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Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

696 points by jdi626 12y ago

pshc 12y ago
Glorious hack! I wonder how many HNers are hustling over there for a selfie right now...? EDIT: Already too late :(
borgia 12y ago
It has already been covered over with tarp and the letting removed[1]. It's a wonderful piece of work with excellent sentiment behind it. Unfortunately it doesn't suit the government and mainstream media narrative, so I'm sure the act of its erection will be decried as liberal terrorism and vandalism, the piece taken down and Snowden-related news once again brushed over. [1]http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/illegal-edward-snowden-bust-erected-atop-brooklyn-war-monume-article-1.2175004 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/illegal-edward-...
- hspak 12y ago
  I wonder how long the sculpture stood up. The two articles were only published 2 hours apart.
  - borgia 12y ago
    It looks like they put it up around 6am and it was covered over around noon. I hope, for the sake of the work that went into the piece, that it isn't destroyed.
    - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
      That's amazing. Now if only the public works department could respond to potholes that quickly.
      - jessaustin 12y ago
        Maybe we could just start spraypainting Snowden's face in and around potholes? If it worked, the general public would know Snowden only as the pothole-fixing guy. No jury would ever convict! b^)
        CalRobert 12y ago
        Actually, an approaching not entirely unlike that has been tried successfully in Russia. http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2012/09/embarrassing-pothole-caricatures-of-politicians-spur-action-to-fix-the-streets/ http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2012/09/embarrassing-pothole-c...
        CalRobert 12y ago
        Ugg. "approach". Nothing like seeing your typos the following day.
      - Someone1234 12y ago
        That is an interesting point. People here are saying (paraphrasing) "they'd take down any busk that wasn't authorised" and while I believe that to be true, it ignores the fact of just how QUICKLY this one got taken down. Less than six hours? How long does other graffiti take to be removed, days, weeks, months?
        fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        Yeah, I made my point in a snarky way, but there is definitely a political component to the swiftness of the action. It'd have been great if the job had to be submitted to a months long queue.
        genericuser 12y ago
        I think the speed graffiti, bust, or other such expression is removed is going to be more or less relative to the amount of attention something draws / is expected to draw. Or at least I heard that is how wheels go about getting oil.
    - ics 12y ago
      Unless destroying it was the only way to remove it, it would likely go to the nearest impound lot (where I believe it can actually be claimed by the owners for a fee, though that might invite other problems).
- genericuser 12y ago
  I like part of Ruth Goldstein's, one of the park conservancy founders, response in that article. While I am fairly confident that asking and trying to go through legitimate channels to get the bust put up would not of worked, what she said makes me think there are at least people who would consider it, although probably not high enough in power structures to actually get it done. “The park is such a symbol of American liberty; that’s what it’s all about, the founding principals of it,” she said. “It (the bust) is almost appropriate but inappropriate to do it (put up illegally).”
  - ta0967 12y ago
    not have worked, "founding principles".
    - genericuser 12y ago
      I am not certain that offering grammar corrections is very constructive. Also if you read the article in the parent post you would notice that your second correction should be directed at it not me, as I accurately copy pasted that quotation.
      - ta0967 12y ago
        * my comment was meant for other people reading your comment as much as it was for you. people soak up english in informal ways (such as reading stuff on the web) and someone might be led to use the wrong words. * some mistakes (and actual meanings) are obvious, others are more subtle. what else in the text conveys meaning that is different from the author's intent? * what purpose does it serve to say or write A when you meant B, outside of humor?
      - Dylan16807 12y ago
        Correcting the quote is silly, yes, but I think it's constructive to point out uses of the wrong word entirely. That's a far leap away from being ultra-picky about grammar. Though it might make more sense to use "'ve" when correcting to emphasize that it's not a spoken vs. written speech difference, it's a transcription error.
- Lerc 12y ago
  Their point about the image of the bust remains. The fact that they covered the bust with a tarp itself creates an image with a message. Consider the mentality of obscuring the bust with something that is even uglier. It is not a statement on the aesthetics of the work. It is literally saying "You may not look upon this unsanctioned idea"
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    So your theory is that they covered it up so no one will talk about Snowden? That doesn't make sense.
    - GhotiFish 12y ago
      no. His theory is that the artists wanted to create this very scene.
  - tajen 12y ago
    Correct! For me a better political statement would have been to wait for the People to remove the statue. I want to know whether enough people who care about the memory of the Prison Ship Martyrs to organize the removal compared to the memory of Snowden. If someone removes it, it's a strong political statement that the People want this. If no one removes it, then the People has chosen new heroes.
- makeitsuckless 12y ago
  It's interesting that they choose to (almost literally) deface it. They're fully in their right to remove it, but simply making it unrecognizable feels like a political act.
marcoperaza 12y ago
This is disgusting. Snowden lost any legitimacy he may have had as a whistle-blower when he started exposing the unquestionably legitimate foreign intelligence activities and capabilities of the United States. You have to be naive to think the Russians are harboring him without something in exchange: even more information about our foreign intelligence activities. This traitor's bust does not belong among the remains of fallen heroes.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - adamnemecek 12y ago
    Your opinion is above all misinformed.
    - leswool 12y ago
      Seeking 3D printer blueprints/specs for replication of bust for "artist purposes"... Lev Woolf at gmail
  - Phlarp 12y ago
    Sad to see that replying to yourself in order to whine about downvotes (and then deleting it) has made its way to hackernews from reddit.
    - vectorpush 12y ago
      And unique to HN is the constant need to chide reddit in a condescending effort to appear superior, as if to suggest that the quality of discussion on this site is substantially superior to reddit. Unfortunately, short of the front-page subreddits, it's really not much different. Hell, on any given day, the discussions in /r/programming are much more in the spirit of "hacker news" than half of the stuff that gets voted to the top of HN.
- majke 12y ago
  Sir. Edward does not expose anything. It's the journalists that choose the material. He made it very explicit from the start. > You have to be naive to think the Russians are harboring him Can you please provide a source? The quality of this comment is something I'd expect from a 50 cent army. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades [EDIT] Softened language.
Theodores 12y ago
Let's put this in some historical light. The British government abolished the slave trade in 1833 - 1838 and this was a big step (even if other schemes were in effect slavery). Only one monument was erected to commemorate this. Protagonists, e.g. William Wilberforce have statues however the event itself - abolition - only has this one memorial. It was built by a wealthy Quaker and served as the entrance arch for his mansion. Step forward 150 years and this might be the one and only memorial 'made at the time' to the work of our hero.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
oldgun 12y ago
This is the hacker spirit.
teammatters 12y ago
Why is Edward Snowden a hero? He divulged sensitive U.S. documents and information that now bad actors use to exploit/harm the US. Further, he knew what he was doing was against the law and ran as far away as he could to avoid facing the consequences(Bradley, now Chelsea Manning as far as I know didnt run like a coward). Now he's a pawn between Russia and US relations. The information he divulged that we are being watched by our govt. was nothing knew. It was information publicly known back in 2006. I don't get why he is so exalted?!?
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  He disclosed evidence of wrongdoing and illegal activity by the NSA, making him a whistleblower. He ran away to avoid the extrajudicial punishment Chelsea Manning experienced - years of pre-trial solitary confinement with such privileges as clothing being arbitrarily revoked. You can't say that the information he divulged was both known and sensitive without being pretty laughable, by the way.
  - rhino369 12y ago
    >He disclosed evidence of wrongdoing and illegal activity by the NSA, making him a whistleblower. The only illegal things he disclosed was that some NSA agents/employees illegally used their tools to track ex-gfs and stuff. All the rest is completely legal. The country had a public debating about warrantless wiretaps and congress wrote laws about it. The NSA follows those laws. He released the information because he had a political problem with them. That cannot be allowed. I wouldn't call it traitorous, but it was a massive violation of state secrecy laws. Though, some of his actions since are at least flirting with traitorous behavior. He has released information about US spying on other governments. What the fuck did he think the NSA did? That was its raison d'être.
    - ceejayoz 12y ago
      > All the rest is completely legal. That's a bold assertion not borne out by the facts. Examples: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/judge-deals-nsa-defeat-bulk-phone-collection http://bigstory.ap.org/article/judge-deals-nsa-defeat-bulk-p... http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/independent-review-board-says-nsa-phone-data-program-is-illegal-and-should-end/2014/01/22/4cebd470-83dd-11e3-bbe5-6a2a3141e3a9_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/indepe...
meritt 12y ago
We need a model of the bust so we can start printing these en masse on our 3D printers.
- bsimpson 12y ago
  It will get even better when Diane Feinstein orders us to take the model off the Internet.
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    Or when she orders the death penalty for anyone who prints it! /s
    - yellowapple 12y ago
      I don't think a sarcasm tag applies here; I wouldn't hold such a thing above the likes of her.
      - happyscrappy 12y ago
        If you dislike Feinstein you should hope she tries something like that, she would be out on her ear before noon.
  - sigzero 12y ago
    SENATOR Feinstein. Please, she earned it.
    - pgeorgi 12y ago
      Like Chancellor Palpatine.
- eadz 12y ago
  This software may help. http://www.123dapp.com/catch http://www.123dapp.com/catch "Turn ordinary photos into extraordinary 3D models."
sixQuarks 12y ago
It would be cool if his bust becomes the first viral 3d printing meme, where people 3d print his bust and leave it in public spaces all over the world.
- hackuser 12y ago
  The artists are anonymous but according to the article, the author knows how to reach them. Perhaps someone should contact the publication. This is the only email address I see: tips@animalnewyork.com
  - spiritplumber 12y ago
    Make the STL available and it'll happen, at least around here.
- userbinator 12y ago
  "Snowden is Watching You"?
  - MrZongle2 12y ago
    Or perhaps "Snowden Was Watching Them Watch You".
rglover 12y ago
Seeing them cover this thing up is a hideous moment in our history: https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz. Shameful that something so harmless is immediately covered up (quite literally) because it challenges the state. The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks.
- borgia 12y ago
  >The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks. It really is. The facade of democracy is very quickly being peeled back to reveal something utterly terrifying. The response from the people has been the most disappointing and depressing thing though. The random sampling in NYC, of all places in the US, by Oliver's show was a brutal reminder of the mindset of the average person there.
  - hueving 12y ago
    >The facade of democracy >The response from the people has been the most disappointing Which one is it? Is it that democracy has failed, or is it that the majority don't care about this particular topic?
    - herbig 12y ago
      These two things are not mutually exclusive.
    - ryan_j_naughton 12y ago
      You are supposing that they are separate/independent failings when in reality they are linked. The way the government and the media demonized Snowden and fed the public misinformation was designed to get people to not care about this issue. By attacking Snowden and misrepresenting the facts (such as congressmen claiming he was certainly working for foreign intelligence agencies), they muddied the waters and left people confused and consequently apathetic.
  - Someone1234 12y ago
    Ignoring the republic/democratic state distinction, the US's democratic status has always been weak due to FPTP (ditto with the UK). It is essentially a system designed to keep the majority from even running and to keep the minority opinion silent. If the US (or UK) cared at all about democracy like they always claim they'd move to something better (e.g. Open list, party list, full on proportional representation, or a number of other alternatives). Heck even run off voting (i.e. multiple votes) in FPTP is superior like the Alternative Vote. But instead we have FPTP, and why? So we have this revolving door of "sameness" and monied politicians. Essentially bribery and corruption exist in the West, they're just completely legal and out in the open. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_voting_systems_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_voting_systems_by_cou... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party-list_proportional_representation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party-list_proportional_repres... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting
jronald 12y ago
Coopting memorials this way bothers me, especially in the case where the person being idealized would have been against it. I do appreciate the relevancy of the memorial being used. Using the location and its history as a running point for a demonstration / gathering would have been more impactful as well as being respectful to the purpose of the memorial.
- Estragon 12y ago
  I'm not sure Snowden would be against it, if it stood a good chance of getting people talking about the upcoming reauthorization of the Patriot Act on June 1.
  - MaysonL 12y ago
    Hell yeah he would be for it, he was willing to stoop to an extended penis joke in his interview with John Oliver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M
    - jronald 12y ago
      My statement regarding approval was referencing the article: "The artists admit that Snowden probably wouldn’t approve of the project, since he never wanted the leaks to be about him, but they hope he’d understand why they did it." Considering it was intended to be a temporary art installation, the MIT Hacks reference seems appropriate: " It is a traditional courtesy to leave a note or even engineering drawings behind, as an aid to safe de-installation of a hack."-nightworks The difference is that this was intended to be temporary and decisions were made to ensure safe removal, which I appreciate, but no instructions were left to a staff, possibly unfamiliar with the removal procedures, leading to risk of damage to the monument. I also think it unfair to assume the victims for which the memorial was for would believe this is a valid usage - while the theme is close, the artists are equating Prisoners of War losing their life in a situation they had no control over ( at that point), versus a situation very much in the hands of snowden (ignoring the injustices, there are and have been many decision open to him). Having researched a bit more, equating the situation of a single person, to the thousands (~11,500) who were effectively murdered due to the inhumane conditions of their captivity is distasteful at best. This is an opinion I know, and I appreciate this is a civil conversation if unpopular. I urge more reading on the memorial itself and its reason.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
plainOldText 12y ago
It's interesting to see that these people (1) installed the bust in such a way that it can be easily removed without damaging the existing structure and (2) went to great lengths to ensure that the new design is honoring the aesthetics that were already in place. One can argue otherwise, but I think this is a very creative and considerate form of protest which btw is also non-violent.
- fweespeech 12y ago
  I agree, they were far more considerate than many of the people that have done things like this [not of Snowden obviously].
- ics 12y ago
  As I said in another response: it's a political statement made with public art. As far as Parks and Rec is concerned, it's big heavy piece of vandalism, the integrity of which they know nothing about. To put this in a programmer's perspective: imagine if artists wanting to make political statements suddenly started littering your linux kernel with binary blobs which caused your boot screen to flash an image of Snowden. Let's pretend that this version of the kernel is hosted on an otherwise trusted package cache, and nobody is actually verifying checksums and so thousands of unsuspecting developers now have this tainted kernel. Funny? Innocuous? Ingenious? Perhaps, but I'd be amazed if you all didn't wipe your disks right then and there. Edit: I don't mind downvotes (this is my most downvoted chain of comments so far). However if you do, please take some time to contribute to the discussion with a substantive argument. I fully support Snowden, these artists, and the Parks department here. My argument here is only an attempt to make better sense of what people seem to be ignoring for the sake of a political argument which many of us want to support.
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    Depending on what you mean by "otherwise trusted", I would either not care or freak out worrying that I got something other than the Snowden blob. Just displaying an image would be easy to verify with a disassembler. And it's misleading to use 'binary blob' as an analogy to a simple statue. Most binary blobs are effectively impossible to examine fully.
aceperry 12y ago
Very cool idea. It doesn't look too much like Snowden though.
- arthurgibson 12y ago
  Google image search agrees with you: http://bit.ly/1CdboIs http://bit.ly/1CdboIs note: jack from "the shining" shows up
  - Buge 12y ago
    Google image search is not a face recognition engine or even a way to find different pictures of the same object. What it does is look for different versions (sizes and croppings) of the exact same picture, and if that fails, look for images with similar colors (Jack from the Shining).
    - nostrademons 12y ago
      It's actually pretty effective at face recognition when given actual faces: Obama: http://bit.ly/19Zkgur http://bit.ly/19Zkgur Putin: http://bit.ly/1aDAvyA http://bit.ly/1aDAvyA Lindsay Lohan: http://bit.ly/19ZkFgk http://bit.ly/19ZkFgk Matt Damon: http://bit.ly/1xYl5il http://bit.ly/1xYl5il
      - Buge 12y ago
        That only works because it found exact versions of that same picture on different websites and looked at the text of those sites and saw that the name "Barack Obama" was in the text of all those sites so it did an image search for "Barack Obama". Like I said: it searches for exact picture matches. If you took your own picture of Obama that had never been posted online before and did a reverse image search, it wouldn't work.
        nostrademons 12y ago
        Obviously it works better if it can find the exact image, but I don't think that's all that it's doing. For example, here's a picture of the Golden Gate bridge that I took myself from Angel Island, never before uploaded to the Internet: http://bit.ly/1HJy0oL http://bit.ly/1HJy0oL It couldn't get the query, but it does get similar images, including at least one other that's also of the Golden Gate bridge. I unfortunately don't have any personal pictures of celebrities, but here's one of a slightly-askew photo of my computer screen that includes Obama's face (but deliberately not all of the original picture): http://bit.ly/1CNk9wa http://bit.ly/1CNk9wa It managed to guess that one correctly, even though it didn't have the exact original image.
Animats 12y ago
The Wall Street Bull is also a piece of guerrilla art in New York City. That huge bronze was made by Arturo Di Modica and installed by him in 1989. It was once towed away to an impound lot, but enough people complained that it was moved to its present location.
- pharke 12y ago
  This is probably the most relevant comment in this thread and something that I am glad to have learned.
  - reustle 12y ago
    For those looking to learn more, here is the history on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_Bull#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_Bull#History
anonforthis1 12y ago
I know he wants to come to Switzerland (from some of the comments/feelers his people have put out in the last month or so). I really hope he can. If he does there are an endless number of American ex-pats and EU workers that will do what they can to help him here. He may have some trouble with the Swiss themselves though. They will want to question him about at least one covert operation he states he took part in when he was part of the CIA in Geneva, having to do with a Swiss banker. Frankly, the story sounds like a lie though. (he talks about bribing swiss police which is not something you can do easily here)
slowpoison 12y ago
Somebody should put up a second, uninteresting, benign bust just to see what happens to it vs Snowden's.
decebal 12y ago
I 3D scanned the place where the illicit Snowden bust was sitting just a few months ago :) https://sketchfab.com/models/20d2c70c4e164c7596e9393139ad0b72 https://sketchfab.com/models/20d2c70c4e164c7596e9393139ad0b7...
- wooster 12y ago
  Neat. What did you use to do the scan?
pc2g4d 12y ago
Fremont (in Seattle) might be a good home for this. It already hosts that crazy Lenin statue!
- brightsize 12y ago
  The Seattle parks department has not in the past seen a reason to leap to cover up and/or remove unauthorized structures that have appeared in its parks. The Monolith (2001) [1] comes to mind. Note that it was not covered or dismantled by the authorities, it was simply stolen. There have been other cases [2] where the city has been downright laid-back about such things, even supportive in a nod-and-a-wink sort of way. Yes indeed, it would be an honor to have this statue here in Washington state. The Fremont Lenin [3] statue has been for sale on and off over the years, the last time priced at $250K. If I could scrape together a spare $1/4M I'd be tempted to buy it and put it on my front lawn. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Monolith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Monolith [2] http://tiny.cc/4g1owx http://tiny.cc/4g1owx [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle Edit: formatting
cwyers 12y ago
A lot of the discussion in this thread talks about "the government" like it's some vast, coordinated entity. It really, really isn't. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who put a tarp over that Snowden bust didn't even know who Snowden was, they just knew someone snuck into their park overnight and put this thing there.
rdl 12y ago
I'd pay $500 for the smaller scale version, if they plan to offer those.
thisjustinm 12y ago
Step 1: the creators should release the files necessary to 3D print the bust Step 2: thousands of little versions of the bust begin showing up around the country Step 3: ...
hackuser 12y ago
Don't overlook the potentially enormous cost to the artists for this brief statement, in both time and money: The materials needed to create a bust of this type cost thousands of dollars, and the pair ponied up the cash. It then took a little over six months to sculpt, mold, cast and ship to New York. Had the sculptor charged market rates, he said it would have cost tens of thousands of dollars. “The amount of work that goes into this kind of stuff, it’s easily a 30 grand project,” said the 30-something sculptor. “If it were bronze, it could be a $100,000 piece of artwork, maybe more.” [From the article]
guiambros 12y ago
Didn't last long; it was covered this afternoon[1]. The best comment on Twitter: "Snowden busted; massive coverup underway"... Bummer I missed it. I was just a few blocks from the park. They should have done on the weekend. [1] https://vine.co/v/eBB171WXqIL https://vine.co/v/eBB171WXqIL
Zigurd 12y ago
What we really want to know is where can we get giant Snowden busts and is there a directory of empty plinths on the internet?
- pvaldes 12y ago
  Giant Snowden busts should look really great as the next generation of science fair soda volcanoes. The flame of truth everywhere... yup
dreamdu5t 12y ago
This is pathetic and selfish. Regardless of how you feel about Snowden (or anything) it is not okay to vandalize a memorial or any work of public art. Go put up your own statue but it is extremely selfish and unempathetic to forcefully co-opt an existing piece as a venue for your own. I'm disheartened by the widespread support for this using Snowdens actions as justification. What was put there is irrelevant to the fact that it is wrong and selfish to coopt a memorial to spread whatever message. How sad.

696 points by jdi626 12y ago

pshc 12y ago

Glorious hack! I wonder how many HNers are hustling over there for a selfie right now...? EDIT: Already too late :(

It has already been covered over with tarp and the letting removed[1]. It's a wonderful piece of work with excellent sentiment behind it. Unfortunately it doesn't suit the government and mainstream media narrative, so I'm sure the act of its erection will be decried as liberal terrorism and vandalism, the piece taken down and Snowden-related news once again brushed over. [1]http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/illegal-edward-snowden-bust-erected-atop-brooklyn-war-monume-article-1.2175004 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/illegal-edward-...

hspak 12y ago
I wonder how long the sculpture stood up. The two articles were only published 2 hours apart.
- borgia 12y ago
  It looks like they put it up around 6am and it was covered over around noon. I hope, for the sake of the work that went into the piece, that it isn't destroyed.
  - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
    That's amazing. Now if only the public works department could respond to potholes that quickly.
    - jessaustin 12y ago
      Maybe we could just start spraypainting Snowden's face in and around potholes? If it worked, the general public would know Snowden only as the pothole-fixing guy. No jury would ever convict! b^)
      - CalRobert 12y ago
        Actually, an approaching not entirely unlike that has been tried successfully in Russia. http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2012/09/embarrassing-pothole-caricatures-of-politicians-spur-action-to-fix-the-streets/ http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2012/09/embarrassing-pothole-c...
        CalRobert 12y ago
        Ugg. "approach". Nothing like seeing your typos the following day.
    - Someone1234 12y ago
      That is an interesting point. People here are saying (paraphrasing) "they'd take down any busk that wasn't authorised" and while I believe that to be true, it ignores the fact of just how QUICKLY this one got taken down. Less than six hours? How long does other graffiti take to be removed, days, weeks, months?
      - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        Yeah, I made my point in a snarky way, but there is definitely a political component to the swiftness of the action. It'd have been great if the job had to be submitted to a months long queue.
      - genericuser 12y ago
        I think the speed graffiti, bust, or other such expression is removed is going to be more or less relative to the amount of attention something draws / is expected to draw. Or at least I heard that is how wheels go about getting oil.
  - ics 12y ago
    Unless destroying it was the only way to remove it, it would likely go to the nearest impound lot (where I believe it can actually be claimed by the owners for a fee, though that might invite other problems).
genericuser 12y ago
I like part of Ruth Goldstein's, one of the park conservancy founders, response in that article. While I am fairly confident that asking and trying to go through legitimate channels to get the bust put up would not of worked, what she said makes me think there are at least people who would consider it, although probably not high enough in power structures to actually get it done. “The park is such a symbol of American liberty; that’s what it’s all about, the founding principals of it,” she said. “It (the bust) is almost appropriate but inappropriate to do it (put up illegally).”
- ta0967 12y ago
  not have worked, "founding principles".
  - genericuser 12y ago
    I am not certain that offering grammar corrections is very constructive. Also if you read the article in the parent post you would notice that your second correction should be directed at it not me, as I accurately copy pasted that quotation.
    - ta0967 12y ago
      * my comment was meant for other people reading your comment as much as it was for you. people soak up english in informal ways (such as reading stuff on the web) and someone might be led to use the wrong words. * some mistakes (and actual meanings) are obvious, others are more subtle. what else in the text conveys meaning that is different from the author's intent? * what purpose does it serve to say or write A when you meant B, outside of humor?
    - Dylan16807 12y ago
      Correcting the quote is silly, yes, but I think it's constructive to point out uses of the wrong word entirely. That's a far leap away from being ultra-picky about grammar. Though it might make more sense to use "'ve" when correcting to emphasize that it's not a spoken vs. written speech difference, it's a transcription error.
Lerc 12y ago
Their point about the image of the bust remains. The fact that they covered the bust with a tarp itself creates an image with a message. Consider the mentality of obscuring the bust with something that is even uglier. It is not a statement on the aesthetics of the work. It is literally saying "You may not look upon this unsanctioned idea"
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  So your theory is that they covered it up so no one will talk about Snowden? That doesn't make sense.
  - GhotiFish 12y ago
    no. His theory is that the artists wanted to create this very scene.
- tajen 12y ago
  Correct! For me a better political statement would have been to wait for the People to remove the statue. I want to know whether enough people who care about the memory of the Prison Ship Martyrs to organize the removal compared to the memory of Snowden. If someone removes it, it's a strong political statement that the People want this. If no one removes it, then the People has chosen new heroes.
makeitsuckless 12y ago
It's interesting that they choose to (almost literally) deface it. They're fully in their right to remove it, but simply making it unrecognizable feels like a political act.

marcoperaza 12y ago

This is disgusting. Snowden lost any legitimacy he may have had as a whistle-blower when he started exposing the unquestionably legitimate foreign intelligence activities and capabilities of the United States. You have to be naive to think the Russians are harboring him without something in exchange: even more information about our foreign intelligence activities. This traitor's bust does not belong among the remains of fallen heroes.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- adamnemecek 12y ago
  Your opinion is above all misinformed.
  - leswool 12y ago
    Seeking 3D printer blueprints/specs for replication of bust for "artist purposes"... Lev Woolf at gmail
- Phlarp 12y ago
  Sad to see that replying to yourself in order to whine about downvotes (and then deleting it) has made its way to hackernews from reddit.
  - vectorpush 12y ago
    And unique to HN is the constant need to chide reddit in a condescending effort to appear superior, as if to suggest that the quality of discussion on this site is substantially superior to reddit. Unfortunately, short of the front-page subreddits, it's really not much different. Hell, on any given day, the discussions in /r/programming are much more in the spirit of "hacker news" than half of the stuff that gets voted to the top of HN.
majke 12y ago
Sir. Edward does not expose anything. It's the journalists that choose the material. He made it very explicit from the start. > You have to be naive to think the Russians are harboring him Can you please provide a source? The quality of this comment is something I'd expect from a 50 cent army. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades [EDIT] Softened language.

Theodores 12y ago

Let's put this in some historical light. The British government abolished the slave trade in 1833 - 1838 and this was a big step (even if other schemes were in effect slavery). Only one monument was erected to commemorate this. Protagonists, e.g. William Wilberforce have statues however the event itself - abolition - only has this one memorial. It was built by a wealthy Quaker and served as the entrance arch for his mansion. Step forward 150 years and this might be the one and only memorial 'made at the time' to the work of our hero.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

oldgun 12y ago

This is the hacker spirit.

teammatters 12y ago

Why is Edward Snowden a hero? He divulged sensitive U.S. documents and information that now bad actors use to exploit/harm the US. Further, he knew what he was doing was against the law and ran as far away as he could to avoid facing the consequences(Bradley, now Chelsea Manning as far as I know didnt run like a coward). Now he's a pawn between Russia and US relations. The information he divulged that we are being watched by our govt. was nothing knew. It was information publicly known back in 2006. I don't get why he is so exalted?!?

ceejayoz 12y ago
He disclosed evidence of wrongdoing and illegal activity by the NSA, making him a whistleblower. He ran away to avoid the extrajudicial punishment Chelsea Manning experienced - years of pre-trial solitary confinement with such privileges as clothing being arbitrarily revoked. You can't say that the information he divulged was both known and sensitive without being pretty laughable, by the way.
- rhino369 12y ago
  >He disclosed evidence of wrongdoing and illegal activity by the NSA, making him a whistleblower. The only illegal things he disclosed was that some NSA agents/employees illegally used their tools to track ex-gfs and stuff. All the rest is completely legal. The country had a public debating about warrantless wiretaps and congress wrote laws about it. The NSA follows those laws. He released the information because he had a political problem with them. That cannot be allowed. I wouldn't call it traitorous, but it was a massive violation of state secrecy laws. Though, some of his actions since are at least flirting with traitorous behavior. He has released information about US spying on other governments. What the fuck did he think the NSA did? That was its raison d'être.
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    > All the rest is completely legal. That's a bold assertion not borne out by the facts. Examples: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/judge-deals-nsa-defeat-bulk-phone-collection http://bigstory.ap.org/article/judge-deals-nsa-defeat-bulk-p... http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/independent-review-board-says-nsa-phone-data-program-is-illegal-and-should-end/2014/01/22/4cebd470-83dd-11e3-bbe5-6a2a3141e3a9_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/indepe...

meritt 12y ago

We need a model of the bust so we can start printing these en masse on our 3D printers.

bsimpson 12y ago
It will get even better when Diane Feinstein orders us to take the model off the Internet.
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  Or when she orders the death penalty for anyone who prints it! /s
  - yellowapple 12y ago
    I don't think a sarcasm tag applies here; I wouldn't hold such a thing above the likes of her.
    - happyscrappy 12y ago
      If you dislike Feinstein you should hope she tries something like that, she would be out on her ear before noon.
- sigzero 12y ago
  SENATOR Feinstein. Please, she earned it.
  - pgeorgi 12y ago
    Like Chancellor Palpatine.
eadz 12y ago
This software may help. http://www.123dapp.com/catch http://www.123dapp.com/catch "Turn ordinary photos into extraordinary 3D models."

sixQuarks 12y ago

It would be cool if his bust becomes the first viral 3d printing meme, where people 3d print his bust and leave it in public spaces all over the world.

hackuser 12y ago
The artists are anonymous but according to the article, the author knows how to reach them. Perhaps someone should contact the publication. This is the only email address I see: tips@animalnewyork.com
- spiritplumber 12y ago
  Make the STL available and it'll happen, at least around here.
userbinator 12y ago
"Snowden is Watching You"?
- MrZongle2 12y ago
  Or perhaps "Snowden Was Watching Them Watch You".

rglover 12y ago

Seeing them cover this thing up is a hideous moment in our history: https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz https://vine.co/v/eBBvedaHtBz. Shameful that something so harmless is immediately covered up (quite literally) because it challenges the state. The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks.

borgia 12y ago
>The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks. It really is. The facade of democracy is very quickly being peeled back to reveal something utterly terrifying. The response from the people has been the most disappointing and depressing thing though. The random sampling in NYC, of all places in the US, by Oliver's show was a brutal reminder of the mindset of the average person there.
- hueving 12y ago
  >The facade of democracy >The response from the people has been the most disappointing Which one is it? Is it that democracy has failed, or is it that the majority don't care about this particular topic?
  - herbig 12y ago
    These two things are not mutually exclusive.
  - ryan_j_naughton 12y ago
    You are supposing that they are separate/independent failings when in reality they are linked. The way the government and the media demonized Snowden and fed the public misinformation was designed to get people to not care about this issue. By attacking Snowden and misrepresenting the facts (such as congressmen claiming he was certainly working for foreign intelligence agencies), they muddied the waters and left people confused and consequently apathetic.
- Someone1234 12y ago
  Ignoring the republic/democratic state distinction, the US's democratic status has always been weak due to FPTP (ditto with the UK). It is essentially a system designed to keep the majority from even running and to keep the minority opinion silent. If the US (or UK) cared at all about democracy like they always claim they'd move to something better (e.g. Open list, party list, full on proportional representation, or a number of other alternatives). Heck even run off voting (i.e. multiple votes) in FPTP is superior like the Alternative Vote. But instead we have FPTP, and why? So we have this revolving door of "sameness" and monied politicians. Essentially bribery and corruption exist in the West, they're just completely legal and out in the open. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_voting_systems_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_voting_systems_by_cou... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party-list_proportional_representation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party-list_proportional_repres... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting

jronald 12y ago

Coopting memorials this way bothers me, especially in the case where the person being idealized would have been against it. I do appreciate the relevancy of the memorial being used. Using the location and its history as a running point for a demonstration / gathering would have been more impactful as well as being respectful to the purpose of the memorial.

Estragon 12y ago
I'm not sure Snowden would be against it, if it stood a good chance of getting people talking about the upcoming reauthorization of the Patriot Act on June 1.
- MaysonL 12y ago
  Hell yeah he would be for it, he was willing to stoop to an extended penis joke in his interview with John Oliver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M
  - jronald 12y ago
    My statement regarding approval was referencing the article: "The artists admit that Snowden probably wouldn’t approve of the project, since he never wanted the leaks to be about him, but they hope he’d understand why they did it." Considering it was intended to be a temporary art installation, the MIT Hacks reference seems appropriate: " It is a traditional courtesy to leave a note or even engineering drawings behind, as an aid to safe de-installation of a hack."-nightworks The difference is that this was intended to be temporary and decisions were made to ensure safe removal, which I appreciate, but no instructions were left to a staff, possibly unfamiliar with the removal procedures, leading to risk of damage to the monument. I also think it unfair to assume the victims for which the memorial was for would believe this is a valid usage - while the theme is close, the artists are equating Prisoners of War losing their life in a situation they had no control over ( at that point), versus a situation very much in the hands of snowden (ignoring the injustices, there are and have been many decision open to him). Having researched a bit more, equating the situation of a single person, to the thousands (~11,500) who were effectively murdered due to the inhumane conditions of their captivity is distasteful at best. This is an opinion I know, and I appreciate this is a civil conversation if unpopular. I urge more reading on the memorial itself and its reason.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

plainOldText 12y ago

It's interesting to see that these people (1) installed the bust in such a way that it can be easily removed without damaging the existing structure and (2) went to great lengths to ensure that the new design is honoring the aesthetics that were already in place. One can argue otherwise, but I think this is a very creative and considerate form of protest which btw is also non-violent.

fweespeech 12y ago
I agree, they were far more considerate than many of the people that have done things like this [not of Snowden obviously].
ics 12y ago
As I said in another response: it's a political statement made with public art. As far as Parks and Rec is concerned, it's big heavy piece of vandalism, the integrity of which they know nothing about. To put this in a programmer's perspective: imagine if artists wanting to make political statements suddenly started littering your linux kernel with binary blobs which caused your boot screen to flash an image of Snowden. Let's pretend that this version of the kernel is hosted on an otherwise trusted package cache, and nobody is actually verifying checksums and so thousands of unsuspecting developers now have this tainted kernel. Funny? Innocuous? Ingenious? Perhaps, but I'd be amazed if you all didn't wipe your disks right then and there. Edit: I don't mind downvotes (this is my most downvoted chain of comments so far). However if you do, please take some time to contribute to the discussion with a substantive argument. I fully support Snowden, these artists, and the Parks department here. My argument here is only an attempt to make better sense of what people seem to be ignoring for the sake of a political argument which many of us want to support.
- Dylan16807 12y ago
  Depending on what you mean by "otherwise trusted", I would either not care or freak out worrying that I got something other than the Snowden blob. Just displaying an image would be easy to verify with a disassembler. And it's misleading to use 'binary blob' as an analogy to a simple statue. Most binary blobs are effectively impossible to examine fully.

aceperry 12y ago

Very cool idea. It doesn't look too much like Snowden though.

arthurgibson 12y ago
Google image search agrees with you: http://bit.ly/1CdboIs http://bit.ly/1CdboIs note: jack from "the shining" shows up
- Buge 12y ago
  Google image search is not a face recognition engine or even a way to find different pictures of the same object. What it does is look for different versions (sizes and croppings) of the exact same picture, and if that fails, look for images with similar colors (Jack from the Shining).
  - nostrademons 12y ago
    It's actually pretty effective at face recognition when given actual faces: Obama: http://bit.ly/19Zkgur http://bit.ly/19Zkgur Putin: http://bit.ly/1aDAvyA http://bit.ly/1aDAvyA Lindsay Lohan: http://bit.ly/19ZkFgk http://bit.ly/19ZkFgk Matt Damon: http://bit.ly/1xYl5il http://bit.ly/1xYl5il
    - Buge 12y ago
      That only works because it found exact versions of that same picture on different websites and looked at the text of those sites and saw that the name "Barack Obama" was in the text of all those sites so it did an image search for "Barack Obama". Like I said: it searches for exact picture matches. If you took your own picture of Obama that had never been posted online before and did a reverse image search, it wouldn't work.
      - nostrademons 12y ago
        Obviously it works better if it can find the exact image, but I don't think that's all that it's doing. For example, here's a picture of the Golden Gate bridge that I took myself from Angel Island, never before uploaded to the Internet: http://bit.ly/1HJy0oL http://bit.ly/1HJy0oL It couldn't get the query, but it does get similar images, including at least one other that's also of the Golden Gate bridge. I unfortunately don't have any personal pictures of celebrities, but here's one of a slightly-askew photo of my computer screen that includes Obama's face (but deliberately not all of the original picture): http://bit.ly/1CNk9wa http://bit.ly/1CNk9wa It managed to guess that one correctly, even though it didn't have the exact original image.

Animats 12y ago

The Wall Street Bull is also a piece of guerrilla art in New York City. That huge bronze was made by Arturo Di Modica and installed by him in 1989. It was once towed away to an impound lot, but enough people complained that it was moved to its present location.

pharke 12y ago
This is probably the most relevant comment in this thread and something that I am glad to have learned.
- reustle 12y ago
  For those looking to learn more, here is the history on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_Bull#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_Bull#History

anonforthis1 12y ago

I know he wants to come to Switzerland (from some of the comments/feelers his people have put out in the last month or so). I really hope he can. If he does there are an endless number of American ex-pats and EU workers that will do what they can to help him here. He may have some trouble with the Swiss themselves though. They will want to question him about at least one covert operation he states he took part in when he was part of the CIA in Geneva, having to do with a Swiss banker. Frankly, the story sounds like a lie though. (he talks about bribing swiss police which is not something you can do easily here)

slowpoison 12y ago

Somebody should put up a second, uninteresting, benign bust just to see what happens to it vs Snowden's.

decebal 12y ago

I 3D scanned the place where the illicit Snowden bust was sitting just a few months ago :) https://sketchfab.com/models/20d2c70c4e164c7596e9393139ad0b72 https://sketchfab.com/models/20d2c70c4e164c7596e9393139ad0b7...

wooster 12y ago
Neat. What did you use to do the scan?

pc2g4d 12y ago

Fremont (in Seattle) might be a good home for this. It already hosts that crazy Lenin statue!

brightsize 12y ago
The Seattle parks department has not in the past seen a reason to leap to cover up and/or remove unauthorized structures that have appeared in its parks. The Monolith (2001) [1] comes to mind. Note that it was not covered or dismantled by the authorities, it was simply stolen. There have been other cases [2] where the city has been downright laid-back about such things, even supportive in a nod-and-a-wink sort of way. Yes indeed, it would be an honor to have this statue here in Washington state. The Fremont Lenin [3] statue has been for sale on and off over the years, the last time priced at $250K. If I could scrape together a spare $1/4M I'd be tempted to buy it and put it on my front lawn. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Monolith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Monolith [2] http://tiny.cc/4g1owx http://tiny.cc/4g1owx [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle Edit: formatting

cwyers 12y ago

A lot of the discussion in this thread talks about "the government" like it's some vast, coordinated entity. It really, really isn't. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who put a tarp over that Snowden bust didn't even know who Snowden was, they just knew someone snuck into their park overnight and put this thing there.

rdl 12y ago

I'd pay $500 for the smaller scale version, if they plan to offer those.

thisjustinm 12y ago

Step 1: the creators should release the files necessary to 3D print the bust Step 2: thousands of little versions of the bust begin showing up around the country Step 3: ...

hackuser 12y ago

Don't overlook the potentially enormous cost to the artists for this brief statement, in both time and money: The materials needed to create a bust of this type cost thousands of dollars, and the pair ponied up the cash. It then took a little over six months to sculpt, mold, cast and ship to New York. Had the sculptor charged market rates, he said it would have cost tens of thousands of dollars. “The amount of work that goes into this kind of stuff, it’s easily a 30 grand project,” said the 30-something sculptor. “If it were bronze, it could be a $100,000 piece of artwork, maybe more.” [From the article]

guiambros 12y ago

Didn't last long; it was covered this afternoon[1]. The best comment on Twitter: "Snowden busted; massive coverup underway"... Bummer I missed it. I was just a few blocks from the park. They should have done on the weekend. [1] https://vine.co/v/eBB171WXqIL https://vine.co/v/eBB171WXqIL

Zigurd 12y ago

What we really want to know is where can we get giant Snowden busts and is there a directory of empty plinths on the internet?

pvaldes 12y ago
Giant Snowden busts should look really great as the next generation of science fair soda volcanoes. The flame of truth everywhere... yup

dreamdu5t 12y ago

This is pathetic and selfish. Regardless of how you feel about Snowden (or anything) it is not okay to vandalize a memorial or any work of public art. Go put up your own statue but it is extremely selfish and unempathetic to forcefully co-opt an existing piece as a venue for your own. I'm disheartened by the widespread support for this using Snowdens actions as justification. What was put there is irrelevant to the fact that it is wrong and selfish to coopt a memorial to spread whatever message. How sad.