4 ms·

American universities aren't just about education. Or even research, for that matter. They're often about providing a "life experience" for undergraduates. So

by reuven 12y ago

American universities aren't just about education. Or even research, for that matter. They're often about providing a "life experience" for undergraduates. So you have a huge investment in sports, entertainment, and living facilities that are basically unheard of in other countries. Plus, all sort of administrators and advisors who help students in a variety of different ways. These add up to a great experience, and arguably make the education better. But they also reflect how little the US government provides vs. other countries. And how much students depend on the university to provide services that in other countries would be provided by other agencies. And how an American university is expected to provide much more than just classrooms, lectures, and research. I graduated from two American universities (MIT and Northwestern). Each of these had an on-site medical facility (unnecessary in countries with nationalized health insurance), financial aid offices (unnecessary in places where the tuition is lower, or handled by centralized government agencies), student-only shuttle services (unnecessary where public transportation is good), sports teams (unheard of outside of the US), and a wide variety of extra-curriculars (again, basically non-existent outside of the US). Each of these requires a bunch of administrators. The building in which I did my PhD had a huge support staff. In an Israeli or European university, I think that the 15-20 secretaries, planners, and managers would have been replaced by 3-4 people. Overworked and underpaid people, mind you, but that's how you keep costs low. And my office (as a graduate student) in the US was positively opulent compared to what you'll find abroad. I used to think that student aid in the US was a great thing. But I do believe that American universities have basically decided that they can raise tuition without any penalty, because almost no one pays that sum out of pocket -- and everyone else just takes on crushing debt for many years to follow. Now, the fact is that I had a blast in my undergrad years, and my experience editing the student newspaper led directly to my current career. But having met many students and graduates in Israel (where I live), where universities are places to learn and do research, rather than have "life experiences," I'm not at all convinced that the added expense and overhead are worthwhile.

gumballhead 12y ago
I upvoted this comment because this is all very true and gets to be very expensive as enrollment rates increase, which was also mentioned in the article. But, despite all of this expense, I don't feel like I got a great education while I attended a public university. My classes were taught by grad students and adjuncts in 400 person auditoriums. I ended up transferring to a small private school about the size of my high school. The tuition was about four times what I was paying at a public school (though I didn't pay near that much out of my own pocket) and the quality of teaching was night and day.
chrisBob 12y ago
The extra features are all based on how US students choose a school. Here undergrads go to the school with the beautiful student union, the gym with a juice bar and climbing wall, and want to live in a room near the nicest 24 hour dining hall with made to order stir fry and sandwiches. Having granite countertops in the dorm room also helps. This is just how the select the specific university though. The target group of universities will probably be something like "City school in the North East", "Private college with small class sizes", or "Ivy with good greek life". As a contrast ask a Chinese person how they pick which university to go to in China. You will immediately get a confused look and the answer: "The highest ranked one you can get in to". My co-worker couldn't even imagine picking based on anything else.
- pconner 12y ago
  I don't think amenities are that big a factor in college choice. For people I know, price and prestige of the school are weighted way more than other factors such as location or quality of the school's buildings.
  - jeffreyrogers 12y ago
    It depends on the environment you're in. At my college everyone came here because of the prestige (and generous financial aid). At my high school people chose schools based largely on size, location, perceived fun, etc. if they couldn't get in to a top tier school. In my hometown people chose based on closeness to home, whether it was a party school or not, etc.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  Which one? PKU? Qinghua? Shanghai Jiaotong? It is not such an easy choice anymore, and the universities in Beijing have poor facilities compared to Shanghai, making it difficult for them to attract shanghainese to come here to Beijing to study. Even chinese students these days want heated and air conditioned dormitories, a shower in their dorm (at least on their floor! Definitely not in a separate building), and clean water to wash with. Or screw it, the ones that can will just go to some 2nd or 1st tier school in the U.S. or UK anyways so they aren't wasting their time.
jakejake 12y ago
Some people treat college like a four year vacation with planned activities. In which case the price is really quite cheap. Looking back, I was guilty of this attitude at various times.
- jostylr 12y ago
  There is no need to feel guilty. In general, many people need to detox from a childhood that lacked sufficient freedom to explore and become a full human being. Their internal programming then takes college and its new freedom as an opportunity to rectify that. It is quite a reasonable approach given our K-12 schooling setup and its intense control of children's time during the day.
  - jakejake 12y ago
    It's kinda too bad that the expected path is to go right to college after high school. Because,although it can be a lot of fun, it's an awfully expensive way to "detox" if one isn't even taking advantage of the school and its resources. I might have been more productive being a ski bum for a couple of years before heading to school.
    - jkestner 12y ago
      I think the year-off strategy is a good one. Too many people go back to grad school almost just for a re-do. 18 is too young to pick a career - I switched majors twice in the first two years. I want to formulate a better set of options and incentives for my kids. To start, I could chip in for some tuition if they take a year off, or just minimally support them for that year as long as they leave home. The pull of peers (let's go to college together even though we'll drift apart after!) is strong, though. gp may be on to something about detox. I'll have to allow them experiences growing up (provided they don't get taken by CPS).
      - DougWebb 12y ago
        18 is too young to pick a career Pretty much everyone throughout human history, outside of recent Western history, would probably disagree with that. By 18 you were expected to be a self-supporting adult. I think 18 is too young to pick a career only if you wait until you're 18 to start thinking about it. If you're encouraged and allowed to explore your interests earlier, you should have a pretty good idea of what you'd like to do by the time you're 18.

by reuven 12y ago

gumballhead 12y ago

I upvoted this comment because this is all very true and gets to be very expensive as enrollment rates increase, which was also mentioned in the article. But, despite all of this expense, I don't feel like I got a great education while I attended a public university. My classes were taught by grad students and adjuncts in 400 person auditoriums. I ended up transferring to a small private school about the size of my high school. The tuition was about four times what I was paying at a public school (though I didn't pay near that much out of my own pocket) and the quality of teaching was night and day.

chrisBob 12y ago

The extra features are all based on how US students choose a school. Here undergrads go to the school with the beautiful student union, the gym with a juice bar and climbing wall, and want to live in a room near the nicest 24 hour dining hall with made to order stir fry and sandwiches. Having granite countertops in the dorm room also helps. This is just how the select the specific university though. The target group of universities will probably be something like "City school in the North East", "Private college with small class sizes", or "Ivy with good greek life". As a contrast ask a Chinese person how they pick which university to go to in China. You will immediately get a confused look and the answer: "The highest ranked one you can get in to". My co-worker couldn't even imagine picking based on anything else.

pconner 12y ago
I don't think amenities are that big a factor in college choice. For people I know, price and prestige of the school are weighted way more than other factors such as location or quality of the school's buildings.
- jeffreyrogers 12y ago
  It depends on the environment you're in. At my college everyone came here because of the prestige (and generous financial aid). At my high school people chose schools based largely on size, location, perceived fun, etc. if they couldn't get in to a top tier school. In my hometown people chose based on closeness to home, whether it was a party school or not, etc.
seanmcdirmid 12y ago
Which one? PKU? Qinghua? Shanghai Jiaotong? It is not such an easy choice anymore, and the universities in Beijing have poor facilities compared to Shanghai, making it difficult for them to attract shanghainese to come here to Beijing to study. Even chinese students these days want heated and air conditioned dormitories, a shower in their dorm (at least on their floor! Definitely not in a separate building), and clean water to wash with. Or screw it, the ones that can will just go to some 2nd or 1st tier school in the U.S. or UK anyways so they aren't wasting their time.

jakejake 12y ago

Some people treat college like a four year vacation with planned activities. In which case the price is really quite cheap. Looking back, I was guilty of this attitude at various times.

jostylr 12y ago
There is no need to feel guilty. In general, many people need to detox from a childhood that lacked sufficient freedom to explore and become a full human being. Their internal programming then takes college and its new freedom as an opportunity to rectify that. It is quite a reasonable approach given our K-12 schooling setup and its intense control of children's time during the day.
- jakejake 12y ago
  It's kinda too bad that the expected path is to go right to college after high school. Because,although it can be a lot of fun, it's an awfully expensive way to "detox" if one isn't even taking advantage of the school and its resources. I might have been more productive being a ski bum for a couple of years before heading to school.
  - jkestner 12y ago
    I think the year-off strategy is a good one. Too many people go back to grad school almost just for a re-do. 18 is too young to pick a career - I switched majors twice in the first two years. I want to formulate a better set of options and incentives for my kids. To start, I could chip in for some tuition if they take a year off, or just minimally support them for that year as long as they leave home. The pull of peers (let's go to college together even though we'll drift apart after!) is strong, though. gp may be on to something about detox. I'll have to allow them experiences growing up (provided they don't get taken by CPS).
    - DougWebb 12y ago
      18 is too young to pick a career Pretty much everyone throughout human history, outside of recent Western history, would probably disagree with that. By 18 you were expected to be a self-supporting adult. I think 18 is too young to pick a career only if you wait until you're 18 to start thinking about it. If you're encouraged and allowed to explore your interests earlier, you should have a pretty good idea of what you'd like to do by the time you're 18.