8 ms·

Seeing them cover this thing up is a hideous moment in our history: https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz. Shameful that something so har

by rglover 12y ago

Seeing them cover this thing up is a hideous moment in our history: https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz. Shameful that something so harmless is immediately covered up (quite literally) because it challenges the state. The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks.

borgia 12y ago
>The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks. It really is. The facade of democracy is very quickly being peeled back to reveal something utterly terrifying. The response from the people has been the most disappointing and depressing thing though. The random sampling in NYC, of all places in the US, by Oliver's show was a brutal reminder of the mindset of the average person there.
- hueving 12y ago
  >The facade of democracy >The response from the people has been the most disappointing Which one is it? Is it that democracy has failed, or is it that the majority don't care about this particular topic?
  - herbig 12y ago
    These two things are not mutually exclusive.
  - ryan_j_naughton 12y ago
    You are supposing that they are separate/independent failings when in reality they are linked. The way the government and the media demonized Snowden and fed the public misinformation was designed to get people to not care about this issue. By attacking Snowden and misrepresenting the facts (such as congressmen claiming he was certainly working for foreign intelligence agencies), they muddied the waters and left people confused and consequently apathetic.
- Someone1234 12y ago
  Ignoring the republic/democratic state distinction, the US's democratic status has always been weak due to FPTP (ditto with the UK). It is essentially a system designed to keep the majority from even running and to keep the minority opinion silent. If the US (or UK) cared at all about democracy like they always claim they'd move to something better (e.g. Open list, party list, full on proportional representation, or a number of other alternatives). Heck even run off voting (i.e. multiple votes) in FPTP is superior like the Alternative Vote. But instead we have FPTP, and why? So we have this revolving door of "sameness" and monied politicians. Essentially bribery and corruption exist in the West, they're just completely legal and out in the open. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_voting_systems_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_voting_systems_by_cou... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party-list_proportional_representation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party-list_proportional_repres... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting
  - spiritplumber 12y ago
    FPTP = First Past The Post, for people whose first language isn't English. Took me a bit to figure out :)
    - Dylan16807 12y ago
      Also for people whose first language is English.
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    The National Front will be part of the government in France. Is that what we should strive for?
    - borgia 12y ago
      >The National Front will be part of the government in France. Is that what we should strive for? Yes. People should be free to elect whoever they want to represent them. I'm not a National Front supporter, but they clearly have support and why should they be withheld from running in a free election simply because others dislike their campaign platform? The idea of "Only X parties that conform to Y beliefs should be able to run/hold government" is a very dangerous one. I would rather see a world full of governments made up of mixed up groups of representatives than that which the US currently has - two sides of the same coin being flipped every 4 years with a very small number of families establishing themselves as political dynasties. There's ~350m people in the US. There is no way the diversity of views in that 350m people is represented in the two parties that hold power there. Similarly, there are 350m people and yet those who hold the office of President are, and have been for decades, close relatives of former Presidents. 2016 is just around the corner and it's looking like the US may well have another Clinton or Bush in office. How the hell is that right? A nation's power structure should be free to change as the people want it to. The government is supposed to represent and serve the people, not the other way around. We're seeing former outlying political entities in Europe experiencing a large increase in support - UKIP in the UK, Syriza in Greece, Sinn Fein in Ireland, the separatists in Spain, etc. - because a hell of a lot of people feel the ruling entities there are no longer representing the people and are demanding change. That is something that should be welcomed and embraced. A nation should be free to make its own choices and deal with the consequences, not be shackled to approved political ideologies.
- trendroid 12y ago
  Not sure why HNers were so disappointed with people's response to Snowden in NYC. Isn't it easily possible that out of 200 people they questioned, only 10 didn't know about him but they of course edited out 190? That's how these comedy news shows work.
yodsanklai 12y ago
> Shameful that something so harmless is immediately covered up (quite literally) because it challenges the state. Playing devil's advocate here, but would have they done differently with an other bust? maybe it's just forbidden to put a statue in a park without authorization.
- rglover 12y ago
  Good question. Actually, I'd love to see what happens if someone takes the same exact concept but instead of Snowden or a political figure, they take the bust of Mickey Mouse. Bonus points for a Vine of them covering it up while kids cry in the background.
  - anon808 12y ago
    Or how about an illegal bust of George Washington.
    - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
      The terrorist?
      - krapp 12y ago
        freedom fighter.
        fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        I guess you're not British.
        krapp 12y ago
        That Tree of Liberty wasn't going to water itself...
    - pharke 12y ago
hullo 12y ago
If you'd done the same thing with a bust of your mother 10 years ago, they'd have covered it up as well. Try the same thing (with Snowden, or your mother) in France or China, and see what happens. Just because they parks department is doing their job doesn't mean democracy is ebbing.
- anon808 12y ago
  Or maybe they would've removed it, and until they did left it uncovered. Neither of us know what they would've done. Not sure what China or France doing things has to do with how we do things in the US.
  - hullo 12y ago
    Well I can tell you 15 years ago Giuliani would have been up there with a sledgehammer himself taking it down, holding a press conference, and vowing the harshest consequences possible once the perpetrators were tracked down. By that scale can we say that the state of democracy in the US is actually greatly advanced?
    - aceperry 12y ago
      I agree. The response depends on who is in charge. Maybe in a place like Berkeley, birthplace of the free speech movement, they might consider keeping the statue there.
  - pandybar 12y ago
    Don't worry too much, U.S. couldn't become China in one day just like you couldn't build Rome in a day. I notice this little detail in the Tiananmen Square protest in 1989, five years after 1984. After the students build the parts of the statute named Goddess of Democracy, the state security bureau declared that any truck drivers helping them would lose their license.[0] At first this amused me a little bit, seeing how pathetic the security bureau was, but soon I feel so frustrated and disappointed be cause it hasn't been any better about politics after 26 years. Of course they have learned how to frame citizen under the coat of "Rule by law". Government without its chain is just like the Smaug. [0] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Democracy http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Democracy
Shivetya 12y ago
just start a fund or such to plaster billboards all over with his image
seasoup 12y ago
I don't think it's scary or represents the US changing in someway, but this vine is a great summary of the entire Snowden affair after he released the leaks.
rosser 12y ago
So it would be shameful of me to cover up your political speech when it's inflicted upon my property without my permission? Look, I emphatically believe in what Snowden did (though I may have some quibbles with his methods, his reasons were exemplary). I don't think that justifies what amounts to glorified — if tastefully done, and in keeping with the aesthetics of the monument — vandalism. This is a war memorial. How might it feel to those who have lost loved ones in one of this country's innumerable wars, to have the monument to their loss, their sacrifice, appropriated for someone else's speech?
- fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
  Your property? The monument is no more yours than it is mine. And since you asked, it would feel like someone understood the relative importance of things. It would feel like they hadn't died in vain, for an unappreciative, lethargic citizenry. >appropriated for someone else's ends? Appropriated for the same ends for which the original memorial was commemorating. The ends are the same. Let's also include some perspective. The monument does not appear to be irreparably harmed. So, vandalism, technically, but definitely not comparable to the Sack of Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_%28455%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_%28455%29
  - pvaldes 12y ago
    To change the point of view of a monument or previous piece of art in a easily reversible way is not vandalism in fact. Is art. Art is not a democratic thing at all. This is the same that Banksy does. Is also the "monna-lissa with moustache" from Duchamp, the picasso's versions of velazquez paintings, and the impresionists showing his pictures in the "salon des refusees". People changed his point of view for better and just learned to deal with it. What was claimed as inaceptable vandalism and breaking of the rules yesterday, is just culture today. More interestingly, the success of a work of art is not linked to the objet permanence. If damaged o destroyed will spawn more controversy and will spread the idea (the real work of art), probably spawning a miriad of "photoshop restaurations" on internet. A very smart move.
- pharke 12y ago
spiritplumber 12y ago
In my hometown there's a mausoleum to a WW1 general that was built in Fascist times. http://www.ecosistemaverbano.org/scheda.html?id=5955 http://www.ecosistemaverbano.org/scheda.html?id=5955 The roof is held up by statues of service members from various branches... and a Blackshirt. Every once in a while that gets covered (to signify anti fascism) or uncovered (to signify respect for the artist's intention). It used to be various local administration officials covering and uncovering it. Now it's just random people putting up tarps at night or cutting them down. The town's official policy at this point is "we ran out of tarps in the early 1990s and don't care anymore". I wonder how long that tarp will stay :)
cryoshon 12y ago
Ha ha ha, the US has been scary for over a decade, and for the rest of the world, scary for many decades.
yourad_io 12y ago
It is almost funny how the "vandals" were careful, whereas the cop unceremoniously stands on the eagle while covering up the bust. No wait - "symbolic". That's the word I was looking for.

by rglover 12y ago

borgia 12y ago

>The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks. It really is. The facade of democracy is very quickly being peeled back to reveal something utterly terrifying. The response from the people has been the most disappointing and depressing thing though. The random sampling in NYC, of all places in the US, by Oliver's show was a brutal reminder of the mindset of the average person there.

hueving 12y ago
>The facade of democracy >The response from the people has been the most disappointing Which one is it? Is it that democracy has failed, or is it that the majority don't care about this particular topic?
- herbig 12y ago
  These two things are not mutually exclusive.
- ryan_j_naughton 12y ago
  You are supposing that they are separate/independent failings when in reality they are linked. The way the government and the media demonized Snowden and fed the public misinformation was designed to get people to not care about this issue. By attacking Snowden and misrepresenting the facts (such as congressmen claiming he was certainly working for foreign intelligence agencies), they muddied the waters and left people confused and consequently apathetic.
Someone1234 12y ago
Ignoring the republic/democratic state distinction, the US's democratic status has always been weak due to FPTP (ditto with the UK). It is essentially a system designed to keep the majority from even running and to keep the minority opinion silent. If the US (or UK) cared at all about democracy like they always claim they'd move to something better (e.g. Open list, party list, full on proportional representation, or a number of other alternatives). Heck even run off voting (i.e. multiple votes) in FPTP is superior like the Alternative Vote. But instead we have FPTP, and why? So we have this revolving door of "sameness" and monied politicians. Essentially bribery and corruption exist in the West, they're just completely legal and out in the open. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_voting_systems_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_voting_systems_by_cou... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party-list_proportional_representation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party-list_proportional_repres... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting
- spiritplumber 12y ago
  FPTP = First Past The Post, for people whose first language isn't English. Took me a bit to figure out :)
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    Also for people whose first language is English.
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  The National Front will be part of the government in France. Is that what we should strive for?
  - borgia 12y ago
    >The National Front will be part of the government in France. Is that what we should strive for? Yes. People should be free to elect whoever they want to represent them. I'm not a National Front supporter, but they clearly have support and why should they be withheld from running in a free election simply because others dislike their campaign platform? The idea of "Only X parties that conform to Y beliefs should be able to run/hold government" is a very dangerous one. I would rather see a world full of governments made up of mixed up groups of representatives than that which the US currently has - two sides of the same coin being flipped every 4 years with a very small number of families establishing themselves as political dynasties. There's ~350m people in the US. There is no way the diversity of views in that 350m people is represented in the two parties that hold power there. Similarly, there are 350m people and yet those who hold the office of President are, and have been for decades, close relatives of former Presidents. 2016 is just around the corner and it's looking like the US may well have another Clinton or Bush in office. How the hell is that right? A nation's power structure should be free to change as the people want it to. The government is supposed to represent and serve the people, not the other way around. We're seeing former outlying political entities in Europe experiencing a large increase in support - UKIP in the UK, Syriza in Greece, Sinn Fein in Ireland, the separatists in Spain, etc. - because a hell of a lot of people feel the ruling entities there are no longer representing the people and are demanding change. That is something that should be welcomed and embraced. A nation should be free to make its own choices and deal with the consequences, not be shackled to approved political ideologies.
trendroid 12y ago
Not sure why HNers were so disappointed with people's response to Snowden in NYC. Isn't it easily possible that out of 200 people they questioned, only 10 didn't know about him but they of course edited out 190? That's how these comedy news shows work.

yodsanklai 12y ago

> Shameful that something so harmless is immediately covered up (quite literally) because it challenges the state. Playing devil's advocate here, but would have they done differently with an other bust? maybe it's just forbidden to put a statue in a park without authorization.

rglover 12y ago
Good question. Actually, I'd love to see what happens if someone takes the same exact concept but instead of Snowden or a political figure, they take the bust of Mickey Mouse. Bonus points for a Vine of them covering it up while kids cry in the background.
- anon808 12y ago
  Or how about an illegal bust of George Washington.
  - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
    The terrorist?
    - krapp 12y ago
      freedom fighter.
      - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        I guess you're not British.
        krapp 12y ago
        That Tree of Liberty wasn't going to water itself...
  - pharke 12y ago

hullo 12y ago

If you'd done the same thing with a bust of your mother 10 years ago, they'd have covered it up as well. Try the same thing (with Snowden, or your mother) in France or China, and see what happens. Just because they parks department is doing their job doesn't mean democracy is ebbing.

anon808 12y ago
Or maybe they would've removed it, and until they did left it uncovered. Neither of us know what they would've done. Not sure what China or France doing things has to do with how we do things in the US.
- hullo 12y ago
  Well I can tell you 15 years ago Giuliani would have been up there with a sledgehammer himself taking it down, holding a press conference, and vowing the harshest consequences possible once the perpetrators were tracked down. By that scale can we say that the state of democracy in the US is actually greatly advanced?
  - aceperry 12y ago
    I agree. The response depends on who is in charge. Maybe in a place like Berkeley, birthplace of the free speech movement, they might consider keeping the statue there.
- pandybar 12y ago
  Don't worry too much, U.S. couldn't become China in one day just like you couldn't build Rome in a day. I notice this little detail in the Tiananmen Square protest in 1989, five years after 1984. After the students build the parts of the statute named Goddess of Democracy, the state security bureau declared that any truck drivers helping them would lose their license.[0] At first this amused me a little bit, seeing how pathetic the security bureau was, but soon I feel so frustrated and disappointed be cause it hasn't been any better about politics after 26 years. Of course they have learned how to frame citizen under the coat of "Rule by law". Government without its chain is just like the Smaug. [0] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Democracy http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Democracy

Shivetya 12y ago

just start a fund or such to plaster billboards all over with his image

seasoup 12y ago

I don't think it's scary or represents the US changing in someway, but this vine is a great summary of the entire Snowden affair after he released the leaks.

rosser 12y ago

So it would be shameful of me to cover up your political speech when it's inflicted upon my property without my permission? Look, I emphatically believe in what Snowden did (though I may have some quibbles with his methods, his reasons were exemplary). I don't think that justifies what amounts to glorified — if tastefully done, and in keeping with the aesthetics of the monument — vandalism. This is a war memorial. How might it feel to those who have lost loved ones in one of this country's innumerable wars, to have the monument to their loss, their sacrifice, appropriated for someone else's speech?

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
Your property? The monument is no more yours than it is mine. And since you asked, it would feel like someone understood the relative importance of things. It would feel like they hadn't died in vain, for an unappreciative, lethargic citizenry. >appropriated for someone else's ends? Appropriated for the same ends for which the original memorial was commemorating. The ends are the same. Let's also include some perspective. The monument does not appear to be irreparably harmed. So, vandalism, technically, but definitely not comparable to the Sack of Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_%28455%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_%28455%29
- pvaldes 12y ago
  To change the point of view of a monument or previous piece of art in a easily reversible way is not vandalism in fact. Is art. Art is not a democratic thing at all. This is the same that Banksy does. Is also the "monna-lissa with moustache" from Duchamp, the picasso's versions of velazquez paintings, and the impresionists showing his pictures in the "salon des refusees". People changed his point of view for better and just learned to deal with it. What was claimed as inaceptable vandalism and breaking of the rules yesterday, is just culture today. More interestingly, the success of a work of art is not linked to the objet permanence. If damaged o destroyed will spawn more controversy and will spread the idea (the real work of art), probably spawning a miriad of "photoshop restaurations" on internet. A very smart move.
pharke 12y ago

spiritplumber 12y ago

In my hometown there's a mausoleum to a WW1 general that was built in Fascist times. http://www.ecosistemaverbano.org/scheda.html?id=5955 http://www.ecosistemaverbano.org/scheda.html?id=5955 The roof is held up by statues of service members from various branches... and a Blackshirt. Every once in a while that gets covered (to signify anti fascism) or uncovered (to signify respect for the artist's intention). It used to be various local administration officials covering and uncovering it. Now it's just random people putting up tarps at night or cutting them down. The town's official policy at this point is "we ran out of tarps in the early 1990s and don't care anymore". I wonder how long that tarp will stay :)

cryoshon 12y ago

Ha ha ha, the US has been scary for over a decade, and for the rest of the world, scary for many decades.

yourad_io 12y ago

It is almost funny how the "vandals" were careful, whereas the cop unceremoniously stands on the eagle while covering up the bust. No wait - "symbolic". That's the word I was looking for.