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About PhoneGap: > They produce a very crappy experience that doesn't use the native OS functions, doesn't look and feel native, feels slow and has many bugs (f

About PhoneGap: > They produce a very crappy experience that doesn't use the native OS functions, doesn't look and feel native, feels slow and has many bugs (for example they can't use the hardware back button) Can you elaborate on what you mean here? Sure, the apps never feel completely native but you can still invoke native features including the back button on Android, reuse the same code to make a web app and while bugs happen it isn't any worse than trying to create a cross-browser web app (which is essentially what you're writing). Pretty much every software development choice is a trade off and PhoneGap is a good one sometimes.

mbesto 12y ago
I've used PhoneGap. There is a huge conflation of "feeling native" and the "native controls" aspect of PhoneGap's features. Can you access the camera on a phone using PhoneGap? Sure, but you know those apps you use every day? They are polished and you can't polish with PhoneGap. Scrolling is snappy, navigation doesn't lag, etc. etc.
- seanwilson 12y ago
  But you're dealing with trade-offs unless you have unlimited resources. If you want an iOS, Android and web app as soon as possible with a decent UI on a limited budget, PhoneGap is hard to compete with. If you want the slickest possible iOS UI, native is likely the way to go but it costs significantly more resources if you want to support other platforms as well. You're not getting anything for free and you have to decide what you want to spend your resources on.
  - mbesto 12y ago
    Sure, I'm not disputing tradeoffs. > If you want an iOS, Android and web app as soon as possible with a decent UI on a limited budget, Your chances of business/users/engagement success quickly dwindle if that's the rationale.
    - seanwilson 12y ago
      So how would you rate a PhoneGap UX compared to a native UX? I agree the latter is better but I don't see the former as significantly worse. If you have limited resources, you've usually got the choice between supporting multiple platforms with a decent UX or a limited number of platforms with a great UX.
      - MBCook 12y ago
        If you have limited resources perhaps supporting multiple platforms from the start isn't a good idea. One well done app on a big platform may be much better than three decent/acceptable apps on three big platforms.
        seanwilson 12y ago
        Yes, it depends on the app if it's worth it. You need to consider that developing two native apps is probably twice the cost of developing one cross-platform app for two platforms. I think developers are overly aware of the differences between native and non-native apps, and overestimate how much a casual app user cares about a native experience to be honest. I'd love to implement native experiences for all apps I write but I have to take budgets into account.
        MBCook 12y ago
        > I think developers are overly aware of the differences between native and non-native apps, and overestimate how much a casual app user cares about a native experience to be honest. I would expect the opposite. They may not be able to put a name to the issues or even describe them, but I'd expect average people to show a clear preference for native apps basically every time in a side by side test. I think developers tend to underestimate how important good UI responsiveness and feel is.
      - mbesto 12y ago
        Having an app that isn't "significantly worse" can be the difference of having 5,000 or 1 million users. While it's impossible to prove, there is loads of evidence to suggest even just 200ms of UI delay can cause UX problems. [0] Your comment does bring up a good point however, I've struggled to prove any of this with any scientific manner. I wish there was, because it would selling native solutions so much easier. The only proof really is the fact that the most downloaded apps in the world all use native, and many (FB and LI come to my mind) tried the hybrid solution and it failed miserably.[1][2] [0] - http://www.nngroup.com/articles/response-times-3-important-limits/ http://www.nngroup.com/articles/response-times-3-important-l... [1] - http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/23/3262782/facebook-for-ios-native-app http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/23/3262782/facebook-for-ios-n... [2] - http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/17/linkedin-mobile-web-breakup/ http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/17/linkedin-mobile-web-breaku...
  - briandear 12y ago
    Why couldn't you use RubyMotion?

mbesto 12y ago

I've used PhoneGap. There is a huge conflation of "feeling native" and the "native controls" aspect of PhoneGap's features. Can you access the camera on a phone using PhoneGap? Sure, but you know those apps you use every day? They are polished and you can't polish with PhoneGap. Scrolling is snappy, navigation doesn't lag, etc. etc.

seanwilson 12y ago
But you're dealing with trade-offs unless you have unlimited resources. If you want an iOS, Android and web app as soon as possible with a decent UI on a limited budget, PhoneGap is hard to compete with. If you want the slickest possible iOS UI, native is likely the way to go but it costs significantly more resources if you want to support other platforms as well. You're not getting anything for free and you have to decide what you want to spend your resources on.
- mbesto 12y ago
  Sure, I'm not disputing tradeoffs. > If you want an iOS, Android and web app as soon as possible with a decent UI on a limited budget, Your chances of business/users/engagement success quickly dwindle if that's the rationale.
  - seanwilson 12y ago
    So how would you rate a PhoneGap UX compared to a native UX? I agree the latter is better but I don't see the former as significantly worse. If you have limited resources, you've usually got the choice between supporting multiple platforms with a decent UX or a limited number of platforms with a great UX.
    - MBCook 12y ago
      If you have limited resources perhaps supporting multiple platforms from the start isn't a good idea. One well done app on a big platform may be much better than three decent/acceptable apps on three big platforms.
      - seanwilson 12y ago
        Yes, it depends on the app if it's worth it. You need to consider that developing two native apps is probably twice the cost of developing one cross-platform app for two platforms. I think developers are overly aware of the differences between native and non-native apps, and overestimate how much a casual app user cares about a native experience to be honest. I'd love to implement native experiences for all apps I write but I have to take budgets into account.
        MBCook 12y ago
        > I think developers are overly aware of the differences between native and non-native apps, and overestimate how much a casual app user cares about a native experience to be honest. I would expect the opposite. They may not be able to put a name to the issues or even describe them, but I'd expect average people to show a clear preference for native apps basically every time in a side by side test. I think developers tend to underestimate how important good UI responsiveness and feel is.
    - mbesto 12y ago
      Having an app that isn't "significantly worse" can be the difference of having 5,000 or 1 million users. While it's impossible to prove, there is loads of evidence to suggest even just 200ms of UI delay can cause UX problems. [0] Your comment does bring up a good point however, I've struggled to prove any of this with any scientific manner. I wish there was, because it would selling native solutions so much easier. The only proof really is the fact that the most downloaded apps in the world all use native, and many (FB and LI come to my mind) tried the hybrid solution and it failed miserably.[1][2] [0] - http://www.nngroup.com/articles/response-times-3-important-limits/ http://www.nngroup.com/articles/response-times-3-important-l... [1] - http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/23/3262782/facebook-for-ios-native-app http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/23/3262782/facebook-for-ios-n... [2] - http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/17/linkedin-mobile-web-breakup/ http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/17/linkedin-mobile-web-breaku...
- briandear 12y ago
  Why couldn't you use RubyMotion?