gave me a good perspective on the state of the OSes. Win install took much longer time, did not detect the AMD Radeon R9 card nor the Intel Eth interface on th MB. Or a lot of the peripherals. Using the supplied driver CD from Asus solved most of these, but not the GPU. To this day Win complains about some peripheral that it can't detect. Xubuntu install was faster, smooth and did automatically detect all peripherals including Eth and GPU. And SW install using SW Center and Synaptic just works. The Just Works used to be the perceived advantage of Win, and that Linux meant issues with drivers and fiddling with downloads from weird sites and manual builds. It seems the world has flipped, mainly due to Linux progressing while Win really hasn't. Apart from the Metro/Modern interface that is there as well as the classic and you (read: I) end up being transferred between them.