7 ms·

I'd argue that the ideal of not owning car is more tethered to the lack of medium-to-high paying jobs for a huge swath of the population in the United States. I

I'd argue that the ideal of not owning car is more tethered to the lack of medium-to-high paying jobs for a huge swath of the population in the United States. I find the idea of millennials not driving simply due to aspiration sets a little nauseating, as depending on how you're slicing the age cut off, I'm part of "this generation". Owning a car is very expensive and out of reach of fair number of people. Even driving a modest economy car, between parking ($150 monthly downtown in my city) , my car loan ($200 mo.) and good insurance ($200ish mo.) + gas ($60ish) means I'm out $600+ of income. That's $7200 yearly without maintenance. That's as much as many people's rent in many places. I'm privileged enough that I can afford this without seriously impacting my lifestyle, and I have a sinking suspicion that if more millennials could, they'd also be car owners/drivers. With the average income per person, at $26,000, owning car is nearly out of reach. However, I suppose I shouldn't look the gift horse in the mouth. Giving more mass transit options for work is certainly a good thing.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago
I'm always surprised how much cheaper it is to own/use a car in the states vs. almost every other country in the world. Even someone on minimum wage can (and often does) own one (if just used). Parking is cheap, free in many cities/suburbs, there is little tax on purchase (a $40k car in Beijing costs $20k in the USA, and lets not get to Singapore), and wow...gas.
- userulluipeste 12y ago
  As I've mentioned in another post around here ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9297375 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9297375 ), it seems to be a cultural thing where car ownership is indeed strongly encouraged in the USA. You shred a little bit more light on it.
cperciva 12y ago
I'm privileged enough that I can afford this without seriously impacting my lifestyle, and I have a sinking suspicion that if more millennials could, they'd also be car owners/drivers. At 34, I'm at the upper end of the millennial age range, and I have had a car for the past decade. But I'm paying about $500/month extra rent for the privilege of living close to mass transit, and if it could efficiently get me everywhere I needed to go I would ditch my car in a heartbeat. Or to put that another way: I would pay extra for the privilege of not owning a car. I suspect that in Vancouver at least, 20 years from now the strongest predictor of car ownership will be "too poor to live close to mass transit".
- mason240 12y ago
  >20 years from now the strongest predictor of car ownership will be "too poor to live close to mass transit". I'm sure most people on here realize this, but European cities are the opposite of US cities - poor people live in suburbs outside the city, living in the city is desirable. If you think the debate over gentrification is interesting now, just imagine what it will look like in US cities where this flip-flop takes place. I live in the Twin Cities, MN, and see this happening to Minneapolis-St Paul as they seem to be going through this right now
  - rayiner 12y ago
    I don't think most people on HN realize this.
  - cperciva 12y ago
    And that's why I said "in Vancouver". We're a far more European city than most of North America.
  - mikepurvis 12y ago
    The Waterloo region is in the midst of this transition: a huge LRT project on the central transit corridor, along with billions in ritzy new condo developments are shooting up, plus refurbished lofts and such. But a lot of the street-level changes are very much in progress: the main drag is this odd mix of upscale restaurants and yoga studios tucked in between pawn shops, tattoo parlors, and dumpy takeout counters. Anyhow, we believe in it: We just bought a house a few blocks from a future train stop. If there's a possibility that our present vehicle is the last one we buy, I'd be very happy about that.
  - Kephael 12y ago
    Unless mass transit were to become more convenient than point to point transportation via automobiles I can't see this happening. Those who can afford it will almost always value the convenience and privacy allotted by automobiles. In Europe, the cities were originally built and designed long before automobiles, trains, and streetcars and the resulting layout results in a denser environments where mass transit works better.
MAGZine 12y ago
As a young(-er) millennial, i'm conflicted. I grew up in a town where drivers ed was free through highschool--everyone had a car. everyone. public transit isn't good enough except for those legitimately, objectively poor (most highschool kids have jobs and virtually no expenses though, so this is not them). When I moved to a big city for the first time, I brought my car with me. The second time I moved to a big city, I left it behind. Cars are nice when the weather or lame, or when you need to go somewhere not serviced by transit, or need to transport something large, or want to go on a road trip somewhere. However, these uses constitute a VERY small portion of trips. Whenever I dish out $6/hr for parking, or $X00 - $XX00 dollars for maintenance, it frustrates me and reminds me that cars are more expensive than I prefer. Transit means I don't have to pay attention to the road when going places and don't worry about all of the expenses/car headaches. That said, there are some times when car ownership is nice, and I love driving... but I drive stick, so if people can get around with public transit just fine, I see little reason for people to be eager car owners. Car ownership is quickly becoming a relic for people who care to live close to everything, and can do without cars.
Kephael 12y ago
I tend to agree with this sentiment, nearly all of the people in this age range that I know work in low paying jobs and cannot afford the traditional lifestyle. The article tries to claim they are "highly educated" but most have degrees that were not challenging and do not lead to value creation.
saturdaysaint 12y ago
On the other hand, you're talking about spending thousands of dollars on something that's idle %95 of the day, and is often patently awful to use (rush hour traffic). Being able to walk to work probably portends being able to walk to grocery stores, restaurants, a downtown... which a lot of more people find preferable and more healthful than a car-dependent life. And suburbs are often aesthetically dull (McMansions and cookie-cutter shopping malls) compared even to suburbs with a walkable downtown. I'm a suburban commuter myself, and though there is a whiff of pretension to the idea of "courting" milennials, I think it's a completely rational preference.
- ghaff 12y ago
  It is and it might have been mine once upon a time. I actually could take mass transit to my first full-time job although I rarely did as it took much longer and I had free or cheap parking. And when I first moved to the area where I now live, I lived out by the office mostly because I didn't want a close to an hour commute. That said, if you live in a city and get a convenient job in walking distance or on a convenient mass transit line, it's probably worth considering that this state of affairs probably won't last if you switch jobs because it's not the norm.
  - panglott 12y ago
    I cycle more than use mass transit. But, having switched jobs a couple times, this is less a big problem than you might imagine. One you decide it's important to you to not waste hours in traffic all the time, it's easier to organize your life to facilitate that. It's not even all work, being about to run errands near your home is important too.
Havoc 12y ago
>I find the idea of millennials not driving simply due to aspiration sets a little nauseating Not so sure. For me it certainly was a lifestyle choice - I opted to rather spend more on rent and be within walking distance of well...pretty much everything I need.
panglott 12y ago
Sometimes the idea of getting a second car comes up, but man, the opportunity cost is just so huge.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago

I'm always surprised how much cheaper it is to own/use a car in the states vs. almost every other country in the world. Even someone on minimum wage can (and often does) own one (if just used). Parking is cheap, free in many cities/suburbs, there is little tax on purchase (a $40k car in Beijing costs $20k in the USA, and lets not get to Singapore), and wow...gas.

userulluipeste 12y ago
As I've mentioned in another post around here ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9297375 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9297375 ), it seems to be a cultural thing where car ownership is indeed strongly encouraged in the USA. You shred a little bit more light on it.

cperciva 12y ago

I'm privileged enough that I can afford this without seriously impacting my lifestyle, and I have a sinking suspicion that if more millennials could, they'd also be car owners/drivers. At 34, I'm at the upper end of the millennial age range, and I have had a car for the past decade. But I'm paying about $500/month extra rent for the privilege of living close to mass transit, and if it could efficiently get me everywhere I needed to go I would ditch my car in a heartbeat. Or to put that another way: I would pay extra for the privilege of not owning a car. I suspect that in Vancouver at least, 20 years from now the strongest predictor of car ownership will be "too poor to live close to mass transit".

mason240 12y ago
>20 years from now the strongest predictor of car ownership will be "too poor to live close to mass transit". I'm sure most people on here realize this, but European cities are the opposite of US cities - poor people live in suburbs outside the city, living in the city is desirable. If you think the debate over gentrification is interesting now, just imagine what it will look like in US cities where this flip-flop takes place. I live in the Twin Cities, MN, and see this happening to Minneapolis-St Paul as they seem to be going through this right now
- rayiner 12y ago
  I don't think most people on HN realize this.
- cperciva 12y ago
  And that's why I said "in Vancouver". We're a far more European city than most of North America.
- mikepurvis 12y ago
  The Waterloo region is in the midst of this transition: a huge LRT project on the central transit corridor, along with billions in ritzy new condo developments are shooting up, plus refurbished lofts and such. But a lot of the street-level changes are very much in progress: the main drag is this odd mix of upscale restaurants and yoga studios tucked in between pawn shops, tattoo parlors, and dumpy takeout counters. Anyhow, we believe in it: We just bought a house a few blocks from a future train stop. If there's a possibility that our present vehicle is the last one we buy, I'd be very happy about that.
- Kephael 12y ago
  Unless mass transit were to become more convenient than point to point transportation via automobiles I can't see this happening. Those who can afford it will almost always value the convenience and privacy allotted by automobiles. In Europe, the cities were originally built and designed long before automobiles, trains, and streetcars and the resulting layout results in a denser environments where mass transit works better.

MAGZine 12y ago

As a young(-er) millennial, i'm conflicted. I grew up in a town where drivers ed was free through highschool--everyone had a car. everyone. public transit isn't good enough except for those legitimately, objectively poor (most highschool kids have jobs and virtually no expenses though, so this is not them). When I moved to a big city for the first time, I brought my car with me. The second time I moved to a big city, I left it behind. Cars are nice when the weather or lame, or when you need to go somewhere not serviced by transit, or need to transport something large, or want to go on a road trip somewhere. However, these uses constitute a VERY small portion of trips. Whenever I dish out $6/hr for parking, or $X00 - $XX00 dollars for maintenance, it frustrates me and reminds me that cars are more expensive than I prefer. Transit means I don't have to pay attention to the road when going places and don't worry about all of the expenses/car headaches. That said, there are some times when car ownership is nice, and I love driving... but I drive stick, so if people can get around with public transit just fine, I see little reason for people to be eager car owners. Car ownership is quickly becoming a relic for people who care to live close to everything, and can do without cars.

Kephael 12y ago

I tend to agree with this sentiment, nearly all of the people in this age range that I know work in low paying jobs and cannot afford the traditional lifestyle. The article tries to claim they are "highly educated" but most have degrees that were not challenging and do not lead to value creation.

saturdaysaint 12y ago

On the other hand, you're talking about spending thousands of dollars on something that's idle %95 of the day, and is often patently awful to use (rush hour traffic). Being able to walk to work probably portends being able to walk to grocery stores, restaurants, a downtown... which a lot of more people find preferable and more healthful than a car-dependent life. And suburbs are often aesthetically dull (McMansions and cookie-cutter shopping malls) compared even to suburbs with a walkable downtown. I'm a suburban commuter myself, and though there is a whiff of pretension to the idea of "courting" milennials, I think it's a completely rational preference.

ghaff 12y ago
It is and it might have been mine once upon a time. I actually could take mass transit to my first full-time job although I rarely did as it took much longer and I had free or cheap parking. And when I first moved to the area where I now live, I lived out by the office mostly because I didn't want a close to an hour commute. That said, if you live in a city and get a convenient job in walking distance or on a convenient mass transit line, it's probably worth considering that this state of affairs probably won't last if you switch jobs because it's not the norm.
- panglott 12y ago
  I cycle more than use mass transit. But, having switched jobs a couple times, this is less a big problem than you might imagine. One you decide it's important to you to not waste hours in traffic all the time, it's easier to organize your life to facilitate that. It's not even all work, being about to run errands near your home is important too.

Havoc 12y ago

>I find the idea of millennials not driving simply due to aspiration sets a little nauseating Not so sure. For me it certainly was a lifestyle choice - I opted to rather spend more on rent and be within walking distance of well...pretty much everything I need.

panglott 12y ago

Sometimes the idea of getting a second car comes up, but man, the opportunity cost is just so huge.