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We didn't create mathematics, we discovered it.

by heed 12y ago

ruggeri 12y ago
Kinda both, right? Mathematics is a human-created formalism inspired by, and intended to explain, the natural world. Mathematics is not the real world; it's a map, not the territory. But of course it's not surprising if a map resembles the real world...
BrainInAJar 12y ago
we created mathematics as a logical progression from axioms. We invented the axioms (they're about whatever seems "reasonable" to us) and they're the structure on which we build everything in mathematics.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
amelius 12y ago
"God made the integers, all else is the work of man." -- Leopold Kronecker
- aikah 12y ago
  If mankind could come up with Math and Physics, it's more likely than mankind made up God too. The modern monotheist God isn't that old ,roughly 3000 years. "History" itself is between 10,000 and 20,000 year old. Gods come and go as men do and undo them.
  - AnimalMuppet 12y ago
    But the only value in "coming up" with physics is that it corresponds to the external world - that it's not just a game inside our heads. That is, I don't think you can use mankind coming up with physics to support your argument - unless your argument is that mankind's idea of God also corresponds to the reality of what exists outside our heads.
    - aikah 12y ago
      My point is mankind can come up with powerful ideas. > unless your argument is that mankind's idea of God also corresponds to the reality of what exists outside our heads But all men do not agree on what God is at first place, or whether he exists or not. It doesn't make the idea of god less powerful(that's my point), however if you define "reality" as what men can experience, no men has ever experienced "God" and created a reproducible experiment of God. Therefore "God" cannot be a reality today. God is a philosophical question.
      - AnimalMuppet 12y ago
        Yes and no. Yes, you can't run an experiment to prove God to five sigma certainty. No, in that God is not (just) a philosophical question. There is a reality which exists. Either there is a God who actually exists in reality, or there is not. It is a question of what is the truth about what actually exists, not just a philosophical question.
        aikah 12y ago
        > Either there is a God who actually exists in reality Well, which/what "God"? the definition of God itself is purely a philosophical question. You can't ask yourself whether "God" exists or not, until you define precisely what you mean by "God". And men do not agree at all on what "God" is, even those that claim they follow the same religion. That's why you can't ask "science" to answer a question on a matter that has no formal definition to begin with. God is an idea first and foremost. a vague idea at best that bear no exact definition, thus a philosophy.
        AnimalMuppet 12y ago
        I come at this the other way around. If there is a God that exists in reality, then that God is the relevant one. If there is no God that exists in reality, then none of them are relevant. Again, the driving question is what exists in reality, not philosophy.
dimillian 12y ago
Is this backed? I mean, this is still and will forever be a debate, do we discovered or invented mathematics?
- phkahler 12y ago
  Did the Mandelbrot set exist prior to someone creating an image of it? I think so, so it was discovered. We're so used to fitting curves to data and things like that, that we think of mathematical objects as constructs rather than discoveries. By looking at something more complex like a fractal, it should be easier to see it the other way round.
- VLM 12y ago
  Geography analogy, some people can discover a continent for some bunch of people, but the only thing you can invent or create is a map. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation
  - taeric 12y ago
    But would you instead argue that you discovered how to draw the map?

We didn't create mathematics, we discovered it.

by heed 12y ago

We didn't create mathematics, we discovered it.

Kinda both, right? Mathematics is a human-created formalism inspired by, and intended to explain, the natural world. Mathematics is not the real world; it's a map, not the territory. But of course it's not surprising if a map resembles the real world...

BrainInAJar 12y ago

we created mathematics as a logical progression from axioms. We invented the axioms (they're about whatever seems "reasonable" to us) and they're the structure on which we build everything in mathematics.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

amelius 12y ago

"God made the integers, all else is the work of man." -- Leopold Kronecker

aikah 12y ago
If mankind could come up with Math and Physics, it's more likely than mankind made up God too. The modern monotheist God isn't that old ,roughly 3000 years. "History" itself is between 10,000 and 20,000 year old. Gods come and go as men do and undo them.
- AnimalMuppet 12y ago
  But the only value in "coming up" with physics is that it corresponds to the external world - that it's not just a game inside our heads. That is, I don't think you can use mankind coming up with physics to support your argument - unless your argument is that mankind's idea of God also corresponds to the reality of what exists outside our heads.
  - aikah 12y ago
    My point is mankind can come up with powerful ideas. > unless your argument is that mankind's idea of God also corresponds to the reality of what exists outside our heads But all men do not agree on what God is at first place, or whether he exists or not. It doesn't make the idea of god less powerful(that's my point), however if you define "reality" as what men can experience, no men has ever experienced "God" and created a reproducible experiment of God. Therefore "God" cannot be a reality today. God is a philosophical question.
    - AnimalMuppet 12y ago
      Yes and no. Yes, you can't run an experiment to prove God to five sigma certainty. No, in that God is not (just) a philosophical question. There is a reality which exists. Either there is a God who actually exists in reality, or there is not. It is a question of what is the truth about what actually exists, not just a philosophical question.
      - aikah 12y ago
        > Either there is a God who actually exists in reality Well, which/what "God"? the definition of God itself is purely a philosophical question. You can't ask yourself whether "God" exists or not, until you define precisely what you mean by "God". And men do not agree at all on what "God" is, even those that claim they follow the same religion. That's why you can't ask "science" to answer a question on a matter that has no formal definition to begin with. God is an idea first and foremost. a vague idea at best that bear no exact definition, thus a philosophy.
        AnimalMuppet 12y ago
        I come at this the other way around. If there is a God that exists in reality, then that God is the relevant one. If there is no God that exists in reality, then none of them are relevant. Again, the driving question is what exists in reality, not philosophy.

dimillian 12y ago

Is this backed? I mean, this is still and will forever be a debate, do we discovered or invented mathematics?

phkahler 12y ago
Did the Mandelbrot set exist prior to someone creating an image of it? I think so, so it was discovered. We're so used to fitting curves to data and things like that, that we think of mathematical objects as constructs rather than discoveries. By looking at something more complex like a fractal, it should be easier to see it the other way round.
VLM 12y ago
Geography analogy, some people can discover a continent for some bunch of people, but the only thing you can invent or create is a map. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation
- taeric 12y ago
  But would you instead argue that you discovered how to draw the map?