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The problem with statements like this is their total lack of balance. What I mean is that because of Guantanamo you will have people like this going on the air

The problem with statements like this is their total lack of balance. What I mean is that because of Guantanamo you will have people like this going on the air at Russia TV claiming the US Government is a "criminal organization". Nevermind that you are hearing this from KGB sponsored Russia TV that will not discuss at any length things like genocide of over 1 milion chechens or murders ordered by Putin. For me, it's a bit like someone in the 1930s going to a German Nazi sponsored radio saying how bad racism is in the USA while not thinking twice about anti-semitism of the Germany. And then at the end of the day you really end up with people who think USA is horrible because of things like Guantanamo being totally prone to Russian propaganda. When Russia is so, so much worse. The things aren't in perspective when you get rid of context.

20after4 12y ago
Just how much worse is Russia?
- Alleluja 12y ago
  Chechnya: if I'd need to compare to the US, it would be like the USA invading New Mexico and doing there a genocide to a tune of over 1 milion people (civilians).
recibe 12y ago
What Russia does or doesn't do has nothing to do with the fact that the US tortures people in Guantanamo. The problem with statements like yours is that they misdirect the argument into a irrelevant, relativistic conversation.
zo1 12y ago
>"The things aren't in perspective when you get rid of context." Context is not necessary. Torture and murder are never okay. So no matter how much "worse" Russia is over America, we will not excuse either. And you can insert any two countries you like in that example above; it'll still apply.
- Alleluja 12y ago
  Genocide of 1 milion of your own citizens - this is what Putin did. You say American presidents are as bad? Really?! So Hitler saying Roosevelt is horrible because of racism in the US is perfectly fine in your book? Or what about murderer being a judge in a thief case? I wish Americans were so ready to see issues in Russia, Iran, China as they are to see very small errors in the US policy. Russians are banned to even watch CNN nowadays but you guys buy Russia-TV fed propaganda day and night.
  - zo1 12y ago
    >"So Hitler saying Roosevelt is horrible because of racism in the US is perfectly fine in your book?" Yes. Additionally, it has no bearing on the bad/horrible things Hitler is/was doing at the time I asked the question. Obviously he can't get a free pass for his evil deeds by saying 'but look, Roosevelt is racist, so what I did is OK'. >"I wish Americans were so ready to see issues in Russia, Iran, China as they are to see very small errors in the US policy. Russians are banned to even watch CNN nowadays but you guys buy Russia-TV fed propaganda day and night." I'm not American, so I can't comment on that part. But in general, I agree with you, people need to be more outraged about everything in general. Whether it's something horrible in Russia, or mildly horrible in America, it should spark outrage/action. Though there is something to be said about going for the "low-hanging" fruit first. But, let's face it, most people couldn't be arsed to fix their mildly-bad implementation of democracy. What makes you think they'd be willing to try fix the horrible government in a different country/continent?
    - Alleluja 12y ago
      I will omit other comments you made as I might agree on them or not really care that much. Here is an important (to me!) point that you made: >I'm not American, so I can't comment on that part. But in general, I agree with you, people need to be more outraged about everything in general. Whether it's something horrible in Russia, or mildly horrible in America, it should spark outrage/action. You say people need to be more outraged. I say they need to look into things in a balanced way. If you watch Russia TV only and nothing else, there is a very good chance you will be outraged about a few dozen Guantanamo prisoners being tortured not even knowing at all that they media outlet trying to make you angry about it, is at the same time sponsored by organization (KGB, Russian Government) that took part in a genocide of over 1 milion people. If you listen just to Geobbels and never turn on BBC, you are outraged about wrong stuff (you said that), or your opinions are out of balance (that's what I would say).
shit_parade 12y ago
So your argument is yeah we torture and murder people without cause but this other guy over there, he tortures and kills even more people so it's okay. America is also recently responsible for hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties in Iraq and surrounding countries. We continue to support a military junta in Egypt -- anyone want to dredge up Obama's beautiful speech about freedom he made in Cairo? No one has really responded to my question, how bad must your employer be, apparently torture isn't bad enough, before you refuse to work for him, or at least stop applauding people who sign up to go help out at the torture club.
- Alleluja 12y ago
  The problem with people like you is that if we don't do anything inn Syria then you say people die. And if we do something you say because we did something people die. Very hard to please you.
  - shit_parade 12y ago
    This is not a response to my question. Also, stop attributing arguments to me and that I'm not making here. Judged by their actions, American policy makers have zero interest in improving the life's of ordinary civilians throughout the middle east. We ignored Bahrain, we are actively supporting the Egyptian junta, we arm random Syrian rebels, we indisrimately bomb the former remnants of Iraq. But answer my original question, you seem to be fully willing to work for and defend n entity that tortures and murders without cause, would you also work for a mass genocidal killer? How is it controversial to express repugnance for those willing to abet torture?

20after4 12y ago

Just how much worse is Russia?

Alleluja 12y ago
Chechnya: if I'd need to compare to the US, it would be like the USA invading New Mexico and doing there a genocide to a tune of over 1 milion people (civilians).

recibe 12y ago

What Russia does or doesn't do has nothing to do with the fact that the US tortures people in Guantanamo. The problem with statements like yours is that they misdirect the argument into a irrelevant, relativistic conversation.

zo1 12y ago

>"The things aren't in perspective when you get rid of context." Context is not necessary. Torture and murder are never okay. So no matter how much "worse" Russia is over America, we will not excuse either. And you can insert any two countries you like in that example above; it'll still apply.

Alleluja 12y ago
Genocide of 1 milion of your own citizens - this is what Putin did. You say American presidents are as bad? Really?! So Hitler saying Roosevelt is horrible because of racism in the US is perfectly fine in your book? Or what about murderer being a judge in a thief case? I wish Americans were so ready to see issues in Russia, Iran, China as they are to see very small errors in the US policy. Russians are banned to even watch CNN nowadays but you guys buy Russia-TV fed propaganda day and night.
- zo1 12y ago
  >"So Hitler saying Roosevelt is horrible because of racism in the US is perfectly fine in your book?" Yes. Additionally, it has no bearing on the bad/horrible things Hitler is/was doing at the time I asked the question. Obviously he can't get a free pass for his evil deeds by saying 'but look, Roosevelt is racist, so what I did is OK'. >"I wish Americans were so ready to see issues in Russia, Iran, China as they are to see very small errors in the US policy. Russians are banned to even watch CNN nowadays but you guys buy Russia-TV fed propaganda day and night." I'm not American, so I can't comment on that part. But in general, I agree with you, people need to be more outraged about everything in general. Whether it's something horrible in Russia, or mildly horrible in America, it should spark outrage/action. Though there is something to be said about going for the "low-hanging" fruit first. But, let's face it, most people couldn't be arsed to fix their mildly-bad implementation of democracy. What makes you think they'd be willing to try fix the horrible government in a different country/continent?
  - Alleluja 12y ago
    I will omit other comments you made as I might agree on them or not really care that much. Here is an important (to me!) point that you made: >I'm not American, so I can't comment on that part. But in general, I agree with you, people need to be more outraged about everything in general. Whether it's something horrible in Russia, or mildly horrible in America, it should spark outrage/action. You say people need to be more outraged. I say they need to look into things in a balanced way. If you watch Russia TV only and nothing else, there is a very good chance you will be outraged about a few dozen Guantanamo prisoners being tortured not even knowing at all that they media outlet trying to make you angry about it, is at the same time sponsored by organization (KGB, Russian Government) that took part in a genocide of over 1 milion people. If you listen just to Geobbels and never turn on BBC, you are outraged about wrong stuff (you said that), or your opinions are out of balance (that's what I would say).

shit_parade 12y ago

So your argument is yeah we torture and murder people without cause but this other guy over there, he tortures and kills even more people so it's okay. America is also recently responsible for hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties in Iraq and surrounding countries. We continue to support a military junta in Egypt -- anyone want to dredge up Obama's beautiful speech about freedom he made in Cairo? No one has really responded to my question, how bad must your employer be, apparently torture isn't bad enough, before you refuse to work for him, or at least stop applauding people who sign up to go help out at the torture club.

Alleluja 12y ago
The problem with people like you is that if we don't do anything inn Syria then you say people die. And if we do something you say because we did something people die. Very hard to please you.
- shit_parade 12y ago
  This is not a response to my question. Also, stop attributing arguments to me and that I'm not making here. Judged by their actions, American policy makers have zero interest in improving the life's of ordinary civilians throughout the middle east. We ignored Bahrain, we are actively supporting the Egyptian junta, we arm random Syrian rebels, we indisrimately bomb the former remnants of Iraq. But answer my original question, you seem to be fully willing to work for and defend n entity that tortures and murders without cause, would you also work for a mass genocidal killer? How is it controversial to express repugnance for those willing to abet torture?