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Likely as a direct response to the hype of this article (a few thousand comments in the related reddit thread), Elon tweeted: Battery "breakthroughs" need

Likely as a direct response to the hype of this article (a few thousand comments in the related reddit thread), Elon tweeted: Battery "breakthroughs" need to state power *and* energy density (not the same thing), plus how long they last. They usually fail on energy. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/585185843649716225 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/585185843649716225

marcosdumay 12y ago
Stating the all the qualities is a good thing. But don't think all three must be good. Any two are enough to make a very successful battery.
ChuckMcM 12y ago
Exactly. Energy density is a real bugaboo. Lemons with zinc in them are really economic and safe batteries, you can cut them, mash them, and literally make lemonade out of them. They grow on trees and just simple to make zinc strips. Except they can't power an LED for longer than about a minute. Admittedly they are not rechargable. Which is not to slam the investigation into new (or rediscovered) battery chemistries. Just that the article goes out of its way to paint this as a huge break through, which it really isn't.
- stcredzero 12y ago
  They grow on trees and just simple to make zinc strips. Except they can't power an LED for longer than about a minute. Admittedly they are not rechargable. Electrodes can literally be had for pennies!
dogma1138 12y ago
Or at least state the voltage of each cell, if it's going to be 1.2v per cell (replacing AA/AAA batteries) it's hardly something that can ever replace current LiX batteries in consumer electronics.
- danmaz74 12y ago
  The article states the voltage to be 2v.
weland 12y ago
It's important to note, though, that this kind of breakthrough is hardly the kind of invention that Musk is interested in. The world of batteries doesn't revolve around Elon and Tesla. This is sort of a big deal for those of us who design small electronic devices, not electric cars. Not having to factor in the potential fire hazard of a rechargeable battery for a keychain that the user has in his pocket or thrown in her purse or luggage is pretty useful -- and many such devices are thrown away along with their batteries, making them even bigger an environmental problem than they already are. Even if these devices offer no improvement in terms of energy density, they're still a pretty big deal. It's also worth remembering that Li-Ion and even Li-Po batteries weren't necessarily stellar in terms of energy density when they were discovered, either -- they reached their current status through quite some industrial development. It's also helpful if they can really stay steady at 2V (before the discharge cycle goes down abruptly), that would simplify 1.5V designs a lot, and help drive the space (and price!) further down.
- algirau 12y ago
  The global energy storage market is and will continue to be driven by electric vehicles (no pun intended!) and consumer electronics. For these applications a faster charge/discharge is nice to have, a non-flammable material is nice to have but a high energy density is a MUST HAVE which Aluminum-ions don't. My interpretation of a big deal is relative to the number of people it will positively influence. I wouldn't consider this a big deal, and in fact have heard the same claim at least once per month (ex. Titanium dioxide nanotube batteries http://www.gizmag.com/quick-charge-li-ion-battery/34347/ http://www.gizmag.com/quick-charge-li-ion-battery/34347/).
  - weland 12y ago
    The last time I read about this, it was expected that, at one point, in 2020 or so, electrical vehicle batteries are finally going to become a relatively important component of the battery market. There's a lot of money being poured into it because a lot of people are trying to move towards electric vehicles, but in terms of actual numbers being produced, the EVBs are dwarfed even by regular car batteries. Of course, EVBs are incredibly important, especially from an R&D perspective, but I don't think the market is being driven my them. My information may be a little out of date though. As for consumer electronics, it's worth remembering that there are probably thousands of coin-cell operated keychains for every smartphone whose energy density capacity is not being satisfied by our current technology. There are a lot of consumer electronic devices for which current battery technology is OK -- better density would be an improvement, as it is everywhere, but it's no longer the hog it is for smartphones. For those, ease of recycling, lack of fire hazard and the slightly simpler circuitry really are important.

marcosdumay 12y ago

Stating the all the qualities is a good thing. But don't think all three must be good. Any two are enough to make a very successful battery.

ChuckMcM 12y ago

Exactly. Energy density is a real bugaboo. Lemons with zinc in them are really economic and safe batteries, you can cut them, mash them, and literally make lemonade out of them. They grow on trees and just simple to make zinc strips. Except they can't power an LED for longer than about a minute. Admittedly they are not rechargable. Which is not to slam the investigation into new (or rediscovered) battery chemistries. Just that the article goes out of its way to paint this as a huge break through, which it really isn't.

stcredzero 12y ago
They grow on trees and just simple to make zinc strips. Except they can't power an LED for longer than about a minute. Admittedly they are not rechargable. Electrodes can literally be had for pennies!

dogma1138 12y ago

Or at least state the voltage of each cell, if it's going to be 1.2v per cell (replacing AA/AAA batteries) it's hardly something that can ever replace current LiX batteries in consumer electronics.

danmaz74 12y ago
The article states the voltage to be 2v.

weland 12y ago

It's important to note, though, that this kind of breakthrough is hardly the kind of invention that Musk is interested in. The world of batteries doesn't revolve around Elon and Tesla. This is sort of a big deal for those of us who design small electronic devices, not electric cars. Not having to factor in the potential fire hazard of a rechargeable battery for a keychain that the user has in his pocket or thrown in her purse or luggage is pretty useful -- and many such devices are thrown away along with their batteries, making them even bigger an environmental problem than they already are. Even if these devices offer no improvement in terms of energy density, they're still a pretty big deal. It's also worth remembering that Li-Ion and even Li-Po batteries weren't necessarily stellar in terms of energy density when they were discovered, either -- they reached their current status through quite some industrial development. It's also helpful if they can really stay steady at 2V (before the discharge cycle goes down abruptly), that would simplify 1.5V designs a lot, and help drive the space (and price!) further down.

algirau 12y ago
The global energy storage market is and will continue to be driven by electric vehicles (no pun intended!) and consumer electronics. For these applications a faster charge/discharge is nice to have, a non-flammable material is nice to have but a high energy density is a MUST HAVE which Aluminum-ions don't. My interpretation of a big deal is relative to the number of people it will positively influence. I wouldn't consider this a big deal, and in fact have heard the same claim at least once per month (ex. Titanium dioxide nanotube batteries http://www.gizmag.com/quick-charge-li-ion-battery/34347/ http://www.gizmag.com/quick-charge-li-ion-battery/34347/).
- weland 12y ago
  The last time I read about this, it was expected that, at one point, in 2020 or so, electrical vehicle batteries are finally going to become a relatively important component of the battery market. There's a lot of money being poured into it because a lot of people are trying to move towards electric vehicles, but in terms of actual numbers being produced, the EVBs are dwarfed even by regular car batteries. Of course, EVBs are incredibly important, especially from an R&D perspective, but I don't think the market is being driven my them. My information may be a little out of date though. As for consumer electronics, it's worth remembering that there are probably thousands of coin-cell operated keychains for every smartphone whose energy density capacity is not being satisfied by our current technology. There are a lot of consumer electronic devices for which current battery technology is OK -- better density would be an improvement, as it is everywhere, but it's no longer the hog it is for smartphones. For those, ease of recycling, lack of fire hazard and the slightly simpler circuitry really are important.