27 ms·

Working Remotely From A Tropical Island In Thailand

308 points by znq 12y ago

bart42_0 12y ago
It sounds and looks very nice. I have two questions: 1) Why did't they move to one of the Canary Islands? Part of Spain, Barcelona is a part of it. Less hassle because you stay in Europe, same language, same culture as in Barcelona. I rent a flat (70m2, furnished, 500m from the palmtree-beach, €500 /month), in the center of the capital on one of the islands, the internet connection is reasonable. Sounds comparable to Thailand. 2) How long did they stay in Thailand, was it a 2 month project-move or a multiple-year company move?
- znq 12y ago
  Hey, I'm one of the co-founders who runs Mobile Jazz. To answer your questions: 1) We actually wanted to experience a new culture and also have some kind of adventure. We're already doing things in Spain, so we just wanted to try out something new and see how it works :-) 2) This was only a 2 month experiment, but our whole company is set up for remote work. So some of us continuously travel and work from different places. Myself I've been living in a camper van for a year now (blog post pending ;-)), but this was the first experiment where we actually rented two houses offshore and moved a bunch of people there. Since then we also had another experiment. We spent some time in the Austrian Alps for skiing. We'll write about it soon. And the next thing we want to do is actually in Spain (in the mountains) and then we're planning to go to Mauritius for a month or so.
  - bart42_0 12y ago
    Ok, clear. It can be a great way to run project in a lovely pressure cooker. Everybody 7days per week involved/committed without the distraction of homely nuisances. I'm very interested in your camper-van-blogpost And Mauritius is great!
    - normloman 12y ago
      Do you realize how evil that could sound? "I can force everyone to work 7 days per week by moving them to an island, miles away from their friends and family." If you need people to work 7 days per week, that's a problem. Hire more people, or set longer deadlines. Emergencies happen, but working late for a whole week or more is a systemic, productivity and morale sapping flaw. But you're right. Mauritius is great!
      - znq 12y ago
        In our specific case in Thailand we never worked more than the usual 8 hours a day and on the weekends we organized trips together. So our goal was not to have people put together so that they work more, but rather have a good time and adventure together.
      - bart42_0 12y ago
        No, you can't force. But you can put a team close together, they don't have to work more than 8hrs/day. But if they meet on weekends, on trips, bbq's, there wil be shoptalk. That is good for the project. In most cases. I used to work for an 'offshore pipeline desig company' hard work, drinks on friday evening, family BBQ on Saturday. Lots of fun, and everybody was ALWAYS talking about kids, dogs and work.
        normloman 12y ago
        I don't see anything wrong with team events, as long as they are optional. People should be encouraged to have interests outside of work. It promotes a healthy work/life balance, and discourages groupthink. The occasional team building event can be great for morale, but be respectful of people's obligations. Your original post talked about relocating so team members could spend 7 days a week committed to the project. That goes far beyond a weekend BBQ.
  - scalesolved 12y ago
    When you say mountains I hope you mean sierra de gredos! :)
- rgrau 12y ago
  I thought the same (I'm working for 3scale, company with offices in the same building than MobileJazz in Barcelona). We just recently moved to Tenerife with one of my coworkers for those reasons. Good times. Not many developer meetups here in Santa Cruz though :/
  - archagon 12y ago
    Oh man! How is life there? I've only spent half a day in Santa Cruz but the beauty of the city and its surroundings amazed me and I've been aching to go back ever since. Is it possible to rent in one of those hillside villages? They look quite scenic. :)
  - bart42_0 12y ago
    Noooo, then you should hop over to Barcelona/Madrid.
    - rgrau 12y ago
      LOL. Or start a functional-reactive-concatenative-meetup group here
    - znq 12y ago
      All of us should meet up some time ;-)
- turbojerry 12y ago
  The DSL service we have had over the last year in Los Gigantes in Tenerife has been atrocious, down from 3Mbps to under 1Mbps, we are better off with a 3G connection and if you go with UKs 3 network you can roam there and use up to 250GB a month on the all you can eat plan.
  - jhome 12y ago
    Sadly 3 stopped all-you-can-eat tethering in December. People were using insane amounts - significantly more than 250GB.
    - turbojerry 12y ago
      Thanks, I hadn't noticed that, now it looks like only 25GB and no hotspot, I'll have to try Canaries Wireless next time I'm out there.
- icebraining 12y ago
  Are you sure you're not talking about the Balearic Islands? The Canaries are not even close to Barcelona, they're off the coast of Africa.
  - Sammi 12y ago
    Geographically you are right, but thinking timezonewise it is close.
deleted 12y ago
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nthState 12y ago
I've always dreamed of having a company (that was making money) where I could relocate my team once a month every month to a different place on the planet. London, Tokyo, Singapore, China, San Francisco, Iceland, France, Germany, Russia, Australia, India, Canada... We could be a travelling startup. That would be so cool!
- normloman 12y ago
  Yeah but then you'd need a team who'd travel with you. And few people can just pack up and move every month. If you have kids, you'll want to keep them in the same school. Or you might be tied down to care for a family member. I would never leave my area for long because it's where all my friends live. It's simpler to have a remote company. Then you can take all the trips you want, and your team can work from wherever they want.
  - iolothebard 12y ago
    Bah, everyone's in their 20 with no family!
    - normloman 12y ago
      The more time I spend here, the more I suspect that HN is populated with single 20 year olds with no friends or family. Thus, they create a "work family" to fill their social needs. The result is insular teams with mandatory beer pong tournaments.
      - znq 12y ago
        Many of us working at Mobile Jazz actually have family and we care a lot about integrating them in whatever we do: http://blog.mobilejazz.com/work-life-balance-at-mobile-jazz/ http://blog.mobilejazz.com/work-life-balance-at-mobile-jazz/ It's not always perfectly possible, but at least we try :-)
        normloman 12y ago
ben_pr 12y ago
I'm in Puerto Rico, moved here from the states two years ago. There are a number of tax incentives for people wanting to start tech companies here. Google Puerto Rico Act 20. Short version: "Act 20 offers a four (4)% corporate tax rate for Puerto Rican businesses providing services for exportation, 100% tax-exempt dividends from earnings and profits derived from the export services income of eligible businesses, and a 60% exemption on municipal taxes." Eligible businesses include IT software development. Besides the tax benefits there are a lot of other things to like here.
- S4M 12y ago
  Totally unrelated, but I did a short contract about maths for a Ben who was based in Puerto Rico, was it you?
  - ben_pr 12y ago
    No it wasn't me. I do consultant work for financial services industry in the states, online banking, IVR/VRU, 3rd party service integration, etc.
- personlurking 12y ago
  > there are a lot of other things to like here Can you list a few? Some questions I have, if you don't mind: How do you like Rincón? Do you need a car if in SJ? How much is Spanish used over English? Are living costs cheaper? Thx
  - ben_pr 12y ago
    My favorite part of the Island is the southwest side. I just moved to Yauco last week after living in Palmas del Mar for 2+ years. I can't say a lot about Rincon because I don't know but Mayaguez is the most American like city here with the highest rate of english speaking people I have seen. Living costs on most everything is a little expensive here except for service related items (car repairs, appliance repairs, etc). Expect a 5 - 10% increase in living expenses. You will need a car to get around unless you live in Palmas del Mar and then you will need a golf cart, there is a car rental on site if you need to go further than the onsite. Things to like. 1. The weather 2. Simpler Life 3. Tropical Fruits/Nuts everywhere 4. Less regulations on things I care about (homeschooling) 5. Tax system that is not the IRS 6. More community minded people, probably more like the states in the 70/80s. 7. I have a personal swimming pool, tennis court, basketball court and decent sized house for less than the one I left in Atlanta.
rdl 12y ago
I've always wanted to do this, but the objection raised is "how does this work for people with families?" (partner with a job is one thing, let alone kids).
- bart42_0 12y ago
  In most cases the kids will have a ball in a different country
  - Hytosys 12y ago
    I predict there is much more to parenthood besides fostering adventure, unfortunately. Educational and social stability come to mind. Relocating your family for two entire months is easier said than done.
    - obstacle1 12y ago
      The kids get two months off every summer. Take them then. Consider it a vacation. The most capable, adaptable, and accomplished adults I know moved around a bunch as kids. It forces you to learn how to live in the world and get out of your comfort zone. The most anxious, bitter, and underperforming adults I know grew up in the prototypical suburban bubble environment. End meaningless personal anecdote.
      - gbog 12y ago
        Well, I know of some people whose parent moved from one city to another every year, for professional reasons. And they had hard time building long term relationship with kids of their age, which means having a childhood with mostly adults "friends", and it is not good for everyone apparently. I still agree, and in fact kids are often more adaptable than adults. Usually they can handle change, and it is good for the mind to experience different worlds.
      - pyre 12y ago
        > The kids get two months off every summer Depends on the country / school system. Not all kids have 3 months of "summer break."
oinksoft 12y ago
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Pg85UESFms0J:blog.mobilejazz.com/working-remotely-from-a-tropical-island-in-thailand/&hl=en&gl=se&strip=1 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Pg85UES...
eyeareque 12y ago
I worked remotely from Tahiti for a few months. It was an amazing experience that I'll always cherish. Now I just need to convince my new boss to let me do this again somewhere else. For those of you in the pacific time zone (sf bay). If you're interested in doing this, I recommend Tahiti or Hawaii. It's three hours off from pacific time during the summer months but only 2 hours off during winter. You can easily work a local time of 6-3 which would be 8-5 in PT. This gives you the rest of the day to enjoy paradise. A tip on how to convince your boss to let you do this: Plan to go on a two week vacation somewhere. When asking for time off, ask your boss if they mind you working remotely for a couple weeks following your vacation. It might just work--and like in my case I found out that my boss didn't care if I stayed longer.
- iolothebard 12y ago
  Lol, 8am Pacific Time. If the developers I worked with were in by 10am scrum I was surprised. I called it CA time. Roll in at 10am, 1.5-2 hour lunch, surprisingly most everyone gone at 5pm because kids or something else. My coworkers would ask me how many hours I was working, to which I'd reply 40. How many are you working?
  - eyeareque 12y ago
    I worked 40 a week during my trip. I'm not a developer though, and my coworkers worked similar schedules.
  - anonu 12y ago
    I was recently on vacation in Fiji for 2 weeks. I visited a couple islands - even some that were quite tiny by island standards. What impressed me was that there was fast 4G wireless service everywhere. Would definitely think about working remotely from Fiji with that high internet quality.
    - jmccree 12y ago
      Fiji lucks out by being a midway point on many of the fiber cables from Australia to Hawaii.
codingdave 12y ago
My company works 100% remotely, and some people have lives more compatible with adventures like this than others. Most people will travel freely, working from wherever they are. We don't even tell each other when we travel for the most part... in our day to day operations, it just doesn't matter if I am in my home office, in my parent's kitchen in Florida, or in a hotel in another country. But we also do all have families with their own lives, so we have a stable home somewhere, and spend the majority of our time at that home. We also get into a working rhythm at our home, which gets disrupted with travel and adjustments to a new working environment, so when we really need top effectiveness for a project, it works better from "home", at least in our experience.
- znq 12y ago
  That was one of the problems we actually described in our blog post about the Thailand experience. It took as us while to actually find out rhythm (simple things like finding food, doing laundry, etc.) and that was taking a lot of our energy and time in the beginning. And then once you're set up and feel 'home' in that new place it's already time to leave again. So the biggest learning experience for us is to stay longer next time.
  - borgia 12y ago
    >That was one of the problems we actually described in our blog post about the Thailand experience. It took as us while to actually find out rhythm (simple things like finding food, doing laundry, etc.) and that was taking a lot of our energy and time in the beginning. Would it not be wise then to send someone ahead to scope these things out? As in, you're planning to have a team move to X, send someone to X two weeks in advance to sort out logistics, get internet dongles, map out places to eat, do laundry, etc? Rather than having whole teams trying to sort it out on arrival. I think what you've offered is great btw. The criticism being leveled on you here is pretty unfair and I'm not sure what is behind it. It's of great benefit to the locals to have westerners on western salaries come in for a month or two, spend maniacally on local resources and then leave. The argument against it is well you should be incorporating there and providing the locals with jobs and that's nice in theory but unfeasible in reality, and all those tourist bucks create and supply the locals with plenty of jobs in themselves.
neindanke 12y ago
Is what they're doing legal? I'm pretty sure a tourist visa means you can't use it for work (activities for which payment is received or capital is gained), even remote work. I'm told that the Thai government is pretty harsh in punishing such things.
- znq 12y ago
  We were there on holidays ;-) But I know what you're talking and while what we're doing is technically a gray zone, what the government is after is mostly freelancers that basically live in Thailand, but are not paying taxes there and are constantly on a visa run to re-enter the country.
  - neindanke 12y ago
    > We were there on holidays ;-) No, you stated you were working. From your article's title: "Working Remotely From A Tropical Island In Thailand" > what we're doing is technically a gray zone Did you file a tax statement and did you pay any taxes on income earned while you were residing in Thailand?
    - znq 12y ago
      > No, you stated you were working Noticed the smiley? Nevertheless, how do you differentiate between holidays and work and where to draw the line? If you're responding to a work emails while being on holidays, does that count towards the taxable income in that country you're visiting? > Did you file a tax statement and did you pay any taxes on income earned while you were residing in Thailand? Absolutely. We're not evading taxes. All income is taxed in Spain. And we weren't residing in Thailand. We were only visiting it and happened to also do some things that were related to our business back home in Europe. The work we did had nothing to do with Thailand itself. I'm not an international tax specialist, but at least from a moral point of view I don't see that we did something wrong. In European countries for example you only become a tax resident if you spend more than 183 days there. EDIT: formatting
      - 12y ago
ar7hur 12y ago
Do any of you guys have children?
- znq 12y ago
  Many of us have families and on this particular trip to Thailand those people stayed back home in Europe. However for the trip we did just recently to the Austrian Alps pretty much everyone joined. But that was also a lot shorter and the focus was more on skiing/snowboarding than on doing work.
rogerbinns 12y ago
Expensify take the whole company somewhere every year. Big picture about it http://blog.expensify.com/2013/10/25/ceo-friday-how-to-take-your-whole-company-overseas-and-live-to-tell-the-tale/ http://blog.expensify.com/2013/10/25/ceo-friday-how-to-take-... http://we.are.expensify.com/offshoring/ http://we.are.expensify.com/offshoring/ There are reports in the archives http://blog.expensify.com/category/company-life/ http://blog.expensify.com/category/company-life/ including Portugal, Croatia, Thailand, Vietnam ...
lazyant 12y ago
$20 helmets hmm, I guess it's better than nothing.
- znq 12y ago
  Those were already the best they had available on the island ;-)
  - lazyant 12y ago
    Glad that you are setting an example ATGATT Salut
hustlebz 12y ago
TIL: the startup world loves sunny beach locations. Just posted an article about the blue house doing a similar thing in Morocco (or at least providing a framework for startups to do so in tropical locations): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9347228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9347228
nathan_f77 12y ago
About to do the same thing in Chiang Mai where my wife will be teaching English. Really enjoying Bangkok so far, but want to check out some of these remote islands sometime soon.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- znq 12y ago
  Taking aside the current legal situation and trying to look at it from a purely financial aspect, wouldn't it be beneficial for countries like Thailand to allow those kind of people in for a limited amount of time and have them spend their money there? Assuming Thailand will crack down on those temporary remote workers, they will just go some other place. EDIT: fixed typo.
  - nonuby 12y ago
    Agreed, but TIT. Google it..
    - nonuby 12y ago
      To clarify TIT = This is Thailand
  - technomancy 12y ago
    It's not financially motivated; it has more to do with nationalistic pride. They are very proud of the fact that they're the only SE Asian nation never to have been conquered by a western power. They are rightly wary of western power being exerted now through corporations rather than through a military, because that's how things work these days, so they limit the ability for western companies to make inroads here. (For example the local Shell, Esso, etc. are all technically wholly owned by Thais.) Obviously this concern doesn't apply for freelancers and small businesses whose clients are in the US, but those folks aren't numerous enough to affect immigration policy.
    - geomark 12y ago
      I often hear that bit about Thai pride over never being colonized. It's laughable in light of actual Thai history. Like the events of 1893 when the French sailed two gunboats up the Chao Phraya river, aimed their guns at the royal palace, and said we're taking everything east of the Mekhong River. The Thais gave it up without a fight. The French colonzied it and never gave it back. When they left it became what is now known as Laos.
NanoWar 12y ago
I think you can go even cheaper in Thailand, though.
- technomancy 12y ago
  I laughed at the "10 euros a meal" part; that would be a week's worth of dinners out where I live in Thailand.
plg 12y ago
a comment by way of someone (me) who is getting a bit on in age... nice idea, but what about medical care? being in a large north american city, access to high quality and high-end medical care is something that I've taken advantage of several times and it sure makes me sleep better at night
- geomark 12y ago
  I've been living in Thailand for more than 10 years and have had a few major medical events. Medical care here in Thailand is far better than what I experienced in the U.S. The quality of care at private hospitals (and the country's central public hospital Siriraj) are generally excellent. And the cost is a fraction of the U.S. plus you actually know the cost going in instead of the run-around bait-and-switch hide-the-price until it is submitted to the insurance company game that is the U.S.
plg 12y ago
a comment by way of someone (me) who is getting a bit on in age... nice idea, but what about medical care? being in a large north american city, access to high quality and high-end medical care is something that I've taken advantage of several times and it sure makes me sleep better at night
plg 12y ago
a comment by way of someone (me) who is getting a bit on in age... nice idea, but what about medical care? being in a large north american city, access to high quality and high-end medical care is something that I've taken advantage of several times and it sure makes me sleep better at night
yallahaline 12y ago
Funny, I saw a similar post on HN today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9347228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9347228 It's about a startup residence in Morocco, startups came and work there for one month
zingar 12y ago
500 EUR per room seems like a lot, and not just for Thailand. I'm planning a holiday in France, I have a two bedroom place booked for more or less the same price near the beach in Marseille (monthly rate on AirBnB, not the cheapest option either). I'll also be visiting Prague where I see places for half that. My home in Cape Town is a very well situated two bedroom flat, also half that price.
- geomark 12y ago
  That IS a lot of money in Thailand. But the truth is that nice stuff in Thailand costs a lot more than what most foreigners think. Sure, you can rent a one-room condo in a cheap part of Bangkok for less than 100 EUR a month, and eat cheap street food for 1 EUR a meal. But that gets old fast. Resort destinations that are popular with foreigners are pricey. The photos in the article show a nice looking house in a popular destination so I'm not surprised at the cost. Cheap food is cheap but when you want a nice steak be prepared to pay 3X what you would in the US (local beef is horrid so imported is the only reasonable choice). Nice bottle of wine 5X what you pay in France. At least seafood is about the same as western prices, which is to say a little pricey. And if you decide to stop being a tourist working on your holiday (which is all that digital nomads really are) and stay longer you will want to buy larger ticket items. You will find that electronics are higher priced and vehicles are 2X to 3X the price compared to the west.
  - stephenr 12y ago
    If you come to Thailand and try to live a western lifestyle of course it's going to be expensive.
needaremotegig 12y ago
I'm a software engineer in Thailand who is working on a startup while doing some part-time consulting. I started consulting in the last few months, and my biggest client has recently had to delay payment because they don't have enough money. I've also been applying to a few gigs on gun.io, and one proposal was accepted, but they've just pulled out. They need some more time to scope out the idea before starting development. Living overseas is awesome if you have a stable job or a lot of savings, but it can be pretty terrifying otherwise. So I'm in a bit of a jam at the moment, and would like to ask for your help with finding a one-off or part-time gig to stay afloat. I've already tried most of the remote job sites [1]. I'm a Rails developer with over 5 years of experience and I'm competent with front-end development, most JavaScript frameworks, and DevOps. I also have 6 months of full-time experience with iOS development, in Swift and Objective-C. One other thing is that I really enjoy debugging, and am pretty good at tracking down difficult bugs. If you or one of your developers are stuck on anything, I'd be happy to take a look. No payment until it's fixed. My rate is $150 per hour, and is not negotiable. I can usually commit to 20 hours per week, but I will be available for full-time work (up to 60 hours per week) over the next few weeks. Please leave a comment if you have any advice. If you would like to get in touch and view my GitHub profile, then please send me an email at needaremotegig@gmail.com [1]: https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-job https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-job
- hajrice 12y ago
  >> So I'm in a bit of a jam at the moment, and would like to ask for your help with finding a one-off or part-time gig to stay afloat. I've already tried most of the remote job sites [1]. >> My rate is $150 per hour, and is not negotiable. I can usually commit to 20 hours per week, but I will be available for full-time work (60 hours per week) over the next few weeks. So you're stuck in Thailand, turn to help on Hacker news, and then mention how "My rate is $150 per hour, and is not negotiable." Not sure how many people you'll attract with this strategy.
  - needaremotegig 12y ago
    I'm hoping to attract serious clients who value high-quality work. I do have a little bit of a buffer. My client's site is also profitable, so they'll be able to pay me in the next few weeks. But I'll have to ease back the hours with them, so am looking for some more projects.
b1twise 12y ago
I work remote, and worked even more remotely for a year. Yeah, this was just a 2mo bit of fun. Great. But longer stays in Thailand quickly run into immigration law. If you're having power outages or brownouts, you want voltage regulators and UPS'. Bad power will wreck your electronics. It's good to have a backup internet connection as well. I've had outages lasting up to 3 weeks, and what are you really going to do about it to motivate a telephone company to work faster? The 37signals people created a short book about working remotely. At about the same time as I was having problems with someone not overlapping their hours with the rest of the team, their book pointed out the same issue. If you don't overlap, people will become isolated in a very bad way. If you hire someone you just have to clarify the expected hours upfront.
gbog 12y ago
I can't stop thinking that this seemingly nice story is in fact the story of a failure. How many employees did learn Thai? How many did decide there was no better place for them and stayed there? How many did find their so in this island? Why didn't the whole team stay there indefinitely? I say that as a French who decided ten years ago that China was my place, learnt the language, married a Chinese woman and have kids and job in Beijing with no special return plan.
- socialist_coder 12y ago
  Your goal was completely different. They like living in Spain / wherever else they live. They also like travelling to other countries. They're taking a vacation and working from a new place, for a short time. They don't want to live there.
  - byoung2 12y ago
    It also may not be possible to live there permanently and work because of visa and residency restrictions. I wanted to move to the Philippines a few years back (my wife is from Manila), but in researching I found it would be difficult to live and work there as a US citizen. There are classes of visa that allow you to live there and start companies (e.g. SIRV [1]), but they usually require a large deposit (~$75,000 USD) and a lot of strict requirements. There is also a retirees visa (SRRV [2]) which is a little cheaper ($20,000 locked in for duration or $50,000 convertible to domestic investment), but you have to be 35 or older (which I am as of 2 months ago). 1. http://philippinevisalawyer.com/?q=special-investor-resident-visa-sirv http://philippinevisalawyer.com/?q=special-investor-resident... 2. http://www.pra.gov.ph/main/srrv_program?page=1 http://www.pra.gov.ph/main/srrv_program?page=1
  - gbog 12y ago
    I didn't have the goal to be swallowed by China the first time I went there, I just was.
- nicholasdrake 12y ago
  哇塞！
socialist_coder 12y ago
This is great. My startup is really similar. We also value people over profits (and we're profitable!), we all work remotely, and we all meetup in random places for a few weeks so we can get a vacation plus some face-to-face working time in. So far, it's been awesome. We've only done 1 meetup so far, at a ski chalet in the Alps, and it was great. The significant others & kids came for 1 week, and then we had 2 weeks of just the employees. The biggest challenge is definitely the internet. When you have 6 people in a house all trying to pull/push from git, sync dropbox, do skype calls, etc; it can put quite a burden on whatever crappy DSL the vacation house has installed. We would love to do a SE Asia work trip but so far we have ignored the region due to the internet connectivity. I'm actually really surprised that the mobile internet there was good enough for you guys to work with. Cheers, and keep it up! It's nice to see there are more startups like this out there.
- pmcpinto 12y ago
  What's the name of your startup?
  - socialist_coder 12y ago
    http://www.foxcubgames.com/ http://www.foxcubgames.com/
- stephenr 12y ago
  Why would you assume SE Asia has worse internet connectivity options than other countries? the vast majority of people here use just a smartphone or maybe a tablet to access the internet. 3G is fairly ubiquitous, 4G is in major locations, and data is relatively cheap. (I don't bother with a local Sim when I go back to Australia - it's literally cheaper to roam and use data via my Thai SIM than to pay for Telstra prepaid)
  - socialist_coder 12y ago
    Because when travelling through SE Asia previously, the wifi was generally terrible. I didn't realize the mobile data was that good.
alazar 12y ago
Are there spiders?

308 points by znq 12y ago

It sounds and looks very nice. I have two questions: 1) Why did't they move to one of the Canary Islands? Part of Spain, Barcelona is a part of it. Less hassle because you stay in Europe, same language, same culture as in Barcelona. I rent a flat (70m2, furnished, 500m from the palmtree-beach, €500 /month), in the center of the capital on one of the islands, the internet connection is reasonable. Sounds comparable to Thailand. 2) How long did they stay in Thailand, was it a 2 month project-move or a multiple-year company move?

znq 12y ago
Hey, I'm one of the co-founders who runs Mobile Jazz. To answer your questions: 1) We actually wanted to experience a new culture and also have some kind of adventure. We're already doing things in Spain, so we just wanted to try out something new and see how it works :-) 2) This was only a 2 month experiment, but our whole company is set up for remote work. So some of us continuously travel and work from different places. Myself I've been living in a camper van for a year now (blog post pending ;-)), but this was the first experiment where we actually rented two houses offshore and moved a bunch of people there. Since then we also had another experiment. We spent some time in the Austrian Alps for skiing. We'll write about it soon. And the next thing we want to do is actually in Spain (in the mountains) and then we're planning to go to Mauritius for a month or so.
- bart42_0 12y ago
  Ok, clear. It can be a great way to run project in a lovely pressure cooker. Everybody 7days per week involved/committed without the distraction of homely nuisances. I'm very interested in your camper-van-blogpost And Mauritius is great!
  - normloman 12y ago
    Do you realize how evil that could sound? "I can force everyone to work 7 days per week by moving them to an island, miles away from their friends and family." If you need people to work 7 days per week, that's a problem. Hire more people, or set longer deadlines. Emergencies happen, but working late for a whole week or more is a systemic, productivity and morale sapping flaw. But you're right. Mauritius is great!
    - znq 12y ago
      In our specific case in Thailand we never worked more than the usual 8 hours a day and on the weekends we organized trips together. So our goal was not to have people put together so that they work more, but rather have a good time and adventure together.
    - bart42_0 12y ago
      No, you can't force. But you can put a team close together, they don't have to work more than 8hrs/day. But if they meet on weekends, on trips, bbq's, there wil be shoptalk. That is good for the project. In most cases. I used to work for an 'offshore pipeline desig company' hard work, drinks on friday evening, family BBQ on Saturday. Lots of fun, and everybody was ALWAYS talking about kids, dogs and work.
      - normloman 12y ago
        I don't see anything wrong with team events, as long as they are optional. People should be encouraged to have interests outside of work. It promotes a healthy work/life balance, and discourages groupthink. The occasional team building event can be great for morale, but be respectful of people's obligations. Your original post talked about relocating so team members could spend 7 days a week committed to the project. That goes far beyond a weekend BBQ.
- scalesolved 12y ago
  When you say mountains I hope you mean sierra de gredos! :)
rgrau 12y ago
I thought the same (I'm working for 3scale, company with offices in the same building than MobileJazz in Barcelona). We just recently moved to Tenerife with one of my coworkers for those reasons. Good times. Not many developer meetups here in Santa Cruz though :/
- archagon 12y ago
  Oh man! How is life there? I've only spent half a day in Santa Cruz but the beauty of the city and its surroundings amazed me and I've been aching to go back ever since. Is it possible to rent in one of those hillside villages? They look quite scenic. :)
- bart42_0 12y ago
  Noooo, then you should hop over to Barcelona/Madrid.
  - rgrau 12y ago
    LOL. Or start a functional-reactive-concatenative-meetup group here
  - znq 12y ago
    All of us should meet up some time ;-)
turbojerry 12y ago
The DSL service we have had over the last year in Los Gigantes in Tenerife has been atrocious, down from 3Mbps to under 1Mbps, we are better off with a 3G connection and if you go with UKs 3 network you can roam there and use up to 250GB a month on the all you can eat plan.
- jhome 12y ago
  Sadly 3 stopped all-you-can-eat tethering in December. People were using insane amounts - significantly more than 250GB.
  - turbojerry 12y ago
    Thanks, I hadn't noticed that, now it looks like only 25GB and no hotspot, I'll have to try Canaries Wireless next time I'm out there.
icebraining 12y ago
Are you sure you're not talking about the Balearic Islands? The Canaries are not even close to Barcelona, they're off the coast of Africa.
- Sammi 12y ago
  Geographically you are right, but thinking timezonewise it is close.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

nthState 12y ago

I've always dreamed of having a company (that was making money) where I could relocate my team once a month every month to a different place on the planet. London, Tokyo, Singapore, China, San Francisco, Iceland, France, Germany, Russia, Australia, India, Canada... We could be a travelling startup. That would be so cool!

normloman 12y ago
Yeah but then you'd need a team who'd travel with you. And few people can just pack up and move every month. If you have kids, you'll want to keep them in the same school. Or you might be tied down to care for a family member. I would never leave my area for long because it's where all my friends live. It's simpler to have a remote company. Then you can take all the trips you want, and your team can work from wherever they want.
- iolothebard 12y ago
  Bah, everyone's in their 20 with no family!
  - normloman 12y ago
    The more time I spend here, the more I suspect that HN is populated with single 20 year olds with no friends or family. Thus, they create a "work family" to fill their social needs. The result is insular teams with mandatory beer pong tournaments.
    - znq 12y ago
      Many of us working at Mobile Jazz actually have family and we care a lot about integrating them in whatever we do: http://blog.mobilejazz.com/work-life-balance-at-mobile-jazz/ http://blog.mobilejazz.com/work-life-balance-at-mobile-jazz/ It's not always perfectly possible, but at least we try :-)
      - normloman 12y ago

ben_pr 12y ago

I'm in Puerto Rico, moved here from the states two years ago. There are a number of tax incentives for people wanting to start tech companies here. Google Puerto Rico Act 20. Short version: "Act 20 offers a four (4)% corporate tax rate for Puerto Rican businesses providing services for exportation, 100% tax-exempt dividends from earnings and profits derived from the export services income of eligible businesses, and a 60% exemption on municipal taxes." Eligible businesses include IT software development. Besides the tax benefits there are a lot of other things to like here.

S4M 12y ago
Totally unrelated, but I did a short contract about maths for a Ben who was based in Puerto Rico, was it you?
- ben_pr 12y ago
  No it wasn't me. I do consultant work for financial services industry in the states, online banking, IVR/VRU, 3rd party service integration, etc.
personlurking 12y ago
> there are a lot of other things to like here Can you list a few? Some questions I have, if you don't mind: How do you like Rincón? Do you need a car if in SJ? How much is Spanish used over English? Are living costs cheaper? Thx
- ben_pr 12y ago
  My favorite part of the Island is the southwest side. I just moved to Yauco last week after living in Palmas del Mar for 2+ years. I can't say a lot about Rincon because I don't know but Mayaguez is the most American like city here with the highest rate of english speaking people I have seen. Living costs on most everything is a little expensive here except for service related items (car repairs, appliance repairs, etc). Expect a 5 - 10% increase in living expenses. You will need a car to get around unless you live in Palmas del Mar and then you will need a golf cart, there is a car rental on site if you need to go further than the onsite. Things to like. 1. The weather 2. Simpler Life 3. Tropical Fruits/Nuts everywhere 4. Less regulations on things I care about (homeschooling) 5. Tax system that is not the IRS 6. More community minded people, probably more like the states in the 70/80s. 7. I have a personal swimming pool, tennis court, basketball court and decent sized house for less than the one I left in Atlanta.

rdl 12y ago

I've always wanted to do this, but the objection raised is "how does this work for people with families?" (partner with a job is one thing, let alone kids).

bart42_0 12y ago
In most cases the kids will have a ball in a different country
- Hytosys 12y ago
  I predict there is much more to parenthood besides fostering adventure, unfortunately. Educational and social stability come to mind. Relocating your family for two entire months is easier said than done.
  - obstacle1 12y ago
    The kids get two months off every summer. Take them then. Consider it a vacation. The most capable, adaptable, and accomplished adults I know moved around a bunch as kids. It forces you to learn how to live in the world and get out of your comfort zone. The most anxious, bitter, and underperforming adults I know grew up in the prototypical suburban bubble environment. End meaningless personal anecdote.
    - gbog 12y ago
      Well, I know of some people whose parent moved from one city to another every year, for professional reasons. And they had hard time building long term relationship with kids of their age, which means having a childhood with mostly adults "friends", and it is not good for everyone apparently. I still agree, and in fact kids are often more adaptable than adults. Usually they can handle change, and it is good for the mind to experience different worlds.
    - pyre 12y ago
      > The kids get two months off every summer Depends on the country / school system. Not all kids have 3 months of "summer break."

oinksoft 12y ago

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Pg85UESFms0J:blog.mobilejazz.com/working-remotely-from-a-tropical-island-in-thailand/&hl=en&gl=se&strip=1 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Pg85UES...

eyeareque 12y ago

I worked remotely from Tahiti for a few months. It was an amazing experience that I'll always cherish. Now I just need to convince my new boss to let me do this again somewhere else. For those of you in the pacific time zone (sf bay). If you're interested in doing this, I recommend Tahiti or Hawaii. It's three hours off from pacific time during the summer months but only 2 hours off during winter. You can easily work a local time of 6-3 which would be 8-5 in PT. This gives you the rest of the day to enjoy paradise. A tip on how to convince your boss to let you do this: Plan to go on a two week vacation somewhere. When asking for time off, ask your boss if they mind you working remotely for a couple weeks following your vacation. It might just work--and like in my case I found out that my boss didn't care if I stayed longer.

iolothebard 12y ago
Lol, 8am Pacific Time. If the developers I worked with were in by 10am scrum I was surprised. I called it CA time. Roll in at 10am, 1.5-2 hour lunch, surprisingly most everyone gone at 5pm because kids or something else. My coworkers would ask me how many hours I was working, to which I'd reply 40. How many are you working?
- eyeareque 12y ago
  I worked 40 a week during my trip. I'm not a developer though, and my coworkers worked similar schedules.
- anonu 12y ago
  I was recently on vacation in Fiji for 2 weeks. I visited a couple islands - even some that were quite tiny by island standards. What impressed me was that there was fast 4G wireless service everywhere. Would definitely think about working remotely from Fiji with that high internet quality.
  - jmccree 12y ago
    Fiji lucks out by being a midway point on many of the fiber cables from Australia to Hawaii.

codingdave 12y ago

My company works 100% remotely, and some people have lives more compatible with adventures like this than others. Most people will travel freely, working from wherever they are. We don't even tell each other when we travel for the most part... in our day to day operations, it just doesn't matter if I am in my home office, in my parent's kitchen in Florida, or in a hotel in another country. But we also do all have families with their own lives, so we have a stable home somewhere, and spend the majority of our time at that home. We also get into a working rhythm at our home, which gets disrupted with travel and adjustments to a new working environment, so when we really need top effectiveness for a project, it works better from "home", at least in our experience.

znq 12y ago
That was one of the problems we actually described in our blog post about the Thailand experience. It took as us while to actually find out rhythm (simple things like finding food, doing laundry, etc.) and that was taking a lot of our energy and time in the beginning. And then once you're set up and feel 'home' in that new place it's already time to leave again. So the biggest learning experience for us is to stay longer next time.
- borgia 12y ago
  >That was one of the problems we actually described in our blog post about the Thailand experience. It took as us while to actually find out rhythm (simple things like finding food, doing laundry, etc.) and that was taking a lot of our energy and time in the beginning. Would it not be wise then to send someone ahead to scope these things out? As in, you're planning to have a team move to X, send someone to X two weeks in advance to sort out logistics, get internet dongles, map out places to eat, do laundry, etc? Rather than having whole teams trying to sort it out on arrival. I think what you've offered is great btw. The criticism being leveled on you here is pretty unfair and I'm not sure what is behind it. It's of great benefit to the locals to have westerners on western salaries come in for a month or two, spend maniacally on local resources and then leave. The argument against it is well you should be incorporating there and providing the locals with jobs and that's nice in theory but unfeasible in reality, and all those tourist bucks create and supply the locals with plenty of jobs in themselves.

neindanke 12y ago

Is what they're doing legal? I'm pretty sure a tourist visa means you can't use it for work (activities for which payment is received or capital is gained), even remote work. I'm told that the Thai government is pretty harsh in punishing such things.

znq 12y ago
We were there on holidays ;-) But I know what you're talking and while what we're doing is technically a gray zone, what the government is after is mostly freelancers that basically live in Thailand, but are not paying taxes there and are constantly on a visa run to re-enter the country.
- neindanke 12y ago
  > We were there on holidays ;-) No, you stated you were working. From your article's title: "Working Remotely From A Tropical Island In Thailand" > what we're doing is technically a gray zone Did you file a tax statement and did you pay any taxes on income earned while you were residing in Thailand?
  - znq 12y ago
    > No, you stated you were working Noticed the smiley? Nevertheless, how do you differentiate between holidays and work and where to draw the line? If you're responding to a work emails while being on holidays, does that count towards the taxable income in that country you're visiting? > Did you file a tax statement and did you pay any taxes on income earned while you were residing in Thailand? Absolutely. We're not evading taxes. All income is taxed in Spain. And we weren't residing in Thailand. We were only visiting it and happened to also do some things that were related to our business back home in Europe. The work we did had nothing to do with Thailand itself. I'm not an international tax specialist, but at least from a moral point of view I don't see that we did something wrong. In European countries for example you only become a tax resident if you spend more than 183 days there. EDIT: formatting
    - 12y ago

ar7hur 12y ago

Do any of you guys have children?

znq 12y ago
Many of us have families and on this particular trip to Thailand those people stayed back home in Europe. However for the trip we did just recently to the Austrian Alps pretty much everyone joined. But that was also a lot shorter and the focus was more on skiing/snowboarding than on doing work.

rogerbinns 12y ago

Expensify take the whole company somewhere every year. Big picture about it http://blog.expensify.com/2013/10/25/ceo-friday-how-to-take-your-whole-company-overseas-and-live-to-tell-the-tale/ http://blog.expensify.com/2013/10/25/ceo-friday-how-to-take-... http://we.are.expensify.com/offshoring/ http://we.are.expensify.com/offshoring/ There are reports in the archives http://blog.expensify.com/category/company-life/ http://blog.expensify.com/category/company-life/ including Portugal, Croatia, Thailand, Vietnam ...

lazyant 12y ago

$20 helmets hmm, I guess it's better than nothing.

znq 12y ago
Those were already the best they had available on the island ;-)
- lazyant 12y ago
  Glad that you are setting an example ATGATT Salut

hustlebz 12y ago

TIL: the startup world loves sunny beach locations. Just posted an article about the blue house doing a similar thing in Morocco (or at least providing a framework for startups to do so in tropical locations): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9347228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9347228

nathan_f77 12y ago

About to do the same thing in Chiang Mai where my wife will be teaching English. Really enjoying Bangkok so far, but want to check out some of these remote islands sometime soon.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

znq 12y ago
Taking aside the current legal situation and trying to look at it from a purely financial aspect, wouldn't it be beneficial for countries like Thailand to allow those kind of people in for a limited amount of time and have them spend their money there? Assuming Thailand will crack down on those temporary remote workers, they will just go some other place. EDIT: fixed typo.
- nonuby 12y ago
  Agreed, but TIT. Google it..
  - nonuby 12y ago
    To clarify TIT = This is Thailand
- technomancy 12y ago
  It's not financially motivated; it has more to do with nationalistic pride. They are very proud of the fact that they're the only SE Asian nation never to have been conquered by a western power. They are rightly wary of western power being exerted now through corporations rather than through a military, because that's how things work these days, so they limit the ability for western companies to make inroads here. (For example the local Shell, Esso, etc. are all technically wholly owned by Thais.) Obviously this concern doesn't apply for freelancers and small businesses whose clients are in the US, but those folks aren't numerous enough to affect immigration policy.
  - geomark 12y ago
    I often hear that bit about Thai pride over never being colonized. It's laughable in light of actual Thai history. Like the events of 1893 when the French sailed two gunboats up the Chao Phraya river, aimed their guns at the royal palace, and said we're taking everything east of the Mekhong River. The Thais gave it up without a fight. The French colonzied it and never gave it back. When they left it became what is now known as Laos.

NanoWar 12y ago

I think you can go even cheaper in Thailand, though.

technomancy 12y ago
I laughed at the "10 euros a meal" part; that would be a week's worth of dinners out where I live in Thailand.

plg 12y ago

a comment by way of someone (me) who is getting a bit on in age... nice idea, but what about medical care? being in a large north american city, access to high quality and high-end medical care is something that I've taken advantage of several times and it sure makes me sleep better at night

geomark 12y ago
I've been living in Thailand for more than 10 years and have had a few major medical events. Medical care here in Thailand is far better than what I experienced in the U.S. The quality of care at private hospitals (and the country's central public hospital Siriraj) are generally excellent. And the cost is a fraction of the U.S. plus you actually know the cost going in instead of the run-around bait-and-switch hide-the-price until it is submitted to the insurance company game that is the U.S.

plg 12y ago

yallahaline 12y ago

Funny, I saw a similar post on HN today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9347228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9347228 It's about a startup residence in Morocco, startups came and work there for one month

zingar 12y ago

500 EUR per room seems like a lot, and not just for Thailand. I'm planning a holiday in France, I have a two bedroom place booked for more or less the same price near the beach in Marseille (monthly rate on AirBnB, not the cheapest option either). I'll also be visiting Prague where I see places for half that. My home in Cape Town is a very well situated two bedroom flat, also half that price.

geomark 12y ago
That IS a lot of money in Thailand. But the truth is that nice stuff in Thailand costs a lot more than what most foreigners think. Sure, you can rent a one-room condo in a cheap part of Bangkok for less than 100 EUR a month, and eat cheap street food for 1 EUR a meal. But that gets old fast. Resort destinations that are popular with foreigners are pricey. The photos in the article show a nice looking house in a popular destination so I'm not surprised at the cost. Cheap food is cheap but when you want a nice steak be prepared to pay 3X what you would in the US (local beef is horrid so imported is the only reasonable choice). Nice bottle of wine 5X what you pay in France. At least seafood is about the same as western prices, which is to say a little pricey. And if you decide to stop being a tourist working on your holiday (which is all that digital nomads really are) and stay longer you will want to buy larger ticket items. You will find that electronics are higher priced and vehicles are 2X to 3X the price compared to the west.
- stephenr 12y ago
  If you come to Thailand and try to live a western lifestyle of course it's going to be expensive.

needaremotegig 12y ago

I'm a software engineer in Thailand who is working on a startup while doing some part-time consulting. I started consulting in the last few months, and my biggest client has recently had to delay payment because they don't have enough money. I've also been applying to a few gigs on gun.io, and one proposal was accepted, but they've just pulled out. They need some more time to scope out the idea before starting development. Living overseas is awesome if you have a stable job or a lot of savings, but it can be pretty terrifying otherwise. So I'm in a bit of a jam at the moment, and would like to ask for your help with finding a one-off or part-time gig to stay afloat. I've already tried most of the remote job sites [1]. I'm a Rails developer with over 5 years of experience and I'm competent with front-end development, most JavaScript frameworks, and DevOps. I also have 6 months of full-time experience with iOS development, in Swift and Objective-C. One other thing is that I really enjoy debugging, and am pretty good at tracking down difficult bugs. If you or one of your developers are stuck on anything, I'd be happy to take a look. No payment until it's fixed. My rate is $150 per hour, and is not negotiable. I can usually commit to 20 hours per week, but I will be available for full-time work (up to 60 hours per week) over the next few weeks. Please leave a comment if you have any advice. If you would like to get in touch and view my GitHub profile, then please send me an email at needaremotegig@gmail.com [1]: https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-job https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-job

hajrice 12y ago
>> So I'm in a bit of a jam at the moment, and would like to ask for your help with finding a one-off or part-time gig to stay afloat. I've already tried most of the remote job sites [1]. >> My rate is $150 per hour, and is not negotiable. I can usually commit to 20 hours per week, but I will be available for full-time work (60 hours per week) over the next few weeks. So you're stuck in Thailand, turn to help on Hacker news, and then mention how "My rate is $150 per hour, and is not negotiable." Not sure how many people you'll attract with this strategy.
- needaremotegig 12y ago
  I'm hoping to attract serious clients who value high-quality work. I do have a little bit of a buffer. My client's site is also profitable, so they'll be able to pay me in the next few weeks. But I'll have to ease back the hours with them, so am looking for some more projects.

b1twise 12y ago

I work remote, and worked even more remotely for a year. Yeah, this was just a 2mo bit of fun. Great. But longer stays in Thailand quickly run into immigration law. If you're having power outages or brownouts, you want voltage regulators and UPS'. Bad power will wreck your electronics. It's good to have a backup internet connection as well. I've had outages lasting up to 3 weeks, and what are you really going to do about it to motivate a telephone company to work faster? The 37signals people created a short book about working remotely. At about the same time as I was having problems with someone not overlapping their hours with the rest of the team, their book pointed out the same issue. If you don't overlap, people will become isolated in a very bad way. If you hire someone you just have to clarify the expected hours upfront.

gbog 12y ago

I can't stop thinking that this seemingly nice story is in fact the story of a failure. How many employees did learn Thai? How many did decide there was no better place for them and stayed there? How many did find their so in this island? Why didn't the whole team stay there indefinitely? I say that as a French who decided ten years ago that China was my place, learnt the language, married a Chinese woman and have kids and job in Beijing with no special return plan.

socialist_coder 12y ago
Your goal was completely different. They like living in Spain / wherever else they live. They also like travelling to other countries. They're taking a vacation and working from a new place, for a short time. They don't want to live there.
- byoung2 12y ago
  It also may not be possible to live there permanently and work because of visa and residency restrictions. I wanted to move to the Philippines a few years back (my wife is from Manila), but in researching I found it would be difficult to live and work there as a US citizen. There are classes of visa that allow you to live there and start companies (e.g. SIRV [1]), but they usually require a large deposit (~$75,000 USD) and a lot of strict requirements. There is also a retirees visa (SRRV [2]) which is a little cheaper ($20,000 locked in for duration or $50,000 convertible to domestic investment), but you have to be 35 or older (which I am as of 2 months ago). 1. http://philippinevisalawyer.com/?q=special-investor-resident-visa-sirv http://philippinevisalawyer.com/?q=special-investor-resident... 2. http://www.pra.gov.ph/main/srrv_program?page=1 http://www.pra.gov.ph/main/srrv_program?page=1
- gbog 12y ago
  I didn't have the goal to be swallowed by China the first time I went there, I just was.
nicholasdrake 12y ago
哇塞！

socialist_coder 12y ago

This is great. My startup is really similar. We also value people over profits (and we're profitable!), we all work remotely, and we all meetup in random places for a few weeks so we can get a vacation plus some face-to-face working time in. So far, it's been awesome. We've only done 1 meetup so far, at a ski chalet in the Alps, and it was great. The significant others & kids came for 1 week, and then we had 2 weeks of just the employees. The biggest challenge is definitely the internet. When you have 6 people in a house all trying to pull/push from git, sync dropbox, do skype calls, etc; it can put quite a burden on whatever crappy DSL the vacation house has installed. We would love to do a SE Asia work trip but so far we have ignored the region due to the internet connectivity. I'm actually really surprised that the mobile internet there was good enough for you guys to work with. Cheers, and keep it up! It's nice to see there are more startups like this out there.

pmcpinto 12y ago
What's the name of your startup?
- socialist_coder 12y ago
  http://www.foxcubgames.com/ http://www.foxcubgames.com/
stephenr 12y ago
Why would you assume SE Asia has worse internet connectivity options than other countries? the vast majority of people here use just a smartphone or maybe a tablet to access the internet. 3G is fairly ubiquitous, 4G is in major locations, and data is relatively cheap. (I don't bother with a local Sim when I go back to Australia - it's literally cheaper to roam and use data via my Thai SIM than to pay for Telstra prepaid)
- socialist_coder 12y ago
  Because when travelling through SE Asia previously, the wifi was generally terrible. I didn't realize the mobile data was that good.

alazar 12y ago

Are there spiders?