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I'm a developer in SF, and I moved here 2 1/2 years ago on a relocation package from a startup. Immediately I realized that I would be the only parent in the o

I'm a developer in SF, and I moved here 2 1/2 years ago on a relocation package from a startup. Immediately I realized that I would be the only parent in the office (there was one other remote worker with kids) once my wife and I decided to have a child. And sure enough that's what happened. I actually lost my job there (for unrelated reasons) and it was an enormous relief to be out of that culture. In addition to children, I am religious and have obligations to my church, which were frowned upon (tacitly) by my coworkers. Nobody said anything, but I was the only one leaving work at 3 on Good Friday and 5:30 every Wednesday so I could be at church. In hindsight I can see what I couldn't see before - the article is right in suggesting that single, young people are unencumbered by obligations. But it misses the point that we choose what obligations to tie ourselves to around the age that most people are starting at these startups - I chose wife, children, church. They're choosing company, work, and technology. It's not that different in principle, but it's a huge behavioral difference.

EliRivers 12y ago
Nobody said anything, but I was the only one leaving work at 3 on Good Friday and 5:30 every Wednesday so I could be at church. 5:30, sure, that's end of day anyway, but if I zipped out at 3 to engage in my social hobby, I'd expect some frowning too.
- Chinjut 12y ago
  A world where we frown upon anyone having anything important to them outside of their employer is a sad world to live in indeed.
  - EliRivers 12y ago
    Which is entirely the whole point of the article; welcome to the US tech scene :)
  - EC1 12y ago
    It's more about him getting special privilege to leave early because of his obligation to his delusion. If he gets time off, shouldn't others?
    - dang 12y ago
      > because of his obligation to his delusion Religious flamewars are not welcome on Hacker News.
      - EC1 12y ago
        Not starting a flamewar. If you can't empirically prove it exists then it resides in your head, which is a delusion. Who's to say I can't get days off because my own flavour of delusion I concocted? That would just be branded mental illness, but since everyone is "in on it", it's OK.
        nostrademons 12y ago
        By that standard, love, beauty, great products, and yes, money are all delusions too. So why are you even working? All I see are bits and bytes in a bank's computer system; why do you care so much about them? I'd hope that we have the empathy to recognize that people should be able to indulge the things that are special to them. That's what celebrating individuality is about, right? As long as they're also productive in the things that matter to us, it harms nobody.
        EC1 12y ago
        Sorry but I believe it is mental illness.
        nostrademons 12y ago
        That belief exists only in your head; why should I care about your delusions? (Sorry I'm giving you a hard time, but I'm trying to make a point that took me a long time to learn but drastically improved my effectiveness as a human being. Things that exist inside other peoples' heads are every bit as real as things that exist in your head. And as far as can be empirically proven, everything exists inside somebody's head. We have this notion of objective reality because it's convenient to have it and it works most of the time - as Peter Norvig says, "All models are wrong, but some are useful." But objective reality itself exists inside our heads, and when - empirically - clinging to reality gets worse outcomes than bending reality to accommodate the people we interact with, why bother?)
- maudineormsby 12y ago
  I took PTO for it. It's not like I walked out for no reason. Also, we were working 60+ hour weeks.
  - EliRivers 12y ago
    Well then they can get bent. That's what time off is for. The way you said it, I thought you were just zipping out early.
  - blakeja 12y ago
    You had a take PTO to leave early while working 60 hours in a week? That is absolutely ridiculous.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- oalders 12y ago
  Religion == Hobby? (In Canada, Good Friday was a holiday, so I had the day off anyway). And really, who cares if you leave at 3 pm once/year regardless of the reason? It should be a non-issue.
  - EliRivers 12y ago
    Religion == Hobby? That is how (many of) us foreign atheists look at it. It's self-evidently a social hobby with some funny rules. It gets special treatment because the practitioners of this hobby get significantly more aggressive about it than the people playing collectable card games.
    - hippich 12y ago
      while i understand where you are coming from, religions can not be compared directly to collectable card games because of social impact. i begun to get interested in religions recently (i am, what I would call, atheist) from that standpoint and find many benefits it bring. Just suggesting not to throw it in one bucket with card games and may be research it more.
      - EliRivers 12y ago
        I disagree. They can be compared to collectable card games. In this case, you have compared them and you have found in your comparison that many (but by no means all) religions have a bigger social impact than card games.
    - Apocryphon 12y ago
      Religion is a social institution, it's connected to culture. Should people not get paid days off if it's in their culture to attend funerals or weddings of family members? Where do you draw the line between hobby and culture?
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - 12y ago
- x0x0 12y ago
  This has been my experience, too. I want to leave early Fridays to get a head start on the commute to Tahoe during ski season, and it's generally not acceptable. (2 stories down) Why can't we hire developers? There's a developer shortage! Why do people hit mid 30s and leave sf? What are slacking engineers doing when I'm not watching them? If I can't supervise them coding, how do I know they aren't fucking off? edit: No fucking way can you leave early during the week, but if shit goes bust on the weekend, all hands on deck and no comp time. Aren't startups fun?
- greggyb 12y ago
  1) Religion is a protected class. 2) Good Friday comes once a year.
- ktsmith 12y ago
  Good Friday is one day a year, who doesn't take off early at least one day a year for something. It could be a dentist appointment or to pick a vehicle up from a mechanic before they close, or simply to go see a movie. I wouldn't even blink if someone left early for a religious holiday, a fishing trip, or because they just needed to get out of the office. If it's not impacting their work who cares.
- emodendroket 12y ago
  Good Friday comes around once a year. It's not like he's taking off at 3:00 every Friday.
x0x0 12y ago
In my experience, leaving sf and working in the valley proper meant having far more coworkers with families. They tend to be older -- 30s to 40s rather than mid 20s. In turn, they tend to be much better about not fucking around in the office: they come in, work, then leave. Which is a much better cultural fit for me, and it sounds like for you. There's lots of places where working 40-45 hours per week while being productive in the office is part of the culture. Just not in sf.
- maudineormsby 12y ago
  I actually work in SF now at a very family friendly company (Tapjoy). That is probably because 1/2 the engineering team is located in Boston.
- mahyarm 12y ago
  I agree with this. I work in a mountain view startup, and it's mostly people with young families here, with varying degrees of religiousness.
notsony 12y ago
Notice how there's nothing about family in this article about Reddit's hiring practices. It's pretty much the same at all start-ups, they just want fresh meat to push into the grinder. > Reddit CEO Ellen Pao "has passed on hiring candidates who don’t embrace her priority of building a gender-balanced and multiracial team"[1] [1] https://archive.today/y6PJD#selection-1567.0-1570.0 https://archive.today/y6PJD#selection-1567.0-1570.0
cesarbs 12y ago
My experience regarding my religion hasn't been very happy so far too. Because of my religion, I avoid working from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday (the 7th day Sabbath). I do work if something went bad and people will be blocked because of me, but that's an exception. I always try to come clear about this with any new team or manager, but I've never had a very understanding response from that. Mostly people will not say anything, but I can tell from their faces they're not happy about my strict non-availability at that time. My current team has started doing deployments on Saturdays. That was imposed without anyone being consulted on it, which I found very disappointing. I wish religious considerations were taken into account in the workplace, but since so many people in tech are so removed from religious knowledge of any kind, they probably don't even know there are religions where working on a specific day of the week is not allowed.
- hackerboos 12y ago
  I wouldn't want to work somewhere that expected me to be on the job between those times unless of course I was contracted to work weekends. I'm not religious in the slightest.

EliRivers 12y ago

Nobody said anything, but I was the only one leaving work at 3 on Good Friday and 5:30 every Wednesday so I could be at church. 5:30, sure, that's end of day anyway, but if I zipped out at 3 to engage in my social hobby, I'd expect some frowning too.

Chinjut 12y ago
A world where we frown upon anyone having anything important to them outside of their employer is a sad world to live in indeed.
- EliRivers 12y ago
  Which is entirely the whole point of the article; welcome to the US tech scene :)
- EC1 12y ago
  It's more about him getting special privilege to leave early because of his obligation to his delusion. If he gets time off, shouldn't others?
  - dang 12y ago
    > because of his obligation to his delusion Religious flamewars are not welcome on Hacker News.
    - EC1 12y ago
      Not starting a flamewar. If you can't empirically prove it exists then it resides in your head, which is a delusion. Who's to say I can't get days off because my own flavour of delusion I concocted? That would just be branded mental illness, but since everyone is "in on it", it's OK.
      - nostrademons 12y ago
        By that standard, love, beauty, great products, and yes, money are all delusions too. So why are you even working? All I see are bits and bytes in a bank's computer system; why do you care so much about them? I'd hope that we have the empathy to recognize that people should be able to indulge the things that are special to them. That's what celebrating individuality is about, right? As long as they're also productive in the things that matter to us, it harms nobody.
        EC1 12y ago
        Sorry but I believe it is mental illness.
        nostrademons 12y ago
        That belief exists only in your head; why should I care about your delusions? (Sorry I'm giving you a hard time, but I'm trying to make a point that took me a long time to learn but drastically improved my effectiveness as a human being. Things that exist inside other peoples' heads are every bit as real as things that exist in your head. And as far as can be empirically proven, everything exists inside somebody's head. We have this notion of objective reality because it's convenient to have it and it works most of the time - as Peter Norvig says, "All models are wrong, but some are useful." But objective reality itself exists inside our heads, and when - empirically - clinging to reality gets worse outcomes than bending reality to accommodate the people we interact with, why bother?)
maudineormsby 12y ago
I took PTO for it. It's not like I walked out for no reason. Also, we were working 60+ hour weeks.
- EliRivers 12y ago
  Well then they can get bent. That's what time off is for. The way you said it, I thought you were just zipping out early.
- blakeja 12y ago
  You had a take PTO to leave early while working 60 hours in a week? That is absolutely ridiculous.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
oalders 12y ago
Religion == Hobby? (In Canada, Good Friday was a holiday, so I had the day off anyway). And really, who cares if you leave at 3 pm once/year regardless of the reason? It should be a non-issue.
- EliRivers 12y ago
  Religion == Hobby? That is how (many of) us foreign atheists look at it. It's self-evidently a social hobby with some funny rules. It gets special treatment because the practitioners of this hobby get significantly more aggressive about it than the people playing collectable card games.
  - hippich 12y ago
    while i understand where you are coming from, religions can not be compared directly to collectable card games because of social impact. i begun to get interested in religions recently (i am, what I would call, atheist) from that standpoint and find many benefits it bring. Just suggesting not to throw it in one bucket with card games and may be research it more.
    - EliRivers 12y ago
      I disagree. They can be compared to collectable card games. In this case, you have compared them and you have found in your comparison that many (but by no means all) religions have a bigger social impact than card games.
  - Apocryphon 12y ago
    Religion is a social institution, it's connected to culture. Should people not get paid days off if it's in their culture to attend funerals or weddings of family members? Where do you draw the line between hobby and culture?
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - 12y ago
x0x0 12y ago
This has been my experience, too. I want to leave early Fridays to get a head start on the commute to Tahoe during ski season, and it's generally not acceptable. (2 stories down) Why can't we hire developers? There's a developer shortage! Why do people hit mid 30s and leave sf? What are slacking engineers doing when I'm not watching them? If I can't supervise them coding, how do I know they aren't fucking off? edit: No fucking way can you leave early during the week, but if shit goes bust on the weekend, all hands on deck and no comp time. Aren't startups fun?
greggyb 12y ago
1) Religion is a protected class. 2) Good Friday comes once a year.
ktsmith 12y ago
Good Friday is one day a year, who doesn't take off early at least one day a year for something. It could be a dentist appointment or to pick a vehicle up from a mechanic before they close, or simply to go see a movie. I wouldn't even blink if someone left early for a religious holiday, a fishing trip, or because they just needed to get out of the office. If it's not impacting their work who cares.
emodendroket 12y ago
Good Friday comes around once a year. It's not like he's taking off at 3:00 every Friday.

x0x0 12y ago

In my experience, leaving sf and working in the valley proper meant having far more coworkers with families. They tend to be older -- 30s to 40s rather than mid 20s. In turn, they tend to be much better about not fucking around in the office: they come in, work, then leave. Which is a much better cultural fit for me, and it sounds like for you. There's lots of places where working 40-45 hours per week while being productive in the office is part of the culture. Just not in sf.

maudineormsby 12y ago
I actually work in SF now at a very family friendly company (Tapjoy). That is probably because 1/2 the engineering team is located in Boston.
mahyarm 12y ago
I agree with this. I work in a mountain view startup, and it's mostly people with young families here, with varying degrees of religiousness.

notsony 12y ago

Notice how there's nothing about family in this article about Reddit's hiring practices. It's pretty much the same at all start-ups, they just want fresh meat to push into the grinder. > Reddit CEO Ellen Pao "has passed on hiring candidates who don’t embrace her priority of building a gender-balanced and multiracial team"[1] [1] https://archive.today/y6PJD#selection-1567.0-1570.0 https://archive.today/y6PJD#selection-1567.0-1570.0

cesarbs 12y ago

My experience regarding my religion hasn't been very happy so far too. Because of my religion, I avoid working from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday (the 7th day Sabbath). I do work if something went bad and people will be blocked because of me, but that's an exception. I always try to come clear about this with any new team or manager, but I've never had a very understanding response from that. Mostly people will not say anything, but I can tell from their faces they're not happy about my strict non-availability at that time. My current team has started doing deployments on Saturdays. That was imposed without anyone being consulted on it, which I found very disappointing. I wish religious considerations were taken into account in the workplace, but since so many people in tech are so removed from religious knowledge of any kind, they probably don't even know there are religions where working on a specific day of the week is not allowed.

hackerboos 12y ago
I wouldn't want to work somewhere that expected me to be on the job between those times unless of course I was contracted to work weekends. I'm not religious in the slightest.