5 ms·

The Mental Universe (2005) [pdf]

34 points by MichaelAO 12y ago

monochr 12y ago
And who exactly makes the observations? Is a cat good enough? A chimp? If we get someone really smart to look at an electron can we collapse it better? The brain centered quantum mechanics I've seen become fashionable to lay people in the last 20 years are a last gasp of homo-centrism that really should have died a very long time ago.
- attackvectors 12y ago
  No one said animals are not good enough to do it. It is not homo-centrism, it is consciousness-centrism if you wish to name it.
attackvectors 12y ago
In a shared hallucinated dream/reality our bodies and planet, if not real, may serve as a metaphoric language for some purpose. Perhaps as a classroom or habitat for gods.
justinpombrio 12y ago
Except that quantum mechanics does say there is "underlying stuff"; it's called the wave function. And it's in no way mental. I'd like to recommend the QM explanation on lesswrong. Unlike most other explanations out there, it attempts to take away, rather than add, mystery. http://lesswrong.com/lw/pc/quantum_explanations/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/pc/quantum_explanations/
- dedward 12y ago
  Everything you observe, your entire perception of reality is mental.
  - vegedor 12y ago
    > Everything you observe [...] is mental Observation, i.e. recognition, might be a mental process, but it's directed at something else. > your entire perception of reality is mental So mentality would be reality, therefore perception could only ever be directed at itself. But if there is nothing but the self, where does the notion of self come from, i.e. what is the self compared to? Can god heat up a burrito so far he can't eat it?
honzzz 12y ago
The article seems interesting but I am afraid I do not understand quantum physics well enough to understand it fully - could someone more knowledgeable please try to explain it like I am five? How would quantum mechanical perception of the world for common people look like?
- hliyan 12y ago
  I explain quantum physics (or at least the underlying principles) to myself this way: 1. Quantum fluctuations are the random number generator function of the universe. Without which, the universe will be utterly uniform and lacking detail. All detail (or information) is born through quantum fluctuations. 2. The universe has a finite resolution -- you zoom in enough and you reach a point where you 'see' the 'pixels' of the universe and see no further. This applies to matter, energy, space and time. I may be oversimplifying or even understanding it wrong, but to me, denying either (1) or (2) eventually leads to a reductio ad absurdum -- 1) a universe that is a uniform, featureless soup, or 2) infinite information density. * As a side-note, denying (1) also results in denying free will -- all future states of the universe becomes classically predictable, including the thoughts and behaviors of conscious beings in it. EDIT: sorry, I know you asked about perception. I've never quite been able to explain waveform collapse to myself. Intuitively, it feels like the universe does lazy evaluation -- all variables are in flux until read?
  - mangeletti 12y ago
    Worth noting is that this idea of quantum randomness has recently been all but proven wrong in an experiment involving water ripples[1]. Einstein had this idea of "hidden information" (i.e., just because we're not advanced enough yet to observe something doesn't mean it doesn't exist), but it has always been regarded as ludicrous. In other words, the resolution of the universe may not be finite, but since the parts involved in infinity are impossible to comprehend or list in a peer reviewed paper, this drives mathematicians bananas. In the end, the human ego might prove to be the real Strong Force in the universe. [1] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2014/09/quantum-physicists-catch-a-pilot-wave/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2014/09/quantum-p...
amelius 12y ago
If the universe is purely mental, then why does it follow a set of rules so precisely? Why doesn't it just dream up the best possible thoughts it can have? Also, why are different parts of this mental process disconnected from each other? For example, if you and i are both part of the same mental process, then why do we intuitively believe that we are different, disconnected entities?
- skidoo 12y ago
  I blame subconscious denial. Seriously.
- mgregory22 12y ago
  1. We don't know if the universe follows any rules precisely. We can never know because the only way to know that a rule is being followed unconditionally would be to exhaustively verify every event in the universe to see if it follows that rule, which is impossible. 2. There's not just one mental process. There are an infinite number (most likely) of mental processes. But even though we're not both part of the same mental process, we're both part of the same causal process. The reason we perceive ourselves as discrete entities is: 1. mental processes (thoughts) can be both true and false, 2. true thoughts are more rare than false thoughts, 3. false thoughts are still capable of doing work, and therefore, our survival has relied on the false thought that each of us is a separate individual, even though the truth is that we're causally dependent on one another, our environment, etc.
- vegedor 12y ago
  If the universe is purely mental, then it seems to follow a set of rules so precisely, because beyond the universe is reality which the mental process isn't conscious about (yet), i.e. it's unconscious about the rules, which answers your second question as well.
- unusximmortalis 12y ago
  "we intuitively believe that we are different, disconnected entities" my take is that we intuitively know we are one, not disconnected. but the short site, not listening to that intuition, is seeing only duality. the universe is a projection of the sum of all thoughts it is not better because we all as a sum do not create it better :)
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
unusximmortalis 12y ago
"THE ALL is MIND; The Universe is Mental." — The Kybalion. find and read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kybalion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kybalion the idea that the univers is mental is old, very old. it's funny how these scientists discover all of the sudden new ideas. and it's funny how we attribute discoveries to someone... the biggest minds that lived didn't attributed to themselves the ideas they had. modesty? honesty? :)

34 points by MichaelAO 12y ago

And who exactly makes the observations? Is a cat good enough? A chimp? If we get someone really smart to look at an electron can we collapse it better? The brain centered quantum mechanics I've seen become fashionable to lay people in the last 20 years are a last gasp of homo-centrism that really should have died a very long time ago.

attackvectors 12y ago
No one said animals are not good enough to do it. It is not homo-centrism, it is consciousness-centrism if you wish to name it.

attackvectors 12y ago

In a shared hallucinated dream/reality our bodies and planet, if not real, may serve as a metaphoric language for some purpose. Perhaps as a classroom or habitat for gods.

justinpombrio 12y ago

Except that quantum mechanics does say there is "underlying stuff"; it's called the wave function. And it's in no way mental. I'd like to recommend the QM explanation on lesswrong. Unlike most other explanations out there, it attempts to take away, rather than add, mystery. http://lesswrong.com/lw/pc/quantum_explanations/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/pc/quantum_explanations/

dedward 12y ago
Everything you observe, your entire perception of reality is mental.
- vegedor 12y ago
  > Everything you observe [...] is mental Observation, i.e. recognition, might be a mental process, but it's directed at something else. > your entire perception of reality is mental So mentality would be reality, therefore perception could only ever be directed at itself. But if there is nothing but the self, where does the notion of self come from, i.e. what is the self compared to? Can god heat up a burrito so far he can't eat it?

honzzz 12y ago

The article seems interesting but I am afraid I do not understand quantum physics well enough to understand it fully - could someone more knowledgeable please try to explain it like I am five? How would quantum mechanical perception of the world for common people look like?

hliyan 12y ago
I explain quantum physics (or at least the underlying principles) to myself this way: 1. Quantum fluctuations are the random number generator function of the universe. Without which, the universe will be utterly uniform and lacking detail. All detail (or information) is born through quantum fluctuations. 2. The universe has a finite resolution -- you zoom in enough and you reach a point where you 'see' the 'pixels' of the universe and see no further. This applies to matter, energy, space and time. I may be oversimplifying or even understanding it wrong, but to me, denying either (1) or (2) eventually leads to a reductio ad absurdum -- 1) a universe that is a uniform, featureless soup, or 2) infinite information density. * As a side-note, denying (1) also results in denying free will -- all future states of the universe becomes classically predictable, including the thoughts and behaviors of conscious beings in it. EDIT: sorry, I know you asked about perception. I've never quite been able to explain waveform collapse to myself. Intuitively, it feels like the universe does lazy evaluation -- all variables are in flux until read?
- mangeletti 12y ago
  Worth noting is that this idea of quantum randomness has recently been all but proven wrong in an experiment involving water ripples[1]. Einstein had this idea of "hidden information" (i.e., just because we're not advanced enough yet to observe something doesn't mean it doesn't exist), but it has always been regarded as ludicrous. In other words, the resolution of the universe may not be finite, but since the parts involved in infinity are impossible to comprehend or list in a peer reviewed paper, this drives mathematicians bananas. In the end, the human ego might prove to be the real Strong Force in the universe. [1] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2014/09/quantum-physicists-catch-a-pilot-wave/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2014/09/quantum-p...

amelius 12y ago

If the universe is purely mental, then why does it follow a set of rules so precisely? Why doesn't it just dream up the best possible thoughts it can have? Also, why are different parts of this mental process disconnected from each other? For example, if you and i are both part of the same mental process, then why do we intuitively believe that we are different, disconnected entities?

skidoo 12y ago
I blame subconscious denial. Seriously.
mgregory22 12y ago
1. We don't know if the universe follows any rules precisely. We can never know because the only way to know that a rule is being followed unconditionally would be to exhaustively verify every event in the universe to see if it follows that rule, which is impossible. 2. There's not just one mental process. There are an infinite number (most likely) of mental processes. But even though we're not both part of the same mental process, we're both part of the same causal process. The reason we perceive ourselves as discrete entities is: 1. mental processes (thoughts) can be both true and false, 2. true thoughts are more rare than false thoughts, 3. false thoughts are still capable of doing work, and therefore, our survival has relied on the false thought that each of us is a separate individual, even though the truth is that we're causally dependent on one another, our environment, etc.
vegedor 12y ago
If the universe is purely mental, then it seems to follow a set of rules so precisely, because beyond the universe is reality which the mental process isn't conscious about (yet), i.e. it's unconscious about the rules, which answers your second question as well.
unusximmortalis 12y ago
"we intuitively believe that we are different, disconnected entities" my take is that we intuitively know we are one, not disconnected. but the short site, not listening to that intuition, is seeing only duality. the universe is a projection of the sum of all thoughts it is not better because we all as a sum do not create it better :)

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

unusximmortalis 12y ago

"THE ALL is MIND; The Universe is Mental." — The Kybalion. find and read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kybalion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kybalion the idea that the univers is mental is old, very old. it's funny how these scientists discover all of the sudden new ideas. and it's funny how we attribute discoveries to someone... the biggest minds that lived didn't attributed to themselves the ideas they had. modesty? honesty? :)